I don't think the Forsaken are good examples - Edit 1
Before modification by Sidious at 08/12/2012 06:21:09 AM
I don't think you need SUPREME skill to be Egwene level and pose a threat to the Foresaken. You might need that level of skill to be able to guarantee your survival every single time, but not if you want to pose a reasonable threat.
I think you're shooting your own argument about the importance of strength in the foot by insisting you need enormous skill to overcome the strength gap between Egwene and the Foresaken. Demandred would be content with a mere angreal then, to challenge Rand. He wants a sa'angreal, though, even though he's just a little less skilled than Rand.
I think you're shooting your own argument about the importance of strength in the foot by insisting you need enormous skill to overcome the strength gap between Egwene and the Foresaken. Demandred would be content with a mere angreal then, to challenge Rand. He wants a sa'angreal, though, even though he's just a little less skilled than Rand.
I'm not making an argument about the strength gap. The Forsaken are also among the most skilled Channelers who ever lived. Coupled with being among the strongest channelers who ever lived means if you are weaker than they are you must be MORE skilled than they are in order to stand a chance. Egwene level is clearly a step lower than Forsaken, thus for someone of that level to compete with an individual such as Graendal or Demandred they would need to be supremely skilled or they would get destroyed pretty quickly. It's akin to a boxing match where you are already giving up size and reach to you opponent, if you also give up skill you are heading for pain.
Moghedien and Asmodean showed a shocking lack of skill, but that may not be too surprising if you consider one was essentially an investment banker and the other a musician. Not exactly trained for dueling and the odds of them having to face off against an equal or greater force in their own Age would have been slim. And neither of them initiated the duels so they started off on the defensive from the beginning.
With that said even someone like Nynaeve who is on par with the Forsaken would need the skill to match them or to truly be a threat. Graendal herself makes note of it in TOM when she decides she must kill Nynaeve if Nynaeve has figured out how to unravel Compulsion ... Suddenly Nynaeve became a skilled opponent and thus a threat. Graendal had just as clearly been keeping tabs on Nynaeve looking for signs of such skills.
Mesaana says much the same of Egwene when she tells Sheriam that Egwene must be removed as Amyrlin. She isn't directly speaking of OP matters, but she acknowledged that Egwene was not what they wanted in the role ... They wanted a girl not a woman. It's a clear indication that the Forsaken do not wish to face off against opponents with any type of skill. This theme has gotten more pronounced throughout the series as the remaining Forsaken have hunkered down into their tasks. They are much more cunning and skillful in their attacks ... Even the ones that fall apart.
And of course Demandred wants the advantage of a sa'angreal ... That's the variable he has the most control over! Why face a possible loss if you can magnify your strength by 10x and not worry about LTTs superior skill ... There is a point when overwhelming strength differential makes any duel a moot point.
I don't really think that you can exceed the Forsaken in skill. They come from an Age where they were really well trained and they had a hundred years during the Collapse to alter it to destruction, and another ten to use it fully. Apart from that, they're too well rounded off as channelers. Semirhage's offhand weave to dissolve Cabriana's clothes is so complex that it stirs fear in the Aes Sedai. There is such a big gap. This isn't mindless Forsaken worshipping - I think the same of LTT and anyone else who suddenly appears in the Third Age. Maybe some herbalist in the destroyed future discovers the cure for cancer, but that doesn't make them as informed and skilled as a modern doctor.
I have no problem believing that Egwene with a lot of her skills and Talents could fight Alivia and stand her ground - even win. However, Alivia also doesn't need to be as skilled to win. She enters the fight with a heavy advantage. Merely sending a high powered shield after Egwene will cause a great deal of havoc. The more strength Egwene has to put into slicing Alivia's flows, the less she has for an offensive, so she would need to plan.
As for the Asmodean/Rand and Moghedien/Nynaeve fights, I think we're a little unfair. In all those battles the Forsaken were suddenly matched directly in strength. It's like being a martial arts master and someone is suddenly on you and you are grappling hands. It's difficult to be impressive if your hands are locked. Demandred probably had a similar experience - he had to use all his strength to slice Flinn's flows and thereafter he spent the rest of the time using his power to avoid death. If you can get a strong channeler on the back foot then they have no time to use their skill to weave anything. It becomes a brawl. In all the Forsaken battles at the Cleansing where the Forsaken struck first i.e. Graendal, Aran'gar, Cyndane - the Light were killed or injured because they could use their skill. Verin was almost instantly overwhelmed by reversing alone.