Re: this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power
DomA Send a noteboard - 20/11/2012 02:45:18 PM
Skill clearly sets the top 6 apart ... Ishamael, Lanfear, Demandred, Sammael, Graendal, Semirhage clearly had the best combination of Power, skill and savvy. Aginor and the others could have had more strength, but either skill or personality kept them from the highest rungs.
Perhaps they're all close in raw strength, and perhaps they're not so close as that. The fact you guys still argue over their strengths after 13 books is because we don't have enough information to be certain of anything. And one of the main reasons we don't is because the Chosen themselves tend to factor their raw strength advantages or disadvantages for much, much less than third age channellers whose knowledge of the OP is minimal and forcing them to rely on simpler tricks most often dependent on raw strength.
The Chosen come from an Age where personal angreal and mixed gender circles were common place. None of them is stupid enough to rely primarily on strength when they've learned to fight in a War where a woman like Lanfear might have to fight for her life against a much weaker underling who suddenly acquired an angreal. They've all learned to rely on their best skills.
Raw strengths comparisons don't come naturally to them the way it does for third age Aes Sedai. Some of them might be very close in raw strength, I tend to think there might be some gaps larger than we think, but I think the differences whatever they are aren't very apparent anyway, far less than among AS, because they all come from the same crucible of pre-Collapse full Aes Sedai training, while OP knowledge vary a very great deal more between third Age channelers (groups, ajah, individuals keep some of their discoveries secret). Not only that, but they've all fought in the same war, picked up a lot of the same tricks developed for destruction and fighting other channellers.
We see this reflected a lot in the series. It's in their vastly superior knowledge and skills the Chosen systematically glorify themselves with (and they're keener to compare their special skills, their non-OP related skills and weaknesses and their respective cunning than anything else), while among third Agers, it's the raw strength of the Forsaken they find amazing and intimidating... They push this to the point of absurdity, like believing that the Cleansing was the female Forsaken working together...
We see the Forsaken barely ever referring to their respective strengths. They know all thirteen have pretty much the same basic knowledge and training, and all of them have learned to use their best skills rather than rely on their strength. In the pre-Shadow days, they wouldn't have let their strength limit them, they simply had to use an angreal at need. Even Lanfear knows better than to count on a gap between her and Graendal, Moghedien and Mesaana, when that gap might be filled at any time by an hidden angreal.
How many standard deviations is Lanfear
15/11/2012 06:04:39 PM
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Hmm...
15/11/2012 07:25:34 PM
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see we CAN agree on stuff
15/11/2012 07:56:12 PM
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18/11/2012 08:37:22 PM
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Re:
18/11/2012 11:07:17 PM
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Re:
19/11/2012 05:16:00 AM
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19/11/2012 03:13:01 PM
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They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5%
19/11/2012 03:19:19 PM
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Re: They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5%
19/11/2012 04:01:43 PM
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Re: They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5%
19/11/2012 09:04:04 PM
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Hmmm...
20/11/2012 02:08:40 AM
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Perhaps, but Egwene is also being a bit dramatic in the scene as she managed
20/11/2012 04:28:57 AM
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Nope...
20/11/2012 03:13:13 PM
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I believe she is being over dramatic
20/11/2012 03:26:24 PM
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Keep believing that...
20/11/2012 03:30:14 PM
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*shrugs*
20/11/2012 03:49:10 PM
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Tired and forkroot are the same now?
20/11/2012 03:55:22 PM
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No it's the literary device
20/11/2012 04:04:28 PM
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Impossible. Daigian is exactly 0.32SD below the mean
19/11/2012 11:06:04 AM
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You keep saying that, but it is either a linear or a non-linear distribution
19/11/2012 09:09:32 PM
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That's the whole point. Thanks for finally seeing it.
19/11/2012 09:43:27 PM
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keep believing that ... but you making up numbers isn't really relevant *NM*
20/11/2012 04:29:44 AM
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Please show me a number that is made up. The 0.32SD for Daigian is a rule of statistics.
20/11/2012 07:15:48 AM
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Ugh. I hate power level discussions. For real world applications, it should be kind of meaningless
16/11/2012 10:28:49 PM
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I don't really agree
18/11/2012 08:40:53 PM
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Perhaps, but we've seen that a MUCH weaker Channeler can win in a duel
19/11/2012 09:13:48 PM
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Re: Perhaps, but we've seen that a MUCH weaker Channeler can win in a duel
20/11/2012 08:10:01 AM
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Since I've proven that it's not a normal distribution in units of absolute strength, SDs don't apply
17/11/2012 07:48:21 PM
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You have proven nothing, except that you have an opinion *NM*
18/11/2012 02:21:35 AM
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You simply don't get it. It is mathematically a fact. There is no opinion involved.
18/11/2012 02:19:40 PM
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Only because you've assigned numeric values. That you created.
18/11/2012 02:40:51 PM
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It doesn't matter what figure you use...
18/11/2012 03:01:56 PM
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What if Daigian is one third Lanfear's strength?
18/11/2012 04:37:58 PM
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Sure you can
18/11/2012 10:09:31 PM
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Re: Sure you can
18/11/2012 10:54:50 PM
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You're right, though its 37.5%
19/11/2012 12:21:29 AM
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Oops, typo!
19/11/2012 02:54:25 AM
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Again, not possible, due to Daigian being just 0.3SD below the Mean
19/11/2012 08:37:01 AM
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Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys...
19/11/2012 04:05:12 PM
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Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys...
19/11/2012 05:55:02 PM
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Egwene is about as strong as Melaine and Amys combined
19/11/2012 09:19:50 PM
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Re: Egwene is about as strong as Melaine and Amys combined
20/11/2012 02:11:26 AM
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Forkroot in every case
20/11/2012 04:32:26 AM
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No!
20/11/2012 03:15:16 PM
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I'm not going to go re-read the books to you on this
20/11/2012 03:39:46 PM
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You need to read it for yourself, since you're completely confused.
20/11/2012 03:54:26 PM
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Not going to argue this with you.
20/11/2012 04:09:44 PM
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Your own example disproved your point...
20/11/2012 04:39:25 PM
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let's see, she's both asleep and would need hours to regain her strength
20/11/2012 04:43:17 PM
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Enough!
20/11/2012 05:04:06 PM
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LOL ... whatever. You go on believing that ... no one else sees it this way. *NM*
20/11/2012 05:20:52 PM
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Re: Your own example disproved your point...
20/11/2012 05:10:15 PM
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Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than
20/11/2012 05:26:31 PM
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Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys...
20/11/2012 02:26:47 AM
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Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys...
20/11/2012 09:03:40 AM
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Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys...
20/11/2012 02:59:08 PM
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None of this is backed by any evidence...
20/11/2012 03:24:12 PM
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who said Cadsuane was 1.5x Moiraine or more?
20/11/2012 04:03:13 PM
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Nope...
20/11/2012 04:41:35 PM
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wrong
20/11/2012 04:48:50 PM
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Better evidence? LOL!
20/11/2012 03:18:55 PM
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Huh? How did you come to that conclusion?
20/11/2012 04:40:56 PM
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BEcause Cadsuane is close on the heels of Egwene?
20/11/2012 05:10:50 PM
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I'm not arguing that. I agree that Cadsuane is pretty close to Egwene
20/11/2012 05:50:34 PM
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Interesting, but let's go with your figures...
19/11/2012 06:54:54 AM
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Indeed
19/11/2012 08:16:44 AM
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Rand is sort of a special case
20/11/2012 04:25:02 AM
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Regarding Mesaana...
20/11/2012 08:42:56 AM
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You continue to mix two things
20/11/2012 03:24:44 PM
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No
20/11/2012 04:54:19 PM
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You are mistaken
20/11/2012 05:04:40 PM
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Probably, but the AS have no idea what 37.5% means
19/11/2012 02:59:26 AM
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It's irrelevant
19/11/2012 03:46:42 AM
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Agreed. Daigian is the marker of the absolute bottom of Aes Sedai strength.
19/11/2012 06:55:41 AM
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Daigian
19/11/2012 08:12:19 AM
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It is a direct marker due to RJ's quote
19/11/2012 08:50:26 AM
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You missed my point
19/11/2012 09:08:42 AM
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Asmodean would never have made the comment about 13 weakest AS
20/11/2012 04:41:11 AM
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Re: Asmodean would never have made the comment about 13 weakest AS
20/11/2012 09:07:49 AM
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Re: Sure you can
19/11/2012 09:22:09 AM
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Care to explain this...
19/11/2012 05:06:28 PM
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Indeed
20/11/2012 07:16:37 AM
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Explained far better than I ever could. Bravo.
20/11/2012 07:30:29 AM
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Well duh.
20/11/2012 02:57:24 PM
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Incorrect.
20/11/2012 04:28:07 PM
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No
20/11/2012 04:44:16 PM
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You're integrating without lower limits...
20/11/2012 02:55:06 PM
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We are not talking about a normal distribution in any case
20/11/2012 04:44:24 AM
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Re: We are not talking about a normal distribution in any case
20/11/2012 07:02:47 AM
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You must tell me of this special math...
20/11/2012 03:10:09 PM
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Re: You must tell me of this special math...
20/11/2012 04:29:40 PM
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Morghase is a placeholder...
20/11/2012 04:45:42 PM
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Well...
18/11/2012 08:43:59 PM
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Re: Well...
19/11/2012 03:40:44 PM
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Wow.
19/11/2012 03:53:47 PM
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Well then you're both wrong I'm afraid
19/11/2012 06:09:36 PM
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Re: Well then you're both wrong I'm afraid
19/11/2012 07:42:58 PM
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this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power
20/11/2012 04:51:20 AM
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Re: this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power
20/11/2012 02:45:18 PM
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I think RJ went out of his way to keep strength a bit of a mystery
20/11/2012 08:42:44 PM
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Math gurus...Is it possible to find the missing variable...
21/11/2012 05:12:24 PM
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the problem is that the Mean is not going to tell us much really
22/11/2012 02:55:03 AM
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Re: the problem is that the Mean is not going to tell us much really
22/11/2012 03:15:33 AM
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I do not think you can calculate the Mean without knowing the Units of Power
22/11/2012 03:53:59 AM
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