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Some points Sidious Send a noteboard - 19/11/2012 06:03:00 PM
You can't really substantiate that opinion. There are several quotes stating that Ishamael equalled Lews Therin in power.


But none of them is verbatim, all of them are interpretations from AOL texts by third agers, and we cban't be sure the texts themselves truly referred to his OP raw strength and not to the power he wielded in the Shadow being comparable to LTT's in the Light. The other problem is that we know this comes from AS interpretation of AOL texts (or worse, Breaking and post-Breaking ones), and today's AS judge "power" on raw saidar potential, whereas all the signs in the series suggest AOLers also include skills when they speak of an Aes Sedai's power (they differentiate between strength and global power), that raw strength is only a factor in their global description (which only makes sense in a world full of angreal...). Mierin was as strong as any woman, yet she was only an Aes Sedai of middling power who never achieved anything worthy of a third name honorific. Her OP skills musn't be so amazing for someone as strong, she was a good OP scientist, good enough to enter the Collam Daan, but by the standards of her Age not remarkable, not enough to get any public attention for her skills. Just that might suggest she's not as powerful as LTT, that her mastery over saidar isn't enough to match his strength in saidin by higher efficiency.

The problem with Ishamael being so strong in saidin is that if he is, combined with his status as Nae'blis, it's extremely hard to understand why Demandred doesn't hate him just as much as he hates LTT. He envies Moridin's status, but nothing else. Demandred acts toward Moridin as if he is the stronger of the two.

Moridin is clearly strong, but I don't think we can be in any way certain of his exact strength, not even how he compares in raw strength to Demandred (who was second only to LTT) or Aginor (who had rare amazing skills in some areas that could very well taint his description as "powerful", unless we have a direct quote Dashiva matches Rand or almost in raw strength).



I've been saying this for ten years. Great to see you saying it so unexpectedly.

Totally agree.


Well I've been saying for years now the Forsaken info from the AOL is unreliable unless it comes from one of them directly or from LTT's memories, and even then we have to pay great attention to the context.

We don't agree on all things in this. For instance it's clear LTT and Bel Medar developped great fighting/warfare related skills, but I don't agree the quotes about them being "the greatest of the Age" are reliable to judge of their OP skills. All we can be certain of is that it refers to their social status. Both were Guild administrators of very high standing, and both were high profile public figures (novelists, it appears - Jordan's little joke). It's fairly doubtful they were the best channelers of their time pre WOS. Neither were probably matches, not even close, for the best channelers at the Collam Daan. There's only two Chosen we know had exceptional, remarkable OP skills in their Age beyond any doubt, and they're Aginor and Semirhage. Aginor more than Semirhage. AS used the OP for music, so maybe Asmodean shone in that area, but we can't be sure. Graendal's reknown had nothing to do with her skills or strength. For now there's no solid evidence LTT's skills were that exceptional, and by extension Demandred's. The Chosen (incl. Demandred) all seem to find Mesaana's knowledge reliable and useful, for instance, and she was a failed OP scholar... That gives an idea where the top scientists stood, if the Chosen consider Mesaana knowledgeable (and curiously, none of them ever referred to Lanfear's scholarly knowledge... which highly suggests her speciality was fairly narrow, and obviously it was tel'aran'rhiod)...


There's no evidence that Aginor was skilled with the OP, and I would hazard to say that he was not particularly skilled. He merely understood the nature of life better than anyone alive at the time. It's more than likely he used various ter'angreal to obtain his goals, and there's not much proof that he personally channeled his own creations using immense skill.

On a purely empirical basis, the Forsaken with the greatest OP skill was Semirhage, because she could heal so prolifically. Graendal did not work skillfully with the OP, contrary what most people believe, she used mental manipulation without the Power, but you mentioned this.

I don't particularly agree with you regarding Lews Therin. I think its implied that overall he was the most prolific channeler. It's hinted very subtly but Asmodean mentions that only Lews Therin, Demandred and Semirhage could block a gateway - it's a small pointer. There are others, but Lanfear did say that he was as strong as any channeler alive, and that didn't mean only in strength. I do think that Lews Therin/Barid Bel spent a lot of their time refining their OP abilities. It was a likely path to status, and they both enjoyed accolades. There were channelers with huge individual Talents (Lews Therin mentions several by name), but overall these two had the highest strength and skill combination.
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How many standard deviations is Lanfear - 15/11/2012 06:04:39 PM 2075 Views
Well... - 15/11/2012 07:02:45 PM 1113 Views
Hmm... - 15/11/2012 07:25:34 PM 1213 Views
see we CAN agree on stuff - 15/11/2012 07:56:12 PM 1065 Views
- 18/11/2012 08:37:22 PM 959 Views
We've always been close with everything except the scale - 18/11/2012 10:29:07 PM 995 Views
Re: - 18/11/2012 11:07:17 PM 1164 Views
Re: - 19/11/2012 05:16:00 AM 992 Views
Re: - 19/11/2012 03:13:01 PM 997 Views
They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 03:19:19 PM 1001 Views
Re: They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 04:01:43 PM 1206 Views
Re: They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 09:04:04 PM 951 Views
Hmmm... - 20/11/2012 02:08:40 AM 1019 Views
Perhaps, but Egwene is also being a bit dramatic in the scene as she managed - 20/11/2012 04:28:57 AM 976 Views
Nope... - 20/11/2012 03:13:13 PM 1026 Views
I believe she is being over dramatic - 20/11/2012 03:26:24 PM 926 Views
Keep believing that... - 20/11/2012 03:30:14 PM 1055 Views
*shrugs* - 20/11/2012 03:49:10 PM 1005 Views
Tired and forkroot are the same now? - 20/11/2012 03:55:22 PM 911 Views
No it's the literary device - 20/11/2012 04:04:28 PM 1031 Views
This is getting ridiculous... - 20/11/2012 04:43:13 PM 912 Views
You are missing my point completely - 20/11/2012 04:50:46 PM 872 Views
Impossible. Daigian is exactly 0.32SD below the mean - 19/11/2012 11:06:04 AM 975 Views
You keep saying that, but it is either a linear or a non-linear distribution - 19/11/2012 09:09:32 PM 1031 Views
That's the whole point. Thanks for finally seeing it. - 19/11/2012 09:43:27 PM 994 Views
keep believing that ... but you making up numbers isn't really relevant *NM* - 20/11/2012 04:29:44 AM 655 Views
Please show me a number that is made up. The 0.32SD for Daigian is a rule of statistics. - 20/11/2012 07:15:48 AM 956 Views
Go read Fionwe's post about it *NM* - 20/11/2012 02:33:19 PM 670 Views
Is that before or after she started juicing? - 15/11/2012 11:04:14 PM 970 Views
Wouldn't it be 1 in 105 million? - 21/11/2012 04:56:19 PM 822 Views
Are you sure that it is a normal distribution? - 16/11/2012 04:21:02 PM 1045 Views
Ugh. I hate power level discussions. For real world applications, it should be kind of meaningless - 16/11/2012 10:28:49 PM 947 Views
I don't really agree - 18/11/2012 08:40:53 PM 891 Views
Perhaps, but we've seen that a MUCH weaker Channeler can win in a duel - 19/11/2012 09:13:48 PM 962 Views
Re: Perhaps, but we've seen that a MUCH weaker Channeler can win in a duel - 20/11/2012 08:10:01 AM 932 Views
probably ... Lanfear/Cyndane is clearly remarkably skilled - 20/11/2012 02:35:09 PM 972 Views
Since I've proven that it's not a normal distribution in units of absolute strength, SDs don't apply - 17/11/2012 07:48:21 PM 990 Views
You have proven nothing, except that you have an opinion *NM* - 18/11/2012 02:21:35 AM 638 Views
You simply don't get it. It is mathematically a fact. There is no opinion involved. - 18/11/2012 02:19:40 PM 835 Views
Only because you've assigned numeric values. That you created. - 18/11/2012 02:40:51 PM 959 Views
It doesn't matter what figure you use... - 18/11/2012 03:01:56 PM 840 Views
What if Daigian is one third Lanfear's strength? - 18/11/2012 04:37:58 PM 982 Views
We have a limit for Daigian's strength, as you well know. - 18/11/2012 05:41:49 PM 932 Views
Are you kidding me? - 18/11/2012 09:07:38 PM 1095 Views
Sure you can - 18/11/2012 10:09:31 PM 993 Views
Re: Sure you can - 18/11/2012 10:54:50 PM 942 Views
You're right, though its 37.5% - 19/11/2012 12:21:29 AM 907 Views
Oops, typo! - 19/11/2012 02:54:25 AM 978 Views
Again, not possible, due to Daigian being just 0.3SD below the Mean - 19/11/2012 08:37:01 AM 929 Views
Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 19/11/2012 04:05:12 PM 872 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 19/11/2012 05:55:02 PM 799 Views
Egwene is about as strong as Melaine and Amys combined - 19/11/2012 09:19:50 PM 917 Views
Re: Egwene is about as strong as Melaine and Amys combined - 20/11/2012 02:11:26 AM 946 Views
Forkroot in every case - 20/11/2012 04:32:26 AM 926 Views
No! - 20/11/2012 03:15:16 PM 908 Views
I'm not going to go re-read the books to you on this - 20/11/2012 03:39:46 PM 926 Views
You need to read it for yourself, since you're completely confused. - 20/11/2012 03:54:26 PM 890 Views
Not going to argue this with you. - 20/11/2012 04:09:44 PM 862 Views
Your own example disproved your point... - 20/11/2012 04:39:25 PM 959 Views
let's see, she's both asleep and would need hours to regain her strength - 20/11/2012 04:43:17 PM 850 Views
Enough! - 20/11/2012 05:04:06 PM 938 Views
LOL ... whatever. You go on believing that ... no one else sees it this way. *NM* - 20/11/2012 05:20:52 PM 626 Views
What a brilliant argument! - 20/11/2012 05:25:18 PM 973 Views
this is why I refuse to continue this debate - 20/11/2012 05:31:11 PM 887 Views
Re: Your own example disproved your point... - 20/11/2012 05:10:15 PM 981 Views
Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:26:31 PM 985 Views
Re: Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:31:50 PM 925 Views
Re: Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:42:53 PM 922 Views
Excuse me? - 20/11/2012 05:28:48 PM 977 Views
see we can agree on the relative strength of Egwene v. Forsaken - 20/11/2012 05:35:07 PM 926 Views
??? - 20/11/2012 05:37:01 PM 1002 Views
2 middling sisters - 20/11/2012 05:45:27 PM 947 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 02:26:47 AM 858 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 09:03:40 AM 907 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 02:59:08 PM 944 Views
None of this is backed by any evidence... - 20/11/2012 03:24:12 PM 860 Views
who said Cadsuane was 1.5x Moiraine or more? - 20/11/2012 04:03:13 PM 862 Views
Nope... - 20/11/2012 04:41:35 PM 904 Views
wrong - 20/11/2012 04:48:50 PM 837 Views
My bad. Mized up 1/3 and 2/3. - 20/11/2012 05:05:05 PM 929 Views
gotcha *NM* - 20/11/2012 05:46:21 PM 585 Views
Better evidence? LOL! - 20/11/2012 03:18:55 PM 909 Views
Huh? How did you come to that conclusion? - 20/11/2012 04:40:56 PM 900 Views
Exactly *NM* - 20/11/2012 04:55:28 PM 873 Views
BEcause Cadsuane is close on the heels of Egwene? - 20/11/2012 05:10:50 PM 819 Views
I'm not arguing that. I agree that Cadsuane is pretty close to Egwene - 20/11/2012 05:50:34 PM 925 Views
Re: Better evidence? LOL! - 20/11/2012 05:00:47 PM 832 Views
Interesting, but let's go with your figures... - 19/11/2012 06:54:54 AM 973 Views
Indeed - 19/11/2012 08:16:44 AM 1013 Views
Rand is sort of a special case - 20/11/2012 04:25:02 AM 839 Views
Regarding Mesaana... - 20/11/2012 08:42:56 AM 911 Views
You continue to mix two things - 20/11/2012 03:24:44 PM 840 Views
No - 20/11/2012 04:54:19 PM 1059 Views
You are mistaken - 20/11/2012 05:04:40 PM 919 Views
Yes she did Darius! - 20/11/2012 05:27:36 PM 856 Views
Yet there is no duel - 20/11/2012 06:01:17 PM 839 Views
Explain the .3xSD thing to me... - 19/11/2012 04:58:57 PM 1081 Views
Probably, but the AS have no idea what 37.5% means - 19/11/2012 02:59:26 AM 863 Views
It's irrelevant - 19/11/2012 03:46:42 AM 934 Views
Agreed. Daigian is the marker of the absolute bottom of Aes Sedai strength. - 19/11/2012 06:55:41 AM 900 Views
Daigian - 19/11/2012 08:12:19 AM 922 Views
It is a direct marker due to RJ's quote - 19/11/2012 08:50:26 AM 944 Views
You missed my point - 19/11/2012 09:08:42 AM 879 Views
Re: You missed my point - 19/11/2012 02:18:33 PM 952 Views
Asmodean would never have made the comment about 13 weakest AS - 20/11/2012 04:41:11 AM 888 Views
Re: Asmodean would never have made the comment about 13 weakest AS - 20/11/2012 09:07:49 AM 866 Views
Which would make an average AS around a 30 - 20/11/2012 04:58:56 PM 737 Views
Re: Sure you can - 19/11/2012 09:22:09 AM 1008 Views
Care to explain this... - 19/11/2012 05:06:28 PM 849 Views
Indeed - 20/11/2012 07:16:37 AM 1071 Views
Explained far better than I ever could. Bravo. - 20/11/2012 07:30:29 AM 887 Views
Well duh. - 20/11/2012 02:57:24 PM 994 Views
Incorrect. - 20/11/2012 04:28:07 PM 979 Views
No - 20/11/2012 04:44:16 PM 954 Views
Re: No - 20/11/2012 04:48:36 PM 950 Views
That depends... - 20/11/2012 05:18:46 PM 820 Views
Re: That depends... - 20/11/2012 05:31:03 PM 1248 Views
You're integrating without lower limits... - 20/11/2012 02:55:06 PM 930 Views
Re: You're integrating without lower limits... - 20/11/2012 04:37:57 PM 962 Views
It matters. - 20/11/2012 05:22:40 PM 928 Views
We are not talking about a normal distribution in any case - 20/11/2012 04:44:24 AM 773 Views
Re: We are not talking about a normal distribution in any case - 20/11/2012 07:02:47 AM 966 Views
You must tell me of this special math... - 20/11/2012 03:10:09 PM 860 Views
Re: You must tell me of this special math... - 20/11/2012 04:29:40 PM 896 Views
Morghase is a placeholder... - 20/11/2012 04:45:42 PM 963 Views
Re: Morghase is a placeholder... - 20/11/2012 04:49:54 PM 1149 Views
Why? - 20/11/2012 05:23:29 PM 943 Views
Re: Why? - 20/11/2012 05:36:45 PM 1118 Views
Well... - 18/11/2012 08:43:59 PM 996 Views
Re: Well... - 19/11/2012 03:40:44 PM 976 Views
Wow. - 19/11/2012 03:53:47 PM 1023 Views
Re: Wow. - 19/11/2012 04:26:09 PM 1030 Views
Some points - 19/11/2012 06:03:00 PM 1034 Views
Well then you're both wrong I'm afraid - 19/11/2012 06:09:36 PM 872 Views
Re: Well then you're both wrong I'm afraid - 19/11/2012 07:42:58 PM 774 Views
this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power - 20/11/2012 04:51:20 AM 968 Views
Agreed - 20/11/2012 08:13:37 AM 997 Views
probably - 20/11/2012 06:18:45 PM 880 Views
Re: this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power - 20/11/2012 02:45:18 PM 909 Views
I think RJ went out of his way to keep strength a bit of a mystery - 20/11/2012 08:42:44 PM 914 Views
Indeed... - 21/11/2012 05:44:18 PM 891 Views
I agree - 22/11/2012 01:43:02 AM 1140 Views
Math gurus...Is it possible to find the missing variable... - 21/11/2012 05:12:24 PM 918 Views
the problem is that the Mean is not going to tell us much really - 22/11/2012 02:55:03 AM 982 Views
Re: the problem is that the Mean is not going to tell us much really - 22/11/2012 03:15:33 AM 1273 Views
I do not think you can calculate the Mean without knowing the Units of Power - 22/11/2012 03:53:59 AM 1071 Views
Re: Math gurus...Is it possible to find the missing variable... - 23/11/2012 02:59:12 PM 1205 Views
Disregard this post *NM* - 23/11/2012 03:02:24 PM 840 Views

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