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Re: Wow. DomA Send a noteboard - 19/11/2012 04:26:09 PM
You can't really substantiate that opinion. There are several quotes stating that Ishamael equalled Lews Therin in power.


But none of them is verbatim, all of them are interpretations from AOL texts by third agers, and we cban't be sure the texts themselves truly referred to his OP raw strength and not to the power he wielded in the Shadow being comparable to LTT's in the Light. The other problem is that we know this comes from AS interpretation of AOL texts (or worse, Breaking and post-Breaking ones), and today's AS judge "power" on raw saidar potential, whereas all the signs in the series suggest AOLers also include skills when they speak of an Aes Sedai's power (they differentiate between strength and global power), that raw strength is only a factor in their global description (which only makes sense in a world full of angreal...). Mierin was as strong as any woman, yet she was only an Aes Sedai of middling power who never achieved anything worthy of a third name honorific. Her OP skills musn't be so amazing for someone as strong, she was a good OP scientist, good enough to enter the Collam Daan, but by the standards of her Age not remarkable, not enough to get any public attention for her skills. Just that might suggest she's not as powerful as LTT, that her mastery over saidar isn't enough to match his strength in saidin by higher efficiency.

The problem with Ishamael being so strong in saidin is that if he is, combined with his status as Nae'blis, it's extremely hard to understand why Demandred doesn't hate him just as much as he hates LTT. He envies Moridin's status, but nothing else. Demandred acts toward Moridin as if he is the stronger of the two.

Moridin is clearly strong, but I don't think we can be in any way certain of his exact strength, not even how he compares in raw strength to Demandred (who was second only to LTT) or Aginor (who had rare amazing skills in some areas that could very well taint his description as "powerful", unless we have a direct quote Dashiva matches Rand or almost in raw strength).



I've been saying this for ten years. Great to see you saying it so unexpectedly.

Totally agree.


Well I've been saying for years now the Forsaken info from the AOL is unreliable unless it comes from one of them directly or from LTT's memories, and even then we have to pay great attention to the context.

We don't agree on all things in this. For instance it's clear LTT and Bel Medar developped great fighting/warfare related skills, but I don't agree the quotes about them being "the greatest of the Age" are reliable to judge of their OP skills. All we can be certain of is that it refers to their social status. Both were Guild administrators of very high standing, and both were high profile public figures (novelists, it appears - Jordan's little joke). It's fairly doubtful they were the best channelers of their time pre WOS. Neither were probably matches, not even close, for the best channelers at the Collam Daan. There's only two Chosen we know had exceptional, remarkable OP skills in their Age beyond any doubt, and they're Aginor and Semirhage. Aginor more than Semirhage. AS used the OP for music, so maybe Asmodean shone in that area, but we can't be sure. Graendal's reknown had nothing to do with her skills or strength. For now there's no solid evidence LTT's skills were that exceptional, and by extension Demandred's. The Chosen (incl. Demandred) all seem to find Mesaana's knowledge reliable and useful, for instance, and she was a failed OP scholar... That gives an idea where the top scientists stood, if the Chosen consider Mesaana knowledgeable (and curiously, none of them ever referred to Lanfear's scholarly knowledge... which highly suggests her speciality was fairly narrow, and obviously it was tel'aran'rhiod)...
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How many standard deviations is Lanfear - 15/11/2012 06:04:39 PM 2201 Views
Well... - 15/11/2012 07:02:45 PM 1208 Views
Hmm... - 15/11/2012 07:25:34 PM 1338 Views
see we CAN agree on stuff - 15/11/2012 07:56:12 PM 1174 Views
- 18/11/2012 08:37:22 PM 1047 Views
We've always been close with everything except the scale - 18/11/2012 10:29:07 PM 1092 Views
Re: - 18/11/2012 11:07:17 PM 1264 Views
Re: - 19/11/2012 05:16:00 AM 1096 Views
Re: - 19/11/2012 03:13:01 PM 1084 Views
They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 03:19:19 PM 1105 Views
Re: They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 04:01:43 PM 1305 Views
Re: They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 09:04:04 PM 1058 Views
Hmmm... - 20/11/2012 02:08:40 AM 1129 Views
Perhaps, but Egwene is also being a bit dramatic in the scene as she managed - 20/11/2012 04:28:57 AM 1077 Views
Nope... - 20/11/2012 03:13:13 PM 1131 Views
I believe she is being over dramatic - 20/11/2012 03:26:24 PM 1022 Views
Keep believing that... - 20/11/2012 03:30:14 PM 1162 Views
*shrugs* - 20/11/2012 03:49:10 PM 1109 Views
Tired and forkroot are the same now? - 20/11/2012 03:55:22 PM 1011 Views
No it's the literary device - 20/11/2012 04:04:28 PM 1143 Views
This is getting ridiculous... - 20/11/2012 04:43:13 PM 1015 Views
You are missing my point completely - 20/11/2012 04:50:46 PM 982 Views
Impossible. Daigian is exactly 0.32SD below the mean - 19/11/2012 11:06:04 AM 1085 Views
You keep saying that, but it is either a linear or a non-linear distribution - 19/11/2012 09:09:32 PM 1138 Views
That's the whole point. Thanks for finally seeing it. - 19/11/2012 09:43:27 PM 1093 Views
keep believing that ... but you making up numbers isn't really relevant *NM* - 20/11/2012 04:29:44 AM 694 Views
Please show me a number that is made up. The 0.32SD for Daigian is a rule of statistics. - 20/11/2012 07:15:48 AM 1051 Views
Go read Fionwe's post about it *NM* - 20/11/2012 02:33:19 PM 696 Views
Is that before or after she started juicing? - 15/11/2012 11:04:14 PM 1081 Views
Wouldn't it be 1 in 105 million? - 21/11/2012 04:56:19 PM 931 Views
Are you sure that it is a normal distribution? - 16/11/2012 04:21:02 PM 1145 Views
Ugh. I hate power level discussions. For real world applications, it should be kind of meaningless - 16/11/2012 10:28:49 PM 1036 Views
I don't really agree - 18/11/2012 08:40:53 PM 1011 Views
Perhaps, but we've seen that a MUCH weaker Channeler can win in a duel - 19/11/2012 09:13:48 PM 1059 Views
Re: Perhaps, but we've seen that a MUCH weaker Channeler can win in a duel - 20/11/2012 08:10:01 AM 1030 Views
probably ... Lanfear/Cyndane is clearly remarkably skilled - 20/11/2012 02:35:09 PM 1072 Views
Since I've proven that it's not a normal distribution in units of absolute strength, SDs don't apply - 17/11/2012 07:48:21 PM 1087 Views
You have proven nothing, except that you have an opinion *NM* - 18/11/2012 02:21:35 AM 668 Views
You simply don't get it. It is mathematically a fact. There is no opinion involved. - 18/11/2012 02:19:40 PM 923 Views
Only because you've assigned numeric values. That you created. - 18/11/2012 02:40:51 PM 1056 Views
It doesn't matter what figure you use... - 18/11/2012 03:01:56 PM 933 Views
What if Daigian is one third Lanfear's strength? - 18/11/2012 04:37:58 PM 1089 Views
We have a limit for Daigian's strength, as you well know. - 18/11/2012 05:41:49 PM 1056 Views
Are you kidding me? - 18/11/2012 09:07:38 PM 1184 Views
Sure you can - 18/11/2012 10:09:31 PM 1087 Views
Re: Sure you can - 18/11/2012 10:54:50 PM 1056 Views
You're right, though its 37.5% - 19/11/2012 12:21:29 AM 1009 Views
Oops, typo! - 19/11/2012 02:54:25 AM 1065 Views
Again, not possible, due to Daigian being just 0.3SD below the Mean - 19/11/2012 08:37:01 AM 1019 Views
Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 19/11/2012 04:05:12 PM 941 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 19/11/2012 05:55:02 PM 901 Views
Egwene is about as strong as Melaine and Amys combined - 19/11/2012 09:19:50 PM 1021 Views
Re: Egwene is about as strong as Melaine and Amys combined - 20/11/2012 02:11:26 AM 1056 Views
Forkroot in every case - 20/11/2012 04:32:26 AM 1018 Views
No! - 20/11/2012 03:15:16 PM 1004 Views
I'm not going to go re-read the books to you on this - 20/11/2012 03:39:46 PM 1033 Views
You need to read it for yourself, since you're completely confused. - 20/11/2012 03:54:26 PM 987 Views
Not going to argue this with you. - 20/11/2012 04:09:44 PM 949 Views
Your own example disproved your point... - 20/11/2012 04:39:25 PM 1065 Views
let's see, she's both asleep and would need hours to regain her strength - 20/11/2012 04:43:17 PM 962 Views
Enough! - 20/11/2012 05:04:06 PM 1031 Views
LOL ... whatever. You go on believing that ... no one else sees it this way. *NM* - 20/11/2012 05:20:52 PM 660 Views
What a brilliant argument! - 20/11/2012 05:25:18 PM 1045 Views
this is why I refuse to continue this debate - 20/11/2012 05:31:11 PM 984 Views
Re: Your own example disproved your point... - 20/11/2012 05:10:15 PM 1072 Views
Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:26:31 PM 1065 Views
Re: Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:31:50 PM 1036 Views
Re: Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:42:53 PM 1026 Views
Excuse me? - 20/11/2012 05:28:48 PM 1073 Views
see we can agree on the relative strength of Egwene v. Forsaken - 20/11/2012 05:35:07 PM 1035 Views
??? - 20/11/2012 05:37:01 PM 1141 Views
2 middling sisters - 20/11/2012 05:45:27 PM 1053 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 02:26:47 AM 972 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 09:03:40 AM 1008 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 02:59:08 PM 1041 Views
None of this is backed by any evidence... - 20/11/2012 03:24:12 PM 972 Views
who said Cadsuane was 1.5x Moiraine or more? - 20/11/2012 04:03:13 PM 981 Views
Nope... - 20/11/2012 04:41:35 PM 994 Views
wrong - 20/11/2012 04:48:50 PM 932 Views
My bad. Mized up 1/3 and 2/3. - 20/11/2012 05:05:05 PM 1040 Views
gotcha *NM* - 20/11/2012 05:46:21 PM 627 Views
Better evidence? LOL! - 20/11/2012 03:18:55 PM 1020 Views
Huh? How did you come to that conclusion? - 20/11/2012 04:40:56 PM 1013 Views
Exactly *NM* - 20/11/2012 04:55:28 PM 971 Views
BEcause Cadsuane is close on the heels of Egwene? - 20/11/2012 05:10:50 PM 918 Views
I'm not arguing that. I agree that Cadsuane is pretty close to Egwene - 20/11/2012 05:50:34 PM 1030 Views
Re: Better evidence? LOL! - 20/11/2012 05:00:47 PM 932 Views
Interesting, but let's go with your figures... - 19/11/2012 06:54:54 AM 1055 Views
Indeed - 19/11/2012 08:16:44 AM 1113 Views
Rand is sort of a special case - 20/11/2012 04:25:02 AM 962 Views
Regarding Mesaana... - 20/11/2012 08:42:56 AM 1011 Views
You continue to mix two things - 20/11/2012 03:24:44 PM 936 Views
No - 20/11/2012 04:54:19 PM 1167 Views
You are mistaken - 20/11/2012 05:04:40 PM 1021 Views
Yes she did Darius! - 20/11/2012 05:27:36 PM 947 Views
Yet there is no duel - 20/11/2012 06:01:17 PM 947 Views
Explain the .3xSD thing to me... - 19/11/2012 04:58:57 PM 1181 Views
Probably, but the AS have no idea what 37.5% means - 19/11/2012 02:59:26 AM 970 Views
It's irrelevant - 19/11/2012 03:46:42 AM 1040 Views
Agreed. Daigian is the marker of the absolute bottom of Aes Sedai strength. - 19/11/2012 06:55:41 AM 1004 Views
Daigian - 19/11/2012 08:12:19 AM 1015 Views
It is a direct marker due to RJ's quote - 19/11/2012 08:50:26 AM 1039 Views
You missed my point - 19/11/2012 09:08:42 AM 967 Views
Re: You missed my point - 19/11/2012 02:18:33 PM 1054 Views
Asmodean would never have made the comment about 13 weakest AS - 20/11/2012 04:41:11 AM 978 Views
Re: Asmodean would never have made the comment about 13 weakest AS - 20/11/2012 09:07:49 AM 974 Views
Which would make an average AS around a 30 - 20/11/2012 04:58:56 PM 852 Views
Re: Sure you can - 19/11/2012 09:22:09 AM 1093 Views
Care to explain this... - 19/11/2012 05:06:28 PM 930 Views
Indeed - 20/11/2012 07:16:37 AM 1126 Views
Explained far better than I ever could. Bravo. - 20/11/2012 07:30:29 AM 980 Views
Well duh. - 20/11/2012 02:57:24 PM 1089 Views
Incorrect. - 20/11/2012 04:28:07 PM 1077 Views
No - 20/11/2012 04:44:16 PM 1057 Views
Re: No - 20/11/2012 04:48:36 PM 1040 Views
That depends... - 20/11/2012 05:18:46 PM 911 Views
Re: That depends... - 20/11/2012 05:31:03 PM 1326 Views
You're integrating without lower limits... - 20/11/2012 02:55:06 PM 1035 Views
Re: You're integrating without lower limits... - 20/11/2012 04:37:57 PM 1076 Views
It matters. - 20/11/2012 05:22:40 PM 1033 Views
We are not talking about a normal distribution in any case - 20/11/2012 04:44:24 AM 877 Views
Re: We are not talking about a normal distribution in any case - 20/11/2012 07:02:47 AM 1078 Views
You must tell me of this special math... - 20/11/2012 03:10:09 PM 954 Views
Re: You must tell me of this special math... - 20/11/2012 04:29:40 PM 1010 Views
Morghase is a placeholder... - 20/11/2012 04:45:42 PM 1091 Views
Re: Morghase is a placeholder... - 20/11/2012 04:49:54 PM 1246 Views
Why? - 20/11/2012 05:23:29 PM 1045 Views
Re: Why? - 20/11/2012 05:36:45 PM 1222 Views
Well... - 18/11/2012 08:43:59 PM 1083 Views
Re: Well... - 19/11/2012 03:40:44 PM 1064 Views
Wow. - 19/11/2012 03:53:47 PM 1089 Views
Re: Wow. - 19/11/2012 04:26:09 PM 1108 Views
Some points - 19/11/2012 06:03:00 PM 1147 Views
Well then you're both wrong I'm afraid - 19/11/2012 06:09:36 PM 989 Views
Re: Well then you're both wrong I'm afraid - 19/11/2012 07:42:58 PM 870 Views
this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power - 20/11/2012 04:51:20 AM 1082 Views
Agreed - 20/11/2012 08:13:37 AM 1115 Views
probably - 20/11/2012 06:18:45 PM 987 Views
Re: this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power - 20/11/2012 02:45:18 PM 998 Views
I think RJ went out of his way to keep strength a bit of a mystery - 20/11/2012 08:42:44 PM 1008 Views
Indeed... - 21/11/2012 05:44:18 PM 981 Views
I agree - 22/11/2012 01:43:02 AM 1230 Views
Math gurus...Is it possible to find the missing variable... - 21/11/2012 05:12:24 PM 1021 Views
the problem is that the Mean is not going to tell us much really - 22/11/2012 02:55:03 AM 1068 Views
Re: the problem is that the Mean is not going to tell us much really - 22/11/2012 03:15:33 AM 1386 Views
I do not think you can calculate the Mean without knowing the Units of Power - 22/11/2012 03:53:59 AM 1157 Views
Re: Math gurus...Is it possible to find the missing variable... - 23/11/2012 02:59:12 PM 1296 Views
Disregard this post *NM* - 23/11/2012 03:02:24 PM 875 Views

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