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Re: I don't agree with some of this Sidious Send a noteboard - 29/09/2009 06:07:56 PM
I don't think there's any evidence of this.


It's hard to say. In the scenes where comments are made about the unexpected strength shown by the leader of a mixed-gender circle (Demandred re Flinn at the Cleansing, for example), it's unclear if the leader is channeling both halves of the power or not. You assume they are, but it's certainly not spelled out.

Demandred said that Flinn's net of saidin struck his warding much stronger than it should have, and from that he concluded that Flinn was linked with the women. But, he didn't conclude anything about the net including saidar (he never mentioned saidar at all) - you assumed that.

I don't know of any evidence that proves what I suggested is wrong. If you do, please point it out.

The benefit of a circle derives from its ability to focus multiple energies on a single point, and therefore the precision of a circle is what gives it power. If a person links it doesn't make their own ability any stronger - and that applies to all circles.


I agree that's true of female-only circles, but show me evidence that it's true of mixed circles. It seems quite possible, to me, that mixed circles are different, in that respect.

In a mixed link, to gain the exponential benefit, the leader of the circle, in this case, the male channeler, must draw on saidin and saidar to make his fireball much more powerful. You're suggesting that merely being linked to a woman is enough to make his saidin more powerful which I completely disagree with.


Yes, that's what I'm suggesting (although, as I said in the last paragraph of my first post, I don't think he's actually channeling more saidin than he could have alone, only that what he creates from it is more potent, due to the link). You're suggesting otherwise. But so far you haven't shown me any evidence that what I suggest is wrong.

If he weaves a fireball of 1 saidin, it will remain 1 saidin even in a mixed link. However, if he draws 0.5 saidin and 0.5 saidar - the fireball will have a strength of 2. The combination of the two powers and their repelling-attractive effect is what provides the strength, not the link its self.


I considered that possibility, too. And, you very well could be right. To be honest, I'm only just slightly in favor of what I said, vs. what you're saying. But, the reason I'm leaning towards my idea is that, in all the discussion on the benefits of mixed circles, none of the verbage I could find, either in the books or in the Guide, says that the leader has to be drawing on, and combining into one weave, both halves of the OP in order to derive any benefit from the circle. Leading me to believe that the leader DOES derive some benefit from the circle regardless which power(s) he/she utilizes in any particular weave.

Now, it's quite possible that, to derive the MOST benefit from the circle, the leader has to combine both halves of the OP into a single weave. But, that doesn't mean there is NO benefit, otherwise. It just seems to me, based on the discussion in the books/guide, that RJ had more in mind re the benefits of mixed circles than the one case where both halves of the OP are combined into a single weave.

I kind of agree with you that, based on what we know of circles in general, it doesn't seem like what I suggest re mixed circles should be the case. But as I said, it's the impression I get when reading about the advantages of mixed circles. *shrugs*


Well I can disprove little of what you say, considering we see so few mixed circles. Still, it does go against most of what we do know about the Power.

The benefit of a circle is gained by concentrating the energies through a single person. As the BWB says, a single focussed blow can destroy an object that could resist any number of hammer strikes. There is no reason to think that a mixed link could be different. A circle of women is infinitely more powerful, and a mixed link even more so. We've known from the beginning that saidin and saidar are exponentially powerful when used together, but they must be used together. I see no evidence that the actual link is what provides the advantage - it is the combination of the two different powers.

This is further substantiated by the fact that balanced circles are more powerful, according to the BWB. A circle of six men and seven women is more powerful than twelve women and a man. This is indirect proof that it is the actual Power that provides the difference - balanced circles contribute equal amounts of saidin and saidar. If the link its self was the defining factor, unbalanced circles would be equally powerful.

Even so, I don't think I'm stretching with Demandred. Nothing in the series implies that saidin can be more powerful, or weaker. If a weave comes towards you made of saidin, it is saidin and can be estimated in strength. Cyndane judges Alivia's strength based on the strength of the flow she sends her way - saidar is saidar and cannot be increased in strength. Likewise Rand estimates Rahvin's strength based on the weaves he sends his way. The only way in which Demandred could be surprised like that is if something hidden struck him. I imagine that the fire weave had a measurable amount of saidin which he prepared to deflect, and an invisible component of saidar, which created a weave of great strength - which equalled Demandred's own power.

It is possible that you can't draw only from your own strength when linked with others. Eben says that Daigian is drawing less than a whisper of saidin from him at the Cleansing because she won't touch tainted saidin unless she must. So 'maintenance power' is required, which I imagine will have an effect on anything Daigian weaves. I still maintain that the secret to circle strength is balance, and the more equal you make the two powers the stronger the resultant weave.
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