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Not to belabor the point darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 12/11/2012 10:56:39 PM
About Nesta/Harine we'll leave it at that. I understand now better why you interpret it the way you do, but I don't agree with your interpretation.


Thanks, but I'm not sure I understand your interpretation.

There's a reason why they never did that. That's claiming territory, with all the diplomatic risks it entails, and they would have had to fortify and defend those enclaves, and the roads leading to it, many of which they'd have to build and keep in shape. A trade enclave in the middle of nowhere would have been a magnet for bandits. All very costly. By buying land in the middle of nations, close to big cities with established trade networks, the SF benefit from all this for free, merely having to protect their own goods and the welfare of people coming to trade there.


Of course there is a reason they didn't do it, that was part of my point of why the SF would want to be near the cities ... it's totally impractical for a seafaring nation to try and fortify/defend etc ... a trade enclave independent of a other nations. Which only strengthens my point about Nesta sending them with specific instructions and why Zaida's Bargain was so well received. The point is that if they simply wanted to carve off land for Traveling and trade they didn't need Bargains to get it. They need the Alliances as much as anything else. Which leads to my next point. Zaida has just created an alliance with Andor, which is far more important that a single trade enclave.

There's no indication Elayne knew anything about the other enclaves. She would very likely have mentionned this if she knew, and measure all the implications better.


That is irrelevant ... the point is the same whether she knew about other enclaves or not. At some point goods have to leave the enclave and enter Andor for trade to happen. She makes money when that happens. Using Traveling between the enclaves merely makes the transportation faster, and saves the SF the expenses related to shipping.

Elayne believed Andor would benefit because a lot more SF goods would enter the Westlands directly through Andor to be traded in the North and in Murandy, attracting foreign traders to Andor who would pay taxes to the Crown to get those goods out of the enclave. Merchants from Arafel or Shienar or Tar Valon would no longer need to go to Tear or Bandar Eban for SF goods, they'd go down the Erinin to Aringill and save a lot of money, and Andor would have its share.

But she got manipulated into accepting that goods not entering Andor, just the enclave, wouldn't be taxed.


She certainly overestimates the situation in her favor, but she's still putting Andor in a stronger trade position by having the SF enclave. She is correct that Andor will have faster access to more types of goods, and given the power of the Andoran economy (pre-TG) it's likely that she will see an increase in the types of goods Andor can produce. Introducing new raw materials to Andor could create whole new industries. She makes money from all of these eventualities without having arrange for it herself. The presence of the SF will expand Andor's economy in many ways.

Merchants will come trade goods in the enclave and the SF will open a gateway to the destination of their choice and merchants will pay the taxes to their own country only, and Andor will get nothing at all. The goods will never enter Andor, no more than the goods the SF buy in Shienar or Arafel will ever enter Andor, they'll pick them at the source, Travel to the enclave and put them on their ships.


That works both ways. And quite frankly Andor is much more likely to come out on top with this as the market in Andor is larger and wealthier than pretty much anywhere else. This is no different than if they didn't have Traveling. Ships go right past Andor with goods aimed for Tear or Ebou Dar as it is ... and with Caemlyn not being a River Port she's actually just blown open the doors for the city to be a trade center.

All Elayne got out of the deal is cheaper SF goods for the Andoran internal market, losing in the bargain most of the foreign trade that used to transit through Andor, to the benefice of the Crown, Andoran traders, and all the businesses making most of their trade on the travels of foreign merchants (inns etc.). Or it did that, her deal with the Kin completely changed the game again, she just has to offer better deals than the SF (not very hard!) for trading in Andor and to begin sending her traders to the source of various goods. Andorans won't buy silk from SF anymore, Elayne will send her traders to Shara by gateway, just as in the days Cairhienin merchants could do this (and lost 20 years ago, destroying a lot of their wealth) and Andor will compete directly with the SF as a source of silk. Of silk and tons of things only the SF could offer. She screwed Zaida back, her enclave will be nowhere as lucrative as she believed, all the less since Elayne has very close alliances with the booming TR, Ghealdan, and she is Queen of Cairhien.


I think you are underestimating the power of the Andoran economy here. Certainly the SF will make massive profits by being able to move goods from Andor to other cities rapidly. But Elayne will eventually also see profit from their actions as nearly every world market will want to move goods TO Andor. I don't think Elayne was trying to screw the SF when she brought on the Kin. Without land to Travel TO in the other nations the Kin aren't going to be able to put a through massive caravans like the SF will be able to. And the merchants will have to pay taxes on both ends if they use the Kin, vs. the SF who will assume the costs of transportation and taxes. Why would a merchant want to go through the expense and travel to ship something themselves when they can stroll down the street to the SF enclave, sell their goods and collect the money right that day? If they use the Kin they will have to enter a foreign city, find a buyer, pay the taxes and all other associated transportation fees. The real value of the Kin to Elayne is the de facto hospital service they represent.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Re: I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage - 12/11/2012 02:57:08 PM 955 Views
Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing - 12/11/2012 04:11:50 PM 991 Views
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Re: Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain - 12/11/2012 09:30:57 PM 909 Views
Not to belabor the point - 12/11/2012 10:56:39 PM 858 Views
Re: Not to belabor the point - 13/11/2012 12:46:21 AM 819 Views
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