Re: Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing
DomA Send a noteboard - 12/11/2012 06:01:33 PM
I understand your point, I just disagree with your interpretation that this was a plan of Nesta and not something Harine herself came up with to balance a bit a far more onerous Bargain with Rand than she expected and for which she would have been blamed (as it turned out, her gains were not important enough to avoid that, especially when Zaida got out of Elayne a far more beneficial bargain. Harine had made the bargain with the Coramoor, and yet it's Zaida and her deal with Elayne who made the biggest gains for the SF) which Zaida copied, and bettered to gain an advantage on Harine in the election.
Not sure why you keep bringing up Zaida isn't the one who got Traveling, I know it's a weave Renaille's Windfinders gained from the fact they had the right to observe anything Elayne and co. were weaving, it's still Zaida who managed to exploit the gain (you can't deny this, it's her who offered paid OP services from Windfinders to Elayne...). I don't see the relevance of that, my point is that Zaida has figured out what the SF stood to gain with that weave, both for SF trade and to trade OP services to nations, and took all this into account when she negotiated with Elayne. It's what her bargain with Elayne is about. It's better than what Harine gained, much better. Harine didn't negotiate knowing the patches of land she gained would serve for anything but local trade (basically, what Harine got is land where SF trade rules, not local laws and fees, would apply to all traders/merchants coming in those lands to sell goods to the SF or by it from them, and better profits for the SF from by-passing Tairen taxes by selling directly in Cairhien. What Zaida got is the possibility to extend this to all lands) because Zaida managed to extirpate from Elayne a tax exemption for all goods entering those lands that wouldn't enter Andor. That tax exemption is very important, and look at your own quote, it's not mentionned in Harine's bargain quoted literally by Merana.
But we'll have to agree to disagree on the interpretation. It seems obvious to me Zaida has these plans, it jumped at me the second Zaida added a tax exemption. It's more than a patch of land Zaida returned with (and she had just one, while Harine gained one in all lands conquered by Rand past and future, and yet it's Zaida's gains that won the day with the others), it's with the concept for a whole new system, one far more lucrative for the SF (whose leaders, so far, have all proven to be selfish and greedy bastards, not that it's much different from the nobles, but the SF are far more ruthless and amoral when it comes to pushing their interests. Zaida hasn't summoned Rand yet, I expect she will soon at a moment it's likely Rand would refuse, making Harine's bargain null and void. It's possible she's a DF, but I rather see her as too greedy and too megalomaniac for her own good. I think she'll overextend herself, overplays her hand and stand to lose the SF a lot more than she has gained, opening the way for Harine. I don't see how, developments will have to occur, but I guess Harine's question in the bank Rand is forced to answer might be the key.).
It could be simple. Rand at Merrilor plans to ask something onerous of all the rulers. That includes Zaida, who's bound by the Bargain to give to Rand what he wants (and if Rand were to ask for all the Windfinders for TG, leaving their whole fleet unprotected in Bandar Eban, the SF might freak). Her only way out of it would be to make him break his side of the Bargain, and the only way would be to force him to come to her at a moment he can't possibly accept to. But of course (and it's something like this I mean by Zaida overplaying her hand) Rand could tell Harine "Well, if Zaida wishes to play that game, she'll play it alone. I won't force you to fight the Shadow, you'll have to live with the fact everyone knows what choice the SF made on the eve of the LB.". Then Harine would ask her question, stuff to make her ponder. It would be up to Harine to return, challenge Zaida and have the clans depose her, be elected and return to Rand with the Windfinders (developments which typically with the SF tend to all happen off-screen except for the beginning and outcome).
Not sure why you keep bringing up Zaida isn't the one who got Traveling, I know it's a weave Renaille's Windfinders gained from the fact they had the right to observe anything Elayne and co. were weaving, it's still Zaida who managed to exploit the gain (you can't deny this, it's her who offered paid OP services from Windfinders to Elayne...). I don't see the relevance of that, my point is that Zaida has figured out what the SF stood to gain with that weave, both for SF trade and to trade OP services to nations, and took all this into account when she negotiated with Elayne. It's what her bargain with Elayne is about. It's better than what Harine gained, much better. Harine didn't negotiate knowing the patches of land she gained would serve for anything but local trade (basically, what Harine got is land where SF trade rules, not local laws and fees, would apply to all traders/merchants coming in those lands to sell goods to the SF or by it from them, and better profits for the SF from by-passing Tairen taxes by selling directly in Cairhien. What Zaida got is the possibility to extend this to all lands) because Zaida managed to extirpate from Elayne a tax exemption for all goods entering those lands that wouldn't enter Andor. That tax exemption is very important, and look at your own quote, it's not mentionned in Harine's bargain quoted literally by Merana.
But we'll have to agree to disagree on the interpretation. It seems obvious to me Zaida has these plans, it jumped at me the second Zaida added a tax exemption. It's more than a patch of land Zaida returned with (and she had just one, while Harine gained one in all lands conquered by Rand past and future, and yet it's Zaida's gains that won the day with the others), it's with the concept for a whole new system, one far more lucrative for the SF (whose leaders, so far, have all proven to be selfish and greedy bastards, not that it's much different from the nobles, but the SF are far more ruthless and amoral when it comes to pushing their interests. Zaida hasn't summoned Rand yet, I expect she will soon at a moment it's likely Rand would refuse, making Harine's bargain null and void. It's possible she's a DF, but I rather see her as too greedy and too megalomaniac for her own good. I think she'll overextend herself, overplays her hand and stand to lose the SF a lot more than she has gained, opening the way for Harine. I don't see how, developments will have to occur, but I guess Harine's question in the bank Rand is forced to answer might be the key.).
It could be simple. Rand at Merrilor plans to ask something onerous of all the rulers. That includes Zaida, who's bound by the Bargain to give to Rand what he wants (and if Rand were to ask for all the Windfinders for TG, leaving their whole fleet unprotected in Bandar Eban, the SF might freak). Her only way out of it would be to make him break his side of the Bargain, and the only way would be to force him to come to her at a moment he can't possibly accept to. But of course (and it's something like this I mean by Zaida overplaying her hand) Rand could tell Harine "Well, if Zaida wishes to play that game, she'll play it alone. I won't force you to fight the Shadow, you'll have to live with the fact everyone knows what choice the SF made on the eve of the LB.". Then Harine would ask her question, stuff to make her ponder. It would be up to Harine to return, challenge Zaida and have the clans depose her, be elected and return to Rand with the Windfinders (developments which typically with the SF tend to all happen off-screen except for the beginning and outcome).
[Mik's Warp] - Demandred is.....*click to find out*
05/11/2012 01:06:42 PM
- 2735 Views
There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)...
05/11/2012 02:10:07 PM
- 1292 Views
Re: There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)...
06/11/2012 12:40:54 PM
- 1183 Views
I say Roederan is a better choice simply because of where he is located
06/11/2012 11:01:28 PM
- 1091 Views
Re: I say Roederan is a better choice simply because of where he is located
07/11/2012 09:42:00 AM
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Plausible, albeit antilclimactic *NM*
05/11/2012 06:32:38 PM
- 607 Views
Unless Mat is Demandred, at this point it will be anticlimactic. *NM*
06/11/2012 04:02:38 AM
- 565 Views
You've tried too hard...
05/11/2012 07:53:41 PM
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Will be so disappointed if the Shadow's greatest (non-crazy) leader is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky
05/11/2012 08:57:59 PM
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I doubt Mat will kill him personally but
05/11/2012 09:24:48 PM
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I don't know
06/11/2012 02:01:41 AM
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My prediction of how it plays out...
06/11/2012 07:12:15 AM
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I don't think that's likely
06/11/2012 06:04:55 PM
- 956 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely
06/11/2012 11:21:21 PM
- 894 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely
07/11/2012 08:14:28 PM
- 1018 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely
07/11/2012 09:05:07 PM
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Re: I don't think that's likely
08/11/2012 05:52:16 PM
- 938 Views
It sounds like we're at the same stage of vision of the AOL
08/11/2012 07:48:17 PM
- 892 Views
Statistics refute some of that...
09/11/2012 07:35:59 AM
- 903 Views
We're not talking about the same things...
09/11/2012 11:31:12 PM
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The real question is how much of that was caused by the Bore and the Collapse
09/11/2012 11:50:20 PM
- 931 Views
It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent.
09/11/2012 11:43:26 PM
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Re: It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent.
10/11/2012 07:34:34 AM
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You're putting the Evil on a pedestal.
06/11/2012 03:12:38 AM
- 817 Views
... is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky
06/11/2012 08:45:02 PM
- 1046 Views
Mat is essentially the man (men) who wrote the books Demandred studied
06/11/2012 10:42:40 PM
- 875 Views
I didn't try hard at all; Demandred found me...
06/11/2012 03:31:41 PM
- 1054 Views
My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk
06/11/2012 10:54:50 PM
- 1024 Views
Re: My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk
07/11/2012 12:07:02 AM
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Well, it instantly gives the Shadow access to attacking every coastal city...
07/11/2012 10:32:23 AM
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If he married Nynaeve and Moiraine he'd have his wives at Rand's side in the Pit too....
07/11/2012 03:28:38 PM
- 915 Views
I find that approach unnecessarily convoluted. Just hit them with 1 billion Trollocs and crush them.
08/11/2012 07:00:36 AM
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May I ask some practical questions?
08/11/2012 05:28:41 PM
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Re: May I ask some practical questions?
08/11/2012 10:35:38 PM
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Re: May I ask some practical questions?
10/11/2012 12:09:15 AM
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Re: May I ask some practical questions?
10/11/2012 03:11:59 AM
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LOL ... Seems more than a little far fetched *NM*
10/11/2012 06:17:34 AM
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Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about
09/11/2012 02:57:16 PM
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Re: Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about
09/11/2012 09:03:14 PM
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I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind.
09/11/2012 11:57:34 PM
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Re: I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind.
10/11/2012 10:08:04 PM
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I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage
11/11/2012 07:45:19 AM
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Re: I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage
12/11/2012 02:57:08 PM
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Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing
12/11/2012 04:11:50 PM
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Re: Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing
12/11/2012 06:01:33 PM
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Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain
12/11/2012 06:51:24 PM
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Re: Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain
12/11/2012 09:30:57 PM
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Not to belabor the point
12/11/2012 10:56:39 PM
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Re: Not to belabor the point
13/11/2012 12:46:21 AM
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I think you are way off base on the economics
13/11/2012 01:24:35 AM
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