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Re: I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage DomA Send a noteboard - 12/11/2012 02:57:08 PM
I simply don't agree that either Harine's or Zaida negotiated for the land with Traveling in mind. It seems to be a part of the larger SF agenda put in motion by Nesta when she sent ambassadors to Rand. Zaida made do with what she could and came up with a great Bargain.

How Zaida used her Bargain is a different thing than why she secured the land. The land can and will be used for many things, gaining Traveling wasnt even Zaida's doing, Nesta set that in motion with her BotW Bargain. Zaida just managed to use it.


Not sure what makes you believe so much it's a plan of Nesta or even a global national plan (the SF are a federation, the clans are extremely competitive with each other). The Sea Folk have not tried to secure land in any other nation, except Cairhien and Andor (except perhaps I forget and Harine dealt Rand for land in Tear/Illian too, but not as I recall. The SF gained not much if she did, what they want to by-pass is the very onerous harbor-fees and high taxes of the coastal nations). Nesta herself was in Ebou Dar and didn't even attempt to meet with Tylin.

Zaida wasn't there to negotiate anything with Andor, Nesta had sent two competing ambassadors, one to each city where Rand was believed to be.

It seems to me this was an idea of Harine who raised the stakes in her negotiations with Rand's Aes Sedai as Rand's demands were onerous and she knew she absolutely had to make a Bargain, so she had to make any gain she could to offset that.

I'm fairly convinced asking for land in Andor is simply Zaida's idea to counter what she learned Harine achieved in Cairhien, and what Harine did in Cairhien wasn't implementing a plan of Nesta but trying to make any extra gain she could think of to offset Rand's negotiators extremely onerous demands.

The difference is that Harine merely gained a direct access to Cairhien's market, and this bargain is worth far less than Zaida's because it was made with Rand, who may die soon, instead of with the Sun throne, while Zaida made her move far later, made a perpetual bargain binding the rulers of Andor, and at a time she understood Travelling would change everything (don't forget, Zesta outranked everyone and took control, and she let Renaille go on providing Elayne with gateways until she was in a good position to make a formal bargain over this with Elayne) and she positionned the Sea Folk to benefit massively from those new realities, and she started to trade Sea Folk One Power services to nations/individuals as a commodity, for a very lucrative price for the Sea Folk.

Note that Zaida didn't attempt to make that bargain with Elayne at first, she was rather pressuring Elayne over the Bargain she made with Nesta. It's only when she learned Nesta died and the conclave was about to start that Zaida made her personal moves.

She was very anxious to make that bargain, Elayne noticed that, because beating Harine to the finish line at the conclave depended on that (it's why Elayne ended up managing to get the private services of nine Windfinders for what might turn possibly to years (some Successions did).

That the Sea Folk now plan to use Travelling to move goods on land between nations, and on ships at sea is little more theorical than Zaida having decided to now offer Windfinders as a very expensive commodity. That last isn't theory at all, Zaida has already done it. There was nothing secret about that deal, like any good businesswoman with an eye for marketing Zaida fully expected the stories of Windfinders having Travelling and that those services were for hire by nations/individuals to spread (starting in Illian and Tear, soon all rulers would learn that) and the demand for Windfinders OP services to emerge. It was a brilliant move if Elayne succeeded, the story spreading would be that the legitimate heir of Andor managed to offset a siege and secure her throne by paying for SF services. Very attractive. Her other strategic success was to put the price asked for such services very high.

Of course there's even more to it, as it's important for its political status how much a clan makes each year... Zaida first and above all positionned her clan. Her clan now owns a land patch from which to offer goods free of the burden of "international" taxes everywhere. The other clans wishing to use that land would pay. Elayne is fairly unlikely to reconduct the Bargain with Rand for the land patch in Cairhien, not without asking Harine for more concessions (which could happen soon, Elayne could really use Winfinders help right now, especially if she's denied WO, Asha'man and Aes Sedai help).

Zaida arrived at the conclave showing the clans just how much there was to be gained from those two new trading avenues. Not only this far outshined Harine, but Zaida managed to depict what Harine has given away as extremely onerous, and binding/beneficial only as long as Rand lived or controlled the nations. Zaida, instead, made massive gains that would hold after the LB - if Elayne won her throne, of course (which ended up being the leverage Birgitte used to get the Windfinders to fight... not something that was supposed to happen... she broke the terms of the Bargain, Zaida is extremely likely to call Elayne to account for this).





This message last edited by DomA on 12/11/2012 at 03:00:26 PM
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[Mik's Warp] - Demandred is.....*click to find out* - 05/11/2012 01:06:42 PM 2734 Views
There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)... - 05/11/2012 02:10:07 PM 1291 Views
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Re: Nah.. forget that - 05/11/2012 10:07:46 PM 992 Views
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I'm not saying it's not a well-reasoned theory; it is. - 06/11/2012 06:02:36 PM 1185 Views
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I applaud your effort, but to be honest I just can't see it - 07/11/2012 04:48:17 PM 964 Views
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There has been a lot of waste in WOT..... - 06/11/2012 06:26:56 PM 909 Views
LIKE! *NM* - 09/12/2012 02:37:49 PM 1029 Views
Whoops *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:27:06 PM 552 Views
Plausible, albeit antilclimactic *NM* - 05/11/2012 06:32:38 PM 606 Views
Unless Mat is Demandred, at this point it will be anticlimactic. *NM* - 06/11/2012 04:02:38 AM 565 Views
That would be EPIC *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:53:30 PM 571 Views
That would be EPIC *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:53:31 PM 565 Views
You've tried too hard... - 05/11/2012 07:53:41 PM 2802 Views
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I don't know - 06/11/2012 02:01:41 AM 895 Views
My prediction of how it plays out... - 06/11/2012 07:12:15 AM 994 Views
I don't think that's likely - 06/11/2012 06:04:55 PM 955 Views
LOL ... it will be a saying in the next Age - 06/11/2012 10:36:04 PM 893 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 06/11/2012 11:21:21 PM 893 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 07/11/2012 08:14:28 PM 1017 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 07/11/2012 09:05:07 PM 1116 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 08/11/2012 05:52:16 PM 937 Views
It sounds like we're at the same stage of vision of the AOL - 08/11/2012 07:48:17 PM 891 Views
Statistics refute some of that... - 09/11/2012 07:35:59 AM 902 Views
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It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent. - 09/11/2012 11:43:26 PM 1081 Views
Re: It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent. - 10/11/2012 07:34:34 AM 1000 Views
You seriously believe that? - 10/11/2012 04:17:09 PM 926 Views
Mat has grown quiet a bit since those days - 06/11/2012 01:55:48 AM 1049 Views
You're putting the Evil on a pedestal. - 06/11/2012 03:12:38 AM 816 Views
No, just desperately trying to raise the stakes a bit... - 06/11/2012 07:00:59 AM 961 Views
That's essentially what I was saying - 06/11/2012 03:35:45 PM 1080 Views
hmmm - 06/11/2012 10:27:00 AM 1216 Views
... is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 06/11/2012 08:45:02 PM 1045 Views
Mat is essentially the man (men) who wrote the books Demandred studied - 06/11/2012 10:42:40 PM 874 Views
Exactly... - 06/11/2012 11:45:36 PM 1040 Views
... is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 06/11/2012 08:45:29 PM 1085 Views
I didn't try hard at all; Demandred found me... - 06/11/2012 03:31:41 PM 1053 Views
My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk - 06/11/2012 10:54:50 PM 1023 Views
Re: My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk - 07/11/2012 12:07:02 AM 1073 Views
Well, it instantly gives the Shadow access to attacking every coastal city... - 07/11/2012 10:32:23 AM 945 Views
Exactly! - 07/11/2012 10:54:14 AM 1495 Views
If he married Nynaeve and Moiraine he'd have his wives at Rand's side in the Pit too.... - 07/11/2012 03:28:38 PM 914 Views
I find that approach unnecessarily convoluted. Just hit them with 1 billion Trollocs and crush them. - 08/11/2012 07:00:36 AM 903 Views
Not likely he has that many... - 08/11/2012 03:00:32 PM 839 Views
May I ask some practical questions? - 08/11/2012 05:28:41 PM 841 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 08/11/2012 10:35:38 PM 973 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 12:09:15 AM 909 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 03:11:59 AM 914 Views
LOL ... Seems more than a little far fetched *NM* - 10/11/2012 06:17:34 AM 511 Views
Well you asked for an explanation - 13/11/2012 10:23:41 PM 829 Views
fair enough *NM* - 14/11/2012 01:31:52 AM 483 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 07:15:58 PM 956 Views
Exactly! - 11/11/2012 07:38:46 AM 957 Views
Good practical questions... - 09/11/2012 07:24:14 AM 949 Views
He doesn't need the SF for that - 09/11/2012 03:00:34 PM 724 Views
Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about - 09/11/2012 02:57:16 PM 786 Views
Re: Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about - 09/11/2012 09:03:14 PM 907 Views
I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind. - 09/11/2012 11:57:34 PM 881 Views
Re: I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind. - 10/11/2012 10:08:04 PM 2419 Views
I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage - 11/11/2012 07:45:19 AM 942 Views
Re: I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage - 12/11/2012 02:57:08 PM 955 Views
Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing - 12/11/2012 04:11:50 PM 990 Views
Re: Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing - 12/11/2012 06:01:33 PM 1074 Views
Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain - 12/11/2012 06:51:24 PM 1105 Views
Re: Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain - 12/11/2012 09:30:57 PM 908 Views
Not to belabor the point - 12/11/2012 10:56:39 PM 857 Views
Re: Not to belabor the point - 13/11/2012 12:46:21 AM 818 Views
I think you are way off base on the economics - 13/11/2012 01:24:35 AM 784 Views
Re: I think you are way off base on the economics - 13/11/2012 03:48:40 PM 901 Views
no reason to *NM* - 14/11/2012 01:35:55 AM 500 Views
I don't see the problem... - 07/11/2012 10:52:49 AM 1631 Views
This is preposterous - 07/11/2012 04:15:11 PM 1329 Views
Who? - 06/11/2012 07:29:46 PM 859 Views
Paah, he's clearly on the Isle of Madmen to the south. - 10/11/2012 03:28:26 AM 1284 Views

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