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Re: Please explain holding Justice to distract Shai'tan DomA Send a noteboard - 08/11/2012 10:16:05 PM
I realize that I've been dismissive of the literary value of Wheel of Time for some time. I always viewed it as entertainment. And on that count, there was a series of massively disappointing books - Path of Daggers, Winter's Heart, Crossroads of Twilight - the last certainly being the worst, and in many ways the breaking point for me - but I really did have a fun time reading the first six books, and Book 7 was okay, I guess. I also liked Knife of Dreams and The Gathering Storm moderately well, and when New Spring came out I was actually sad, because I had never read it as a short story and when the book came out, I got "classic Jordan" after several books of "writer's block Jordan" and remembered exactly why I liked the series in the first place (and, coincidentally, I was finally able to conclude that the reason I stopped liking the series had less to do with me changing than the series going downhill).

Why am I mentioning this?

Well, because I keep coming back to my fundamental, cloudy, muddled theory about the end of the series. It has a whole Hell of a lot to do with the prophecies, "twice dawns the day" and all that.

Essentially, it says his blood will be spilled on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, which most people now assume will be the Aiel, since they call themselves the "Blood of the Dragon". Okay, but he still has to die and then live again. Three women in a boat, the old Arthurian legends - this is all still central to what will happen.

I realize that it's been massively unpopular, but I still wonder if Rand's life will be transferred to another body because his is just too damaged. It's possible that Ishamael would then inhabit Rand's body due to the link. Or maybe Ishamael takes control of Rand's body and his life force is transferred to another body. I realize it all sounds silly, but there are a whole LOT of people who seem to have multiple consciousnesses (Rand himself already has LTT, Mat has his memories, and of course we still don't know exactly what's up with the Luc/Isam couple).

Why, you might ask?

Well, Rand's old name is Lucifer, essentially - Lord of the Morning, and he's the Dragon. This is all highly NEGATIVE imagery in our world, and Jordan, while not specifically stating he was writing about our world, implies it in the very beginning of the series (Mosk and Merk, Materese, etc.).

And then there's Logain, who is a Christ figure with a halo of glory around him every time Min views him. Logain, which sounds like the Greek λογος (logos), as in "In the beginning was the λογος, and the λογος was with God, and the λογος was God." It doesn't just mean "word", but also "proportion, ratio, harmony".

I have always been convinced that somehow, Logain slays the Dragon and saves the world, but for that to happen, for the roles to invert, somehow Rand has to not be "the Dragon", or at least seem so for purposes of later legend.

So there. I have said it multiple times but I'm going on record about it, vague as it all is.


Resurrection, transmigration, possession the desire for physical immortality, in Jordan's world it's all seriously associated with evil. It's the antithesis of the Way of Leaf which is extreme passivity, also colored negatively in the series, as if it were "extreme Good", a desire to emulate the Creator, and clearly not the purpose of Creation.

Rand has more or less to walk the middle line between the two extremes. It's the balance his epiphany brought him. He's embraced the whole creed now. He wants Creation to go on, and has embraced life and death alike.

The "body swapping" theory has been around a long time. I think it has some merits but not as something that might save Rand, but as something the Shadow intends to do. I think the DO intends to translate Rand's soul in Moridin's body. He won't have time to transmigrate Rand, he'll simply translate his soul in the body Moridin controls. We know something of what would happen... Mordeth has possessed Fain like this, and in Jordan's words "Fain has managed to sidestep the Pattern after a fashion". I believe this is how the DO intends to use the Dragon's soul to his own purpose.

It's not very likely Logain "saves" Rand.

His blood on the rocks with come from his "dolorous stroke" in his side.


IMO there will be two phases to the Strike. In the first one Nynaeve will use Callandor (in a link with Rand and Moiraine) to remove the residues of the sealing that would prevent the Bore from closing.

In this phase, Rand's soul will be translated by SH into Moridin's body using the bond between Rand and Moridin. Alivia will be hidden by the ter'angreal that shields from Shai'tan's attention and she will kill Moridin, freeing Rand.

The second phase will involve Rand in the afterworld with the Heroes of the Horn, holding Justice against Shai'tan to distract his attention. Meanwhile, Nynaeve will remove Shai'tan's "tentacles" holding the Bore (like the taint holds a brain). In tel'aran'rhiod the Dreamwalkers will help the Wheel speed up the process of reverting the Pattern to its normal state: a "weakness" which is how decay and death can exist in Creation, not a Bore letting Shai'tan actively touch the world. I'm convinced for many reasons Lanfear and Beidomon created the Bore in TAR, because I think what became "the Bore" used to be the threshold between the living world and the Afterworld. It's through that weakness the Wheel can use a trickle of Shai'tan's power to produce the decay to death process.

It doesn't matter much that Rand has to be seen as "evil" for future legends. We have a poetry from the 4th that basically worshipped him.... The next age isn't close from "our age", which happened before the AOL or close to that. Brandon has already confirmed the next Age isn't the one in which channelling disappears.

Don't forget RJ has tainted the third age's "arthuriana" massively with Asian elements. In China/Japan, dragons aren't evil, they're powerful benevolent creatures, not to be triffled with, but not evil. The saviour in Jainism (the main source for the Way of the Leaf stuff) is also a kind of dragon.

I think future legends of evil dragons are an amalgam of many things, some of which we might have seeds of... Alivia's dragons, the association between volcanoes and dragons both will lead to an association of dragons and fires, and eventually once the LB and the DO are all but forgotten (not in the next age for sure...), an amalgam between snakes, dragons and Satan. I also highly suspect part of this isn't about corrupted legends, but rather the fact TAR connects all human and acts as kind of Jungian collective inconscious with its archetypal heroes and villains you can dream about.






How does Hawkwing's sword mean anything to the DO, and isn't it a normal jeweled sword?


It all rests on a hunch.

In TGS we learned that "LTT" knew things about that sword he wasn't telling Rand. Rand put it out of his mind. It has not returned since.

My hunch is that perhaps Jordan has made it rest on the same para-arthurian (it's from the same era in origin/not belonging to the cycle) legends of "hallows" Rowling also used in the finale of Harry Potter.

Death in WOT is of course the DO, so Hallows that would let you master death....

There's a whole lot in Rowling's treatment of the legend that's purely her own. She's kept the triad of hallows and that's about it.

If RJ had similar hallows, they'd be three. Linked, and predating the AOL when they were just legends. What could they be?

One would be totally different from "invisibility cloak", in fact it's the reverse at it marks you as the Champion of Life. That would be the Dragon's Banner.

The other one is akin to the resurrection stone, and it's the Horn of Valere.

What of the third? The third would be Justice. What does it do? I haven't the slightest idea. It would be like trying to puzzle out what the Horn does if we had no clue about the legends about it.

I think perhaps Justice is the Dragon's soul Sword. It may not have any power in the real world, it could be meant to be used in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Hawkwing had it because LTT was incarnated and he was his surrogate as the Heroes's leader back in Falme.

The full thing goes this way: the Horn calls the Heroes, the Heroes follow the Banner only, they are lead by the one with the Sword.

I believe that sword has been LTT's in the AOL. Hawkwing in the real world got it, so that it could be given to Rand down the line.

We know about the Horn of Valere that it existed in the AOL, it wasn't etched, it sat in a museum as an artifact of an earlier age surrounded by legends. RJ said no one believe those legends any more than scholars today would, so no one had the silly idea to try the Horn.

I suggest the sword and banner also stood in museums, and were also linked to old legends (the connection with those about the Horn lost in time) about the Dragon, a saviour, kind of avatar or child of the Great Serpent, its champion. Those legends belong with a pre-channelling era, and the Great Serpent/tree of life etc. conception of the world. Pre-AOL.

I think as the WOS began, some (the Da'shain Aiel...) believed in the old legends and gave LTT the sword and banner, named him The Dragon, started calling themselves "People of the Dragon"/Children of the Dragon. LTT wasn't a believer, thought the whole thing ridiculous, didn't embrace the name and couldn't care less, but he found himself in the same inner debate as Perrin with his banners. Some believed, and to them in was an important symbol of hope. So LTT eventually let it stand.

So LTT had two "hallows" he didn't believe in and never even tried to use as the old legends said they had to be used. He missed the third. RJ said the Horn got lost in the chaos of the WOS before Foretelling appeared about its importance.

Now Rand has the three Hallows, and he knows the purpose of two for sure. And I think he knows the legends surrounding "Justice", it's what in TGS he wasn't "telling" Rand about the sword. To LTT's memories, that's still silliness. Not to Rand. What we miss now is the trigger that will make Rand ponder on how the Horn might come into play in TG.

I think RJ (well, Brandon) will give us all the clues, all the elements, before the Strike itself. What he won't give us is how it all comes together.

I get the feeling the part we will know the most about in advance will be what Nynaeve (a woman needs to lead that circle, no? You will know this!) does to the residues of the sealing as this will come from Min when she comes across the "belief an order make strength" line in a book and reads what comes after... and ties it to what else Fel believed. We might not know all that much after what Rand means to do after. I have the nagging feeling he will hide from Nynaeve he intends to die, will have arranged all that secretely with Alivia.













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I figure I have one last chance to get out my underlying assumption on the series - 08/11/2012 12:32:46 AM 2344 Views
The other way around, I believe. - 08/11/2012 01:43:00 AM 1251 Views
Interesting, a few questions..... - 08/11/2012 05:25:48 AM 832 Views
I'm not so sure about a few things - 08/11/2012 05:28:18 PM 755 Views
Re: I'm not so sure about a few things - 08/11/2012 09:38:21 PM 882 Views
I think you may be trying to hard to satisfy all of the various Dreams, Visions etc... - 10/11/2012 12:41:03 AM 699 Views
Re: I think you may be trying to hard to satisfy all of the various Dreams, Visions etc... - 10/11/2012 06:54:44 PM 778 Views
I don't think the Finn theory is likely - 11/11/2012 08:14:59 AM 742 Views
Re: I don't think the Finn theory is likely - 11/11/2012 06:18:01 PM 1137 Views
Re: I don't think the Finn theory is likely - 11/11/2012 10:35:42 PM 660 Views
Re: I don't think the Finn theory is likely - 12/11/2012 02:16:03 AM 960 Views
Re: I don't think the Finn theory is likely - 12/11/2012 05:48:20 PM 960 Views
Moiraine and Lanfear - 12/11/2012 06:06:11 PM 706 Views
Re: Moiraine and Lanfear - 12/11/2012 06:45:22 PM 732 Views
Re: Moiraine and Lanfear - 12/11/2012 11:45:40 PM 748 Views
Re: Moiraine and Lanfear - 16/11/2012 12:11:28 AM 691 Views
I don't think so - 16/11/2012 01:22:55 AM 689 Views
dang it, somehow a bunch of my message vanished - 16/11/2012 03:36:00 AM 662 Views
Re: dang it, somehow a bunch of my message vanished - 16/11/2012 05:25:29 PM 663 Views
Re: dang it, somehow a bunch of my message vanished - 16/11/2012 05:32:16 PM 691 Views
Well.. according to Birigtte I am already partly correct - 16/11/2012 10:03:01 PM 752 Views
Re: I don't think the Finn theory is likely - 12/11/2012 08:26:20 PM 752 Views
Re: I don't think the Finn theory is likely - 14/11/2012 04:32:32 PM 744 Views
Re: I don't think the Finn theory is likely - 15/11/2012 09:50:13 PM 700 Views
Re: I don't think the Finn theory is likely - 15/11/2012 11:30:07 PM 769 Views
I always thought fades were just channelers and they used the TP instead of the OP - 15/11/2012 06:29:55 PM 635 Views
Re: I always thought fades were just channelers and they used the TP instead of the OP - 16/11/2012 12:20:17 AM 632 Views
Think of it as them being learners not sparkers. Or maybe wilders. - 18/11/2012 07:29:17 PM 598 Views
Re: Think of it as them being learners not sparkers. Or maybe wilders. - 18/11/2012 10:40:49 PM 721 Views
No DO ok is a good explanation of that - 19/11/2012 09:07:27 PM 660 Views
Re: No DO ok is a good explanation of that - 20/11/2012 01:32:49 PM 606 Views
The Blight is an example of compressed reality - 20/11/2012 08:46:10 PM 601 Views
Re: The Blight is an example of compressed reality - 20/11/2012 09:56:13 PM 631 Views
Re: The Blight is an example of compressed reality - 23/11/2012 08:57:10 PM 661 Views
Re: The Blight is an example of compressed reality - 23/11/2012 11:38:55 PM 621 Views
I think as a channeler she had a legitimate sense of the folding. - 26/11/2012 10:31:26 PM 636 Views
Why so complicated? - 20/11/2012 01:52:09 PM 591 Views
Re: Why so complicated? - 20/11/2012 09:43:12 PM 539 Views
Please explain holding Justice to distract Shai'tan - 08/11/2012 05:56:36 PM 830 Views
Re: Please explain holding Justice to distract Shai'tan - 08/11/2012 10:16:05 PM 900 Views
We obviously disagree about the series - 09/11/2012 02:40:07 AM 894 Views
A misinterpeted prophecy... - 09/11/2012 03:01:17 AM 818 Views
Re: We obviously disagree about the series - 09/11/2012 10:30:19 PM 840 Views

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