It sounds like we're at the same stage of vision of the AOL
DomA Send a noteboard - 08/11/2012 07:48:17 PM
Demandred isn't the pinnacle of what an Aes Sedai could be in the AOL, and that doesn't even stem from his treachery. It starts because we now know conclusively that Lews Therin himself was no angel, and probably not at all as grand as we were led to believe. He was a lesser accomplished form of a flawed individual, despite all his strengths. There are third age characters with ten times the strength of character as Lews Therin or Demandred.
I fully agree.
Bel Medar and LTT appear not all that removed from this Age's Aes Sedai.
Both are gifted in the OP, but not in the Nynaeve/Semirhage ways, with one outstanding Talent that defined their career path.
Both appear to be scholars, or at least intellectuals, and both were power-obsessed politicians, who made a career rising through the hierarchy of the Aes Sedai Guild, as close to the top as they managed to. LTT was an artist. Both of them were writers, and for all we know they were novelists, not big time OP (they'd have been at the Collam Daan if they were) or political essayists! The whole society was deeply aesthetic, centered on its pleasures, and obsessed with gaining status.. you get the feeling that for many AS the primary motivation to serve was to shine enough to gained the status a third name gave an individual. There were AS like Moghedien and Balthamel not that interested in their ability, nor service. It's what Graendal denounced by making herself an abstemious ascete them turning into a caricature of the wost of AOL society.
Looking at Nynaeve's discoveries, you even get the feeling perhaps the AOL era before the Collapse had long been nearly stagnating, the greatest discoveries far in the past and the OP scholars more interested in competition between them then anything. Cliques everywhere.
The pre-WOS relations and situations of LTT/Bel Medar might not have been all that different, on a different scale of OP knowledge and sophistication of politics, than those of Elaida. Status, power, political bickering, lavish palaces, trophy wives.
The WOS woke them up. They accomplished great things, but LTT became more and more tyranical and stubborn, and Bel Medat ended up switching side.
No doubt Bel Medar is a genius of strategy and this will play out a lot, but indeed we have all signs he's not that great or brave physically and he hates getting his hands dirty. He's no daring soldier who will duel Rand, he's one of those backroom generals. A genius one. Demandred sounds much closer to a more competent Rhavin or Be'lal than a Sammael. As far as we can tell, Sammael is more comparable to LTT in personality.
RJ seems to have made Demandred into a kind of exagerated dark mirror of himself: RJ had a scholarly (scientific) background, got conscripted as a soldier, is a military-history buff and weapon collector, and after Vietnam he became a popular writer. And in his AOL, writers and artists could become politicians (well, there's Reagan...).
Demandred was an intellectual, writer and military-history buff who was forced to become a general.
Indeed.
It's all very odd. These Forsaken know each other from the AOL (speaking of lounging about in the Ansaline Gardens), and the community seems so small - Lews Therin was personal friends with some of the Forsaken, he dated Mierin, Demandred wanted Ilyena. It's all very 'inbred' if you ask me.
It seems like the social circles were indeed small, highly hierarchical and very cliquey. In many ways I'm reminded of the Hall and the various ajahs. Mesaana probably didn't have to bend her imagination too far. I think the flaws of the AOL are obvious to anyone who's really studied the series. It was no utopia, and the focus on getting a third name could easily be shifted to the focus of getting the third name. It's even likely that people without third names couldn't enter various social circles (Lews Therin calling Moiraine a Little Sister says so much about him - he actually sounds like Rahvin at that point). As readers even we can fall into the 'Age of Legends' trap.
While absolutely not defending the Shadow at all, I can completely see why some of the Forsaken turned. If one looks at Lanfear, you can see to what lengths she was prepared to go to get a third name and the result. It's no coincidence that the greatest philosopher started ranting about destructive theories and wrote books such as the Absence of Meaning, or that the world's great ascetic turned into a perversion, or that the great Healer defiled her own profession. Mesaana may have truly had significant talent for academia and the 'unsuited to research' is what broke her - the Collam Daan could certainly have been a cesspool of snooty academics who accepted people more on whim and less on ability.
I don't even think its impossible that Demandred and Lews Therin could have been interchangeable had the situations been slightly different. The AOL seems to have been a breeding ground for intense jealousy and an almost rabid desire to compete and see who could develop the most, the fastest. With everyone of importance living for several centuries, the stagnation would have been palpable.
A lot of this derives from rather raw, blunt observations on human nature and the forces that drive it.
There used to be a time, not so long ago, where the strength and agressivity of males was a matter of plain survival. A function of all religions is to define and strictly code what's beneficial to the survival of a group vs. what is detrimental (with the ensuing flaws when the systems survive too long... female infidelity was a grievous thing when people assigned magical value to blood and bloodlines. Not so relevant in the days when people can use sperm banks... it became a purely abstract "moral" issue. Same for homosexuality, a danger among a desert people with extremely low rate of survival of its offspring, not relevant anymore today, again an abstract matter of morality mostly religious believers care about).
Anyway, another function of those early cultural and religious codes was to channel some aspects of human nature and diffuse their danger. Killing your own, raping your women etc. eventually became "sins", or dishonorable among warrior people. It refocussed male agressivity against "the other", the non believers, the other tribes. We still have not adjusted to the fact humanity is now a whole tribe, we're still stuck with the more unsavoury and detrimental aspects of monotheism that define the "them" vs. the "us".
It seems to be the same sort of observations that RJ used for his AOL.
LTT and his contemporaries were probably standing on the shoulders of giants. Their time was hardly the best of their Age, they were in decline. Their ancestors had created this utopia, they were caught in it, in the phase when it was becoming corrupt and decaying.
The AOL had removed all the problems regarding basic needs. Men didn't have to protect anyone, nor fight for food. Everybody ate, everybody was safe enough and there were police for the rest. Political mechanisms were in place to avoid war, the whole concept of warfare had been eradicated.
But instincts and human nature remain, and it would be the more present as old ideals surrounding the "Servants of All" lost their meaning, when being a servant of all meant you served a little and not quite as often as in the beginnings of the Guild. It sounds like LTT's era when for the most part the system worked like a well-oiled machine, Aes Sedai were keener to mass product ter'angreal for every uses than to go provide the service in person. Less and less new uses were being developped for the OP, and more and more AS researchers skipped the simple (like Nynaeve's method to heal severing) to venture in the overly complex, abstract and esoterical... vacuoles, mirror worlds, drilling holes in the pattern and so on. The Guild wasn't called in the fields with the Aiel anymore, someone had made Nym for that. Aes Sedai more and more devoted their talents to pointless ventures, overly complex engineering feats etc.
So yeah, you get the feeling in LTT's time there were the masses of AS, a lot of them like Balthamel/Moghedien were totally wasting their talent and rarely called upon as there was nothing to do - nothing the Guild still had the drive to put in motion anymore, too busy with the internal competetion, and the Guild clique who had turned their greed, ambitions, aggressivity, desire for power into this vast contest for status and power. Shining in that society must have been exacting indeed, but also similar to what drives financiers to amass fortunes in hundreds of billions, far more than they and everyone they know could spend in a lifetime for personal use. They could stop, and spend their best years of life doing other things, in complete freedom, but they don't.
And yeah, the White Tower and it's Ivory Tower and apathy with the OP hardly seem unique, they were the heirs of the late AOL guild. They had a brief rebound with the WOS, but almost entirely devoted to devising ways to destroy with the OP, stuff the post-breaking AS turned their backs on. They had lost a lot of the work of "giants" that preceeded the time of LTT, but they inherited a great deal of the apathy of the AS of LTT's time, and a lot of their culture...
And yes, it's not too surprising 50% of the AS eventually joined the Shadow. And I suspect at first the really strong/succesful ones were rare among the Chosen, mostly it was the masses unable to shine in the Guild, the lazy ones, the bitter ones etc. until the Shadow became strong enough to start to attract some of the ones vying for the top positions of the Guild or their fields but who couldn't reach as far as they dreamed of... the Barid Bel Medar for instance, who's gone where LTT wouldn't follow to outshine him.
The more the series progressed, the less LTT appears to be "squeaky clean"... arrogant to the point of considering himself the pinnacle of his Age (a flaw common to many of his time, it appears), divisive, terribly stubborn and full of himself, overly ambitious, probably extremely sensitive to the slightest mark of disrespect, and if we go with Moghedien's comment (or was it Graendal), he was also insufferably sanctimonious about the cosmology (which recalls most Elan Morin). He wasn't a terrible man, we've seen much better aspects of him too, but he was no white as snow hero either.
The irony is that a few channellers of this time like Nynaeve might have outshined most of the AOL AS with the same education... but probably not had they been raised in the culture of the AOL... the whole AOL society had removed most of the impetus for the AS to shine in what would have really mattered, too busy creating the most amazing Virtual Reality ter'angreal that would flabbergast everyone at the fashionable social spot to be seen at that week, if you had the status to be allowed in.
[Mik's Warp] - Demandred is.....*click to find out*
05/11/2012 01:06:42 PM
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There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)...
05/11/2012 02:10:07 PM
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Re: There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)...
06/11/2012 12:40:54 PM
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I say Roederan is a better choice simply because of where he is located
06/11/2012 11:01:28 PM
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Re: I say Roederan is a better choice simply because of where he is located
07/11/2012 09:42:00 AM
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Plausible, albeit antilclimactic *NM*
05/11/2012 06:32:38 PM
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Unless Mat is Demandred, at this point it will be anticlimactic. *NM*
06/11/2012 04:02:38 AM
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You've tried too hard...
05/11/2012 07:53:41 PM
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Will be so disappointed if the Shadow's greatest (non-crazy) leader is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky
05/11/2012 08:57:59 PM
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I doubt Mat will kill him personally but
05/11/2012 09:24:48 PM
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I don't know
06/11/2012 02:01:41 AM
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My prediction of how it plays out...
06/11/2012 07:12:15 AM
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I don't think that's likely
06/11/2012 06:04:55 PM
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Re: I don't think that's likely
06/11/2012 11:21:21 PM
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Re: I don't think that's likely
07/11/2012 08:14:28 PM
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Re: I don't think that's likely
07/11/2012 09:05:07 PM
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Re: I don't think that's likely
08/11/2012 05:52:16 PM
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It sounds like we're at the same stage of vision of the AOL
08/11/2012 07:48:17 PM
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Statistics refute some of that...
09/11/2012 07:35:59 AM
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We're not talking about the same things...
09/11/2012 11:31:12 PM
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The real question is how much of that was caused by the Bore and the Collapse
09/11/2012 11:50:20 PM
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It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent.
09/11/2012 11:43:26 PM
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Re: It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent.
10/11/2012 07:34:34 AM
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You're putting the Evil on a pedestal.
06/11/2012 03:12:38 AM
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... is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky
06/11/2012 08:45:02 PM
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Mat is essentially the man (men) who wrote the books Demandred studied
06/11/2012 10:42:40 PM
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I didn't try hard at all; Demandred found me...
06/11/2012 03:31:41 PM
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My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk
06/11/2012 10:54:50 PM
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Re: My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk
07/11/2012 12:07:02 AM
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Well, it instantly gives the Shadow access to attacking every coastal city...
07/11/2012 10:32:23 AM
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If he married Nynaeve and Moiraine he'd have his wives at Rand's side in the Pit too....
07/11/2012 03:28:38 PM
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I find that approach unnecessarily convoluted. Just hit them with 1 billion Trollocs and crush them.
08/11/2012 07:00:36 AM
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May I ask some practical questions?
08/11/2012 05:28:41 PM
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Re: May I ask some practical questions?
08/11/2012 10:35:38 PM
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Re: May I ask some practical questions?
10/11/2012 12:09:15 AM
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Re: May I ask some practical questions?
10/11/2012 03:11:59 AM
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LOL ... Seems more than a little far fetched *NM*
10/11/2012 06:17:34 AM
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Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about
09/11/2012 02:57:16 PM
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Re: Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about
09/11/2012 09:03:14 PM
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I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind.
09/11/2012 11:57:34 PM
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Re: I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind.
10/11/2012 10:08:04 PM
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I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage
11/11/2012 07:45:19 AM
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Re: I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage
12/11/2012 02:57:08 PM
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Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing
12/11/2012 04:11:50 PM
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Re: Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing
12/11/2012 06:01:33 PM
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Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain
12/11/2012 06:51:24 PM
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Re: Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain
12/11/2012 09:30:57 PM
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Not to belabor the point
12/11/2012 10:56:39 PM
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Re: Not to belabor the point
13/11/2012 12:46:21 AM
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I think you are way off base on the economics
13/11/2012 01:24:35 AM
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