Active Users:832 Time:23/02/2025 06:18:13 AM
Re: I don't think that's likely Sidious Send a noteboard - 08/11/2012 05:52:16 PM
Demandred isn't the pinnacle of what an Aes Sedai could be in the AOL, and that doesn't even stem from his treachery. It starts because we now know conclusively that Lews Therin himself was no angel, and probably not at all as grand as we were led to believe. He was a lesser accomplished form of a flawed individual, despite all his strengths. There are third age characters with ten times the strength of character as Lews Therin or Demandred.


I fully agree.

Bel Medar and LTT appear not all that removed from this Age's Aes Sedai.

Both are gifted in the OP, but not in the Nynaeve/Semirhage ways, with one outstanding Talent that defined their career path.

Both appear to be scholars, or at least intellectuals, and both were power-obsessed politicians, who made a career rising through the hierarchy of the Aes Sedai Guild, as close to the top as they managed to. LTT was an artist. Both of them were writers, and for all we know they were novelists, not big time OP (they'd have been at the Collam Daan if they were) or political essayists! The whole society was deeply aesthetic, centered on its pleasures, and obsessed with gaining status.. you get the feeling that for many AS the primary motivation to serve was to shine enough to gained the status a third name gave an individual. There were AS like Moghedien and Balthamel not that interested in their ability, nor service. It's what Graendal denounced by making herself an abstemious ascete them turning into a caricature of the wost of AOL society.

Looking at Nynaeve's discoveries, you even get the feeling perhaps the AOL era before the Collapse had long been nearly stagnating, the greatest discoveries far in the past and the OP scholars more interested in competition between them then anything. Cliques everywhere.

The pre-WOS relations and situations of LTT/Bel Medar might not have been all that different, on a different scale of OP knowledge and sophistication of politics, than those of Elaida. Status, power, political bickering, lavish palaces, trophy wives.

The WOS woke them up. They accomplished great things, but LTT became more and more tyranical and stubborn, and Bel Medat ended up switching side.

No doubt Bel Medar is a genius of strategy and this will play out a lot, but indeed we have all signs he's not that great or brave physically and he hates getting his hands dirty. He's no daring soldier who will duel Rand, he's one of those backroom generals. A genius one. Demandred sounds much closer to a more competent Rhavin or Be'lal than a Sammael. As far as we can tell, Sammael is more comparable to LTT in personality.

RJ seems to have made Demandred into a kind of exagerated dark mirror of himself: RJ had a scholarly (scientific) background, got conscripted as a soldier, is a military-history buff and weapon collector, and after Vietnam he became a popular writer. And in his AOL, writers and artists could become politicians (well, there's Reagan...).

Demandred was an intellectual, writer and military-history buff who was forced to become a general.


Indeed.

It's all very odd. These Forsaken know each other from the AOL (speaking of lounging about in the Ansaline Gardens), and the community seems so small - Lews Therin was personal friends with some of the Forsaken, he dated Mierin, Demandred wanted Ilyena. It's all very 'inbred' if you ask me.

It seems like the social circles were indeed small, highly hierarchical and very cliquey. In many ways I'm reminded of the Hall and the various ajahs. Mesaana probably didn't have to bend her imagination too far. I think the flaws of the AOL are obvious to anyone who's really studied the series. It was no utopia, and the focus on getting a third name could easily be shifted to the focus of getting the third name. It's even likely that people without third names couldn't enter various social circles (Lews Therin calling Moiraine a Little Sister says so much about him - he actually sounds like Rahvin at that point). As readers even we can fall into the 'Age of Legends' trap.

While absolutely not defending the Shadow at all, I can completely see why some of the Forsaken turned. If one looks at Lanfear, you can see to what lengths she was prepared to go to get a third name and the result. It's no coincidence that the greatest philosopher started ranting about destructive theories and wrote books such as the Absence of Meaning, or that the world's great ascetic turned into a perversion, or that the great Healer defiled her own profession. Mesaana may have truly had significant talent for academia and the 'unsuited to research' is what broke her - the Collam Daan could certainly have been a cesspool of snooty academics who accepted people more on whim and less on ability.

I don't even think its impossible that Demandred and Lews Therin could have been interchangeable had the situations been slightly different. The AOL seems to have been a breeding ground for intense jealousy and an almost rabid desire to compete and see who could develop the most, the fastest. With everyone of importance living for several centuries, the stagnation would have been palpable.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Reply to message
[Mik's Warp] - Demandred is.....*click to find out* - 05/11/2012 01:06:42 PM 2830 Views
There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)... - 05/11/2012 02:10:07 PM 1334 Views
Nah.. forget that - 05/11/2012 08:29:53 PM 1208 Views
Re: Nah.. forget that - 05/11/2012 10:07:46 PM 1068 Views
Re: There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)... - 06/11/2012 12:40:54 PM 1250 Views
I'm not saying it's not a well-reasoned theory; it is. - 06/11/2012 06:02:36 PM 1274 Views
I say Roederan is a better choice simply because of where he is located - 06/11/2012 11:01:28 PM 1163 Views
Re: I say Roederan is a better choice simply because of where he is located - 07/11/2012 09:42:00 AM 1429 Views
I applaud your effort, but to be honest I just can't see it - 07/11/2012 04:48:17 PM 1035 Views
Re: I applaud your effort, but to be honest I just can't see it - 07/11/2012 08:36:34 PM 1294 Views
There has been a lot of waste in WOT..... - 06/11/2012 06:26:56 PM 984 Views
LIKE! *NM* - 09/12/2012 02:37:49 PM 1067 Views
Whoops *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:27:06 PM 575 Views
Plausible, albeit antilclimactic *NM* - 05/11/2012 06:32:38 PM 635 Views
Unless Mat is Demandred, at this point it will be anticlimactic. *NM* - 06/11/2012 04:02:38 AM 596 Views
That would be EPIC *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:53:30 PM 600 Views
That would be EPIC *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:53:31 PM 599 Views
You've tried too hard... - 05/11/2012 07:53:41 PM 2886 Views
Will be so disappointed if the Shadow's greatest (non-crazy) leader is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 05/11/2012 08:57:59 PM 1179 Views
I doubt Mat will kill him personally but - 05/11/2012 09:24:48 PM 958 Views
I don't know - 06/11/2012 02:01:41 AM 975 Views
My prediction of how it plays out... - 06/11/2012 07:12:15 AM 1067 Views
I don't think that's likely - 06/11/2012 06:04:55 PM 1031 Views
LOL ... it will be a saying in the next Age - 06/11/2012 10:36:04 PM 964 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 06/11/2012 11:21:21 PM 974 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 07/11/2012 08:14:28 PM 1098 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 07/11/2012 09:05:07 PM 1198 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 08/11/2012 05:52:16 PM 1011 Views
It sounds like we're at the same stage of vision of the AOL - 08/11/2012 07:48:17 PM 959 Views
Statistics refute some of that... - 09/11/2012 07:35:59 AM 982 Views
We're not talking about the same things... - 09/11/2012 11:31:12 PM 954 Views
It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent. - 09/11/2012 11:43:26 PM 1156 Views
Re: It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent. - 10/11/2012 07:34:34 AM 1071 Views
You seriously believe that? - 10/11/2012 04:17:09 PM 996 Views
Mat has grown quiet a bit since those days - 06/11/2012 01:55:48 AM 1139 Views
You're putting the Evil on a pedestal. - 06/11/2012 03:12:38 AM 885 Views
No, just desperately trying to raise the stakes a bit... - 06/11/2012 07:00:59 AM 1043 Views
That's essentially what I was saying - 06/11/2012 03:35:45 PM 1160 Views
hmmm - 06/11/2012 10:27:00 AM 1271 Views
... is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 06/11/2012 08:45:02 PM 1119 Views
Mat is essentially the man (men) who wrote the books Demandred studied - 06/11/2012 10:42:40 PM 939 Views
Exactly... - 06/11/2012 11:45:36 PM 1114 Views
... is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 06/11/2012 08:45:29 PM 1155 Views
I didn't try hard at all; Demandred found me... - 06/11/2012 03:31:41 PM 1127 Views
My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk - 06/11/2012 10:54:50 PM 1094 Views
Re: My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk - 07/11/2012 12:07:02 AM 1155 Views
Well, it instantly gives the Shadow access to attacking every coastal city... - 07/11/2012 10:32:23 AM 1022 Views
Exactly! - 07/11/2012 10:54:14 AM 1572 Views
If he married Nynaeve and Moiraine he'd have his wives at Rand's side in the Pit too.... - 07/11/2012 03:28:38 PM 994 Views
I find that approach unnecessarily convoluted. Just hit them with 1 billion Trollocs and crush them. - 08/11/2012 07:00:36 AM 989 Views
Not likely he has that many... - 08/11/2012 03:00:32 PM 922 Views
May I ask some practical questions? - 08/11/2012 05:28:41 PM 925 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 08/11/2012 10:35:38 PM 1053 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 12:09:15 AM 987 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 03:11:59 AM 973 Views
LOL ... Seems more than a little far fetched *NM* - 10/11/2012 06:17:34 AM 542 Views
Well you asked for an explanation - 13/11/2012 10:23:41 PM 894 Views
fair enough *NM* - 14/11/2012 01:31:52 AM 516 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 07:15:58 PM 1028 Views
Exactly! - 11/11/2012 07:38:46 AM 1020 Views
Good practical questions... - 09/11/2012 07:24:14 AM 1028 Views
He doesn't need the SF for that - 09/11/2012 03:00:34 PM 806 Views
Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about - 09/11/2012 02:57:16 PM 859 Views
Re: Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about - 09/11/2012 09:03:14 PM 987 Views
I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind. - 09/11/2012 11:57:34 PM 948 Views
Re: I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind. - 10/11/2012 10:08:04 PM 2499 Views
I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage - 11/11/2012 07:45:19 AM 1006 Views
Re: I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage - 12/11/2012 02:57:08 PM 1037 Views
Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing - 12/11/2012 04:11:50 PM 1062 Views
Re: Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing - 12/11/2012 06:01:33 PM 1147 Views
Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain - 12/11/2012 06:51:24 PM 1175 Views
Re: Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain - 12/11/2012 09:30:57 PM 977 Views
Not to belabor the point - 12/11/2012 10:56:39 PM 935 Views
Re: Not to belabor the point - 13/11/2012 12:46:21 AM 896 Views
I think you are way off base on the economics - 13/11/2012 01:24:35 AM 876 Views
Re: I think you are way off base on the economics - 13/11/2012 03:48:40 PM 978 Views
no reason to *NM* - 14/11/2012 01:35:55 AM 535 Views
I don't see the problem... - 07/11/2012 10:52:49 AM 1712 Views
This is preposterous - 07/11/2012 04:15:11 PM 1396 Views
Who? - 06/11/2012 07:29:46 PM 925 Views
Paah, he's clearly on the Isle of Madmen to the south. - 10/11/2012 03:28:26 AM 1340 Views

Reply to Message