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Re: I don't think that's likely Sidious Send a noteboard - 08/11/2012 05:52:16 PM
Demandred isn't the pinnacle of what an Aes Sedai could be in the AOL, and that doesn't even stem from his treachery. It starts because we now know conclusively that Lews Therin himself was no angel, and probably not at all as grand as we were led to believe. He was a lesser accomplished form of a flawed individual, despite all his strengths. There are third age characters with ten times the strength of character as Lews Therin or Demandred.


I fully agree.

Bel Medar and LTT appear not all that removed from this Age's Aes Sedai.

Both are gifted in the OP, but not in the Nynaeve/Semirhage ways, with one outstanding Talent that defined their career path.

Both appear to be scholars, or at least intellectuals, and both were power-obsessed politicians, who made a career rising through the hierarchy of the Aes Sedai Guild, as close to the top as they managed to. LTT was an artist. Both of them were writers, and for all we know they were novelists, not big time OP (they'd have been at the Collam Daan if they were) or political essayists! The whole society was deeply aesthetic, centered on its pleasures, and obsessed with gaining status.. you get the feeling that for many AS the primary motivation to serve was to shine enough to gained the status a third name gave an individual. There were AS like Moghedien and Balthamel not that interested in their ability, nor service. It's what Graendal denounced by making herself an abstemious ascete them turning into a caricature of the wost of AOL society.

Looking at Nynaeve's discoveries, you even get the feeling perhaps the AOL era before the Collapse had long been nearly stagnating, the greatest discoveries far in the past and the OP scholars more interested in competition between them then anything. Cliques everywhere.

The pre-WOS relations and situations of LTT/Bel Medar might not have been all that different, on a different scale of OP knowledge and sophistication of politics, than those of Elaida. Status, power, political bickering, lavish palaces, trophy wives.

The WOS woke them up. They accomplished great things, but LTT became more and more tyranical and stubborn, and Bel Medat ended up switching side.

No doubt Bel Medar is a genius of strategy and this will play out a lot, but indeed we have all signs he's not that great or brave physically and he hates getting his hands dirty. He's no daring soldier who will duel Rand, he's one of those backroom generals. A genius one. Demandred sounds much closer to a more competent Rhavin or Be'lal than a Sammael. As far as we can tell, Sammael is more comparable to LTT in personality.

RJ seems to have made Demandred into a kind of exagerated dark mirror of himself: RJ had a scholarly (scientific) background, got conscripted as a soldier, is a military-history buff and weapon collector, and after Vietnam he became a popular writer. And in his AOL, writers and artists could become politicians (well, there's Reagan...).

Demandred was an intellectual, writer and military-history buff who was forced to become a general.


Indeed.

It's all very odd. These Forsaken know each other from the AOL (speaking of lounging about in the Ansaline Gardens), and the community seems so small - Lews Therin was personal friends with some of the Forsaken, he dated Mierin, Demandred wanted Ilyena. It's all very 'inbred' if you ask me.

It seems like the social circles were indeed small, highly hierarchical and very cliquey. In many ways I'm reminded of the Hall and the various ajahs. Mesaana probably didn't have to bend her imagination too far. I think the flaws of the AOL are obvious to anyone who's really studied the series. It was no utopia, and the focus on getting a third name could easily be shifted to the focus of getting the third name. It's even likely that people without third names couldn't enter various social circles (Lews Therin calling Moiraine a Little Sister says so much about him - he actually sounds like Rahvin at that point). As readers even we can fall into the 'Age of Legends' trap.

While absolutely not defending the Shadow at all, I can completely see why some of the Forsaken turned. If one looks at Lanfear, you can see to what lengths she was prepared to go to get a third name and the result. It's no coincidence that the greatest philosopher started ranting about destructive theories and wrote books such as the Absence of Meaning, or that the world's great ascetic turned into a perversion, or that the great Healer defiled her own profession. Mesaana may have truly had significant talent for academia and the 'unsuited to research' is what broke her - the Collam Daan could certainly have been a cesspool of snooty academics who accepted people more on whim and less on ability.

I don't even think its impossible that Demandred and Lews Therin could have been interchangeable had the situations been slightly different. The AOL seems to have been a breeding ground for intense jealousy and an almost rabid desire to compete and see who could develop the most, the fastest. With everyone of importance living for several centuries, the stagnation would have been palpable.
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[Mik's Warp] - Demandred is.....*click to find out* - 05/11/2012 01:06:42 PM 2779 Views
There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)... - 05/11/2012 02:10:07 PM 1321 Views
Nah.. forget that - 05/11/2012 08:29:53 PM 1177 Views
Re: Nah.. forget that - 05/11/2012 10:07:46 PM 1034 Views
Re: There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)... - 06/11/2012 12:40:54 PM 1220 Views
I'm not saying it's not a well-reasoned theory; it is. - 06/11/2012 06:02:36 PM 1241 Views
I say Roederan is a better choice simply because of where he is located - 06/11/2012 11:01:28 PM 1134 Views
Re: I say Roederan is a better choice simply because of where he is located - 07/11/2012 09:42:00 AM 1389 Views
I applaud your effort, but to be honest I just can't see it - 07/11/2012 04:48:17 PM 1001 Views
Re: I applaud your effort, but to be honest I just can't see it - 07/11/2012 08:36:34 PM 1260 Views
There has been a lot of waste in WOT..... - 06/11/2012 06:26:56 PM 955 Views
LIKE! *NM* - 09/12/2012 02:37:49 PM 1051 Views
Whoops *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:27:06 PM 569 Views
Plausible, albeit antilclimactic *NM* - 05/11/2012 06:32:38 PM 622 Views
Unless Mat is Demandred, at this point it will be anticlimactic. *NM* - 06/11/2012 04:02:38 AM 583 Views
That would be EPIC *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:53:30 PM 588 Views
That would be EPIC *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:53:31 PM 584 Views
You've tried too hard... - 05/11/2012 07:53:41 PM 2850 Views
Will be so disappointed if the Shadow's greatest (non-crazy) leader is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 05/11/2012 08:57:59 PM 1167 Views
I doubt Mat will kill him personally but - 05/11/2012 09:24:48 PM 927 Views
I don't know - 06/11/2012 02:01:41 AM 945 Views
My prediction of how it plays out... - 06/11/2012 07:12:15 AM 1038 Views
I don't think that's likely - 06/11/2012 06:04:55 PM 996 Views
LOL ... it will be a saying in the next Age - 06/11/2012 10:36:04 PM 932 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 06/11/2012 11:21:21 PM 937 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 07/11/2012 08:14:28 PM 1064 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 07/11/2012 09:05:07 PM 1165 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 08/11/2012 05:52:16 PM 980 Views
It sounds like we're at the same stage of vision of the AOL - 08/11/2012 07:48:17 PM 929 Views
Statistics refute some of that... - 09/11/2012 07:35:59 AM 949 Views
We're not talking about the same things... - 09/11/2012 11:31:12 PM 922 Views
It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent. - 09/11/2012 11:43:26 PM 1124 Views
Re: It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent. - 10/11/2012 07:34:34 AM 1040 Views
You seriously believe that? - 10/11/2012 04:17:09 PM 970 Views
Mat has grown quiet a bit since those days - 06/11/2012 01:55:48 AM 1103 Views
You're putting the Evil on a pedestal. - 06/11/2012 03:12:38 AM 856 Views
No, just desperately trying to raise the stakes a bit... - 06/11/2012 07:00:59 AM 1013 Views
That's essentially what I was saying - 06/11/2012 03:35:45 PM 1128 Views
hmmm - 06/11/2012 10:27:00 AM 1256 Views
... is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 06/11/2012 08:45:02 PM 1088 Views
Mat is essentially the man (men) who wrote the books Demandred studied - 06/11/2012 10:42:40 PM 913 Views
Exactly... - 06/11/2012 11:45:36 PM 1086 Views
... is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 06/11/2012 08:45:29 PM 1122 Views
I didn't try hard at all; Demandred found me... - 06/11/2012 03:31:41 PM 1100 Views
My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk - 06/11/2012 10:54:50 PM 1063 Views
Re: My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk - 07/11/2012 12:07:02 AM 1122 Views
Well, it instantly gives the Shadow access to attacking every coastal city... - 07/11/2012 10:32:23 AM 988 Views
Exactly! - 07/11/2012 10:54:14 AM 1539 Views
If he married Nynaeve and Moiraine he'd have his wives at Rand's side in the Pit too.... - 07/11/2012 03:28:38 PM 963 Views
I find that approach unnecessarily convoluted. Just hit them with 1 billion Trollocs and crush them. - 08/11/2012 07:00:36 AM 948 Views
Not likely he has that many... - 08/11/2012 03:00:32 PM 882 Views
May I ask some practical questions? - 08/11/2012 05:28:41 PM 880 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 08/11/2012 10:35:38 PM 1022 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 12:09:15 AM 949 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 03:11:59 AM 951 Views
LOL ... Seems more than a little far fetched *NM* - 10/11/2012 06:17:34 AM 532 Views
Well you asked for an explanation - 13/11/2012 10:23:41 PM 869 Views
fair enough *NM* - 14/11/2012 01:31:52 AM 503 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 07:15:58 PM 999 Views
Exactly! - 11/11/2012 07:38:46 AM 997 Views
Good practical questions... - 09/11/2012 07:24:14 AM 998 Views
He doesn't need the SF for that - 09/11/2012 03:00:34 PM 782 Views
Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about - 09/11/2012 02:57:16 PM 831 Views
Re: Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about - 09/11/2012 09:03:14 PM 957 Views
I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind. - 09/11/2012 11:57:34 PM 922 Views
Re: I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind. - 10/11/2012 10:08:04 PM 2466 Views
I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage - 11/11/2012 07:45:19 AM 976 Views
Re: I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage - 12/11/2012 02:57:08 PM 1007 Views
Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing - 12/11/2012 04:11:50 PM 1026 Views
Re: Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing - 12/11/2012 06:01:33 PM 1121 Views
Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain - 12/11/2012 06:51:24 PM 1150 Views
Re: Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain - 12/11/2012 09:30:57 PM 942 Views
Not to belabor the point - 12/11/2012 10:56:39 PM 903 Views
Re: Not to belabor the point - 13/11/2012 12:46:21 AM 860 Views
I think you are way off base on the economics - 13/11/2012 01:24:35 AM 825 Views
Re: I think you are way off base on the economics - 13/11/2012 03:48:40 PM 944 Views
no reason to *NM* - 14/11/2012 01:35:55 AM 521 Views
I don't see the problem... - 07/11/2012 10:52:49 AM 1666 Views
This is preposterous - 07/11/2012 04:15:11 PM 1368 Views
Who? - 06/11/2012 07:29:46 PM 895 Views
Paah, he's clearly on the Isle of Madmen to the south. - 10/11/2012 03:28:26 AM 1315 Views

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