Active Users:1348 Time:23/10/2025 09:55:40 PM
Re: I don't think that's likely Sidious Send a noteboard - 08/11/2012 05:52:16 PM
Demandred isn't the pinnacle of what an Aes Sedai could be in the AOL, and that doesn't even stem from his treachery. It starts because we now know conclusively that Lews Therin himself was no angel, and probably not at all as grand as we were led to believe. He was a lesser accomplished form of a flawed individual, despite all his strengths. There are third age characters with ten times the strength of character as Lews Therin or Demandred.


I fully agree.

Bel Medar and LTT appear not all that removed from this Age's Aes Sedai.

Both are gifted in the OP, but not in the Nynaeve/Semirhage ways, with one outstanding Talent that defined their career path.

Both appear to be scholars, or at least intellectuals, and both were power-obsessed politicians, who made a career rising through the hierarchy of the Aes Sedai Guild, as close to the top as they managed to. LTT was an artist. Both of them were writers, and for all we know they were novelists, not big time OP (they'd have been at the Collam Daan if they were) or political essayists! The whole society was deeply aesthetic, centered on its pleasures, and obsessed with gaining status.. you get the feeling that for many AS the primary motivation to serve was to shine enough to gained the status a third name gave an individual. There were AS like Moghedien and Balthamel not that interested in their ability, nor service. It's what Graendal denounced by making herself an abstemious ascete them turning into a caricature of the wost of AOL society.

Looking at Nynaeve's discoveries, you even get the feeling perhaps the AOL era before the Collapse had long been nearly stagnating, the greatest discoveries far in the past and the OP scholars more interested in competition between them then anything. Cliques everywhere.

The pre-WOS relations and situations of LTT/Bel Medar might not have been all that different, on a different scale of OP knowledge and sophistication of politics, than those of Elaida. Status, power, political bickering, lavish palaces, trophy wives.

The WOS woke them up. They accomplished great things, but LTT became more and more tyranical and stubborn, and Bel Medat ended up switching side.

No doubt Bel Medar is a genius of strategy and this will play out a lot, but indeed we have all signs he's not that great or brave physically and he hates getting his hands dirty. He's no daring soldier who will duel Rand, he's one of those backroom generals. A genius one. Demandred sounds much closer to a more competent Rhavin or Be'lal than a Sammael. As far as we can tell, Sammael is more comparable to LTT in personality.

RJ seems to have made Demandred into a kind of exagerated dark mirror of himself: RJ had a scholarly (scientific) background, got conscripted as a soldier, is a military-history buff and weapon collector, and after Vietnam he became a popular writer. And in his AOL, writers and artists could become politicians (well, there's Reagan...).

Demandred was an intellectual, writer and military-history buff who was forced to become a general.


Indeed.

It's all very odd. These Forsaken know each other from the AOL (speaking of lounging about in the Ansaline Gardens), and the community seems so small - Lews Therin was personal friends with some of the Forsaken, he dated Mierin, Demandred wanted Ilyena. It's all very 'inbred' if you ask me.

It seems like the social circles were indeed small, highly hierarchical and very cliquey. In many ways I'm reminded of the Hall and the various ajahs. Mesaana probably didn't have to bend her imagination too far. I think the flaws of the AOL are obvious to anyone who's really studied the series. It was no utopia, and the focus on getting a third name could easily be shifted to the focus of getting the third name. It's even likely that people without third names couldn't enter various social circles (Lews Therin calling Moiraine a Little Sister says so much about him - he actually sounds like Rahvin at that point). As readers even we can fall into the 'Age of Legends' trap.

While absolutely not defending the Shadow at all, I can completely see why some of the Forsaken turned. If one looks at Lanfear, you can see to what lengths she was prepared to go to get a third name and the result. It's no coincidence that the greatest philosopher started ranting about destructive theories and wrote books such as the Absence of Meaning, or that the world's great ascetic turned into a perversion, or that the great Healer defiled her own profession. Mesaana may have truly had significant talent for academia and the 'unsuited to research' is what broke her - the Collam Daan could certainly have been a cesspool of snooty academics who accepted people more on whim and less on ability.

I don't even think its impossible that Demandred and Lews Therin could have been interchangeable had the situations been slightly different. The AOL seems to have been a breeding ground for intense jealousy and an almost rabid desire to compete and see who could develop the most, the fastest. With everyone of importance living for several centuries, the stagnation would have been palpable.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Reply to message
[Mik's Warp] - Demandred is.....*click to find out* - 05/11/2012 01:06:42 PM 3072 Views
There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)... - 05/11/2012 02:10:07 PM 1523 Views
Nah.. forget that - 05/11/2012 08:29:53 PM 1405 Views
Re: Nah.. forget that - 05/11/2012 10:07:46 PM 1264 Views
Re: There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)... - 06/11/2012 12:40:54 PM 1435 Views
I'm not saying it's not a well-reasoned theory; it is. - 06/11/2012 06:02:36 PM 1480 Views
I say Roederan is a better choice simply because of where he is located - 06/11/2012 11:01:28 PM 1363 Views
Re: I say Roederan is a better choice simply because of where he is located - 07/11/2012 09:42:00 AM 1626 Views
I applaud your effort, but to be honest I just can't see it - 07/11/2012 04:48:17 PM 1248 Views
Re: I applaud your effort, but to be honest I just can't see it - 07/11/2012 08:36:34 PM 1511 Views
There has been a lot of waste in WOT..... - 06/11/2012 06:26:56 PM 1196 Views
LIKE! *NM* - 09/12/2012 02:37:49 PM 1221 Views
Whoops *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:27:06 PM 735 Views
Plausible, albeit antilclimactic *NM* - 05/11/2012 06:32:38 PM 779 Views
Unless Mat is Demandred, at this point it will be anticlimactic. *NM* - 06/11/2012 04:02:38 AM 748 Views
That would be EPIC *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:53:30 PM 751 Views
That would be EPIC *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:53:31 PM 740 Views
You've tried too hard... - 05/11/2012 07:53:41 PM 3134 Views
Will be so disappointed if the Shadow's greatest (non-crazy) leader is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 05/11/2012 08:57:59 PM 1388 Views
I doubt Mat will kill him personally but - 05/11/2012 09:24:48 PM 1150 Views
I don't know - 06/11/2012 02:01:41 AM 1190 Views
My prediction of how it plays out... - 06/11/2012 07:12:15 AM 1267 Views
I don't think that's likely - 06/11/2012 06:04:55 PM 1245 Views
LOL ... it will be a saying in the next Age - 06/11/2012 10:36:04 PM 1160 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 06/11/2012 11:21:21 PM 1209 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 07/11/2012 08:14:28 PM 1295 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 07/11/2012 09:05:07 PM 1404 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 08/11/2012 05:52:16 PM 1212 Views
It sounds like we're at the same stage of vision of the AOL - 08/11/2012 07:48:17 PM 1183 Views
Statistics refute some of that... - 09/11/2012 07:35:59 AM 1185 Views
We're not talking about the same things... - 09/11/2012 11:31:12 PM 1174 Views
It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent. - 09/11/2012 11:43:26 PM 1352 Views
Re: It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent. - 10/11/2012 07:34:34 AM 1259 Views
You seriously believe that? - 10/11/2012 04:17:09 PM 1201 Views
Mat has grown quiet a bit since those days - 06/11/2012 01:55:48 AM 1345 Views
You're putting the Evil on a pedestal. - 06/11/2012 03:12:38 AM 1094 Views
No, just desperately trying to raise the stakes a bit... - 06/11/2012 07:00:59 AM 1251 Views
That's essentially what I was saying - 06/11/2012 03:35:45 PM 1364 Views
hmmm - 06/11/2012 10:27:00 AM 1585 Views
... is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 06/11/2012 08:45:02 PM 1331 Views
Mat is essentially the man (men) who wrote the books Demandred studied - 06/11/2012 10:42:40 PM 1141 Views
Exactly... - 06/11/2012 11:45:36 PM 1321 Views
... is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 06/11/2012 08:45:29 PM 1370 Views
I didn't try hard at all; Demandred found me... - 06/11/2012 03:31:41 PM 1423 Views
My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk - 06/11/2012 10:54:50 PM 1290 Views
Re: My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk - 07/11/2012 12:07:02 AM 1361 Views
Well, it instantly gives the Shadow access to attacking every coastal city... - 07/11/2012 10:32:23 AM 1242 Views
Exactly! - 07/11/2012 10:54:14 AM 1875 Views
If he married Nynaeve and Moiraine he'd have his wives at Rand's side in the Pit too.... - 07/11/2012 03:28:38 PM 1291 Views
I find that approach unnecessarily convoluted. Just hit them with 1 billion Trollocs and crush them. - 08/11/2012 07:00:36 AM 1219 Views
Not likely he has that many... - 08/11/2012 03:00:32 PM 1186 Views
May I ask some practical questions? - 08/11/2012 05:28:41 PM 1148 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 08/11/2012 10:35:38 PM 1259 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 12:09:15 AM 1192 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 03:11:59 AM 1165 Views
LOL ... Seems more than a little far fetched *NM* - 10/11/2012 06:17:34 AM 688 Views
Well you asked for an explanation - 13/11/2012 10:23:41 PM 1096 Views
fair enough *NM* - 14/11/2012 01:31:52 AM 661 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 07:15:58 PM 1227 Views
Exactly! - 11/11/2012 07:38:46 AM 1222 Views
Good practical questions... - 09/11/2012 07:24:14 AM 1237 Views
He doesn't need the SF for that - 09/11/2012 03:00:34 PM 1003 Views
Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about - 09/11/2012 02:57:16 PM 1067 Views
Re: Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about - 09/11/2012 09:03:14 PM 1196 Views
I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind. - 09/11/2012 11:57:34 PM 1153 Views
Re: I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind. - 10/11/2012 10:08:04 PM 2713 Views
I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage - 11/11/2012 07:45:19 AM 1215 Views
Re: I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage - 12/11/2012 02:57:08 PM 1255 Views
Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing - 12/11/2012 04:11:50 PM 1261 Views
Re: Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing - 12/11/2012 06:01:33 PM 1378 Views
Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain - 12/11/2012 06:51:24 PM 1401 Views
Re: Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain - 12/11/2012 09:30:57 PM 1186 Views
Not to belabor the point - 12/11/2012 10:56:39 PM 1126 Views
Re: Not to belabor the point - 13/11/2012 12:46:21 AM 1119 Views
I think you are way off base on the economics - 13/11/2012 01:24:35 AM 1075 Views
Re: I think you are way off base on the economics - 13/11/2012 03:48:40 PM 1176 Views
no reason to *NM* - 14/11/2012 01:35:55 AM 684 Views
I don't see the problem... - 07/11/2012 10:52:49 AM 2038 Views
This is preposterous - 07/11/2012 04:15:11 PM 1628 Views
Who? - 06/11/2012 07:29:46 PM 1155 Views
Paah, he's clearly on the Isle of Madmen to the south. - 10/11/2012 03:28:26 AM 1567 Views

Reply to Message