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Re: I don't think that's likely Sidious Send a noteboard - 07/11/2012 08:14:28 PM
he'll certainly beat him in battle, thats been on the cards since he went through the arches. The killing blow will no doubt be Rand's (or Taim's if there is a twist), the Demandred v LTT thing has been built up far too long for it to be left to Mat.


RJ loved to punish his bad guys by depriving them of their hearts desire. Demandred dying before having his shot at LTT/ Rand has that sort of RJ sense of justice. Not to mention Super Rand is so far out of any Forsaken's league now it would be a very boring OP duel. All the skill of LTT and what appears to be limitless OP strength, and a Buddha like mentality ... I doubt Rand will do the dead himself. But who knows ... I prepare to yawn through it if he does!


Demandred and Rand's confrontation will take place. Too much build up has gone into it.

At the climax of the conventional battle, Rand has defeated Moridin, and is standing over his injured body. In desperation, Moridin reaches out through the link and swaps bodies with Rand just as Demandred arrives on the scene.

Demandred takes his chance and kills "Rand" (who is now Moridin in truth). Rand - in Moridin's body - then kills Demandred, who thinks he has finally achieved his dream, but has in truth fallen short by a hair yet again.


I find that unlikely for the following reasons...

1. We've seen the cover for AMOL and it looks like Rand is descending into the Pit of Doom with two women. Unless you think Demandred is going to take all of them on, along with Moridin, or that both the women will die, I don't see how it can happen.

2. Rand is a super-channeler Light avatar. Moridin may be able to stand against him if the Dark One directly helps him, but let's be honest, most Darkfriends kill themselves or can't even look at Rand when he's near. He's also probably stronger than all of the Forsaken together now. The Pattern is in complete flux around him. Demandred might just ignite if he comes too close to Rand.

3. Demandred's case isn't much better than other Forsaken. Moridin being the Dark avatar may have a better cause to meet Rand, and even Cyndane has been on a collision path since Lanfear died. Doesn't mean it will happen.

As it is, I actually do think Demandred will have a 'glorious' death. I think it's going to be a team effort. I can totally see Demandred falling to Logain and Cadsuane (or similar) who work as a team to kill him.

I think Mat will defeat him in Battle but not in combat. Mat couldn't even survive an offhand attack by Rahvin, there is no way he can take on someone like Demandred directly.

That said, RJ 'defeated' Demandred with a relatively unimpressive team in WH i.e. Flinn and two normal Aes Sedai. It's possible he'll paint a giant "L" on Demandred's forehead and have some lame duck like Moiraine kill him from behind. Villainy has always been impotent in WoT, but Brandon does seem to have some reserved hope for Demandred as a villain.


I tend to agree, and completely with RJ intending to deprive Demandred of his face-off with Rand. The Forsaken never get what they most desire, and often fall attempting to get just that. It sounds really possible Demandred might die after Rand advises Mat to use Demandred's despair to face Rand to make him make a fatal mistake.

Demandred's real role is to provide a "evil genius" foe for Mat in the last battle, and to provide the Shadow with tangible victories until he falls.

It's clever if convenient how the pieces of the puzzle seem to fall into place. Demandred knows LTT to the toenails, and his only challenges were to study third Age warfare and figure out how LTT would make use of that and a limited number of not that well trained channelers.

Then, LTT also knows Demandred very well, and knows what to expect from him using massive Shadowspawn armies with a far more limited support of channellers.

We were heading straight for a whole "I know what LTT is up to" vs. "I know what Demandred is up to" story arc.

But instead RJ had in mind that Rand would have an epiphany that would lead him to focus his efforts on the Dark One as the Light's Champion, realized LTT had tried way too much to take everything on his shoulders, and thus focus on guiding/inspiring more than leading the world to face the rest, delegating his military leadership to Mat and his generals, and his political leadership to Egwene/Perrin, and his leadership of channellers to Egwene/Logain. Meanwhile he prepares for what no one but him can do: face the DO.

The clever move of RJ (I think, at least it appears to be what RJ has done) was to separate Mat and Rand for the first phase of TG, sending Rand north with his half of the light and Mat south with the other. Mat has a lot of assets to play with thanks to his memories, but RJ made sure to stop this at the TW, so he wouldn't have any knowledge of Demandred or WOS-style channeling, and Demandred is no doubt little better prepared to face something like Mat, hundreds of generals and soldiers merged in a single mind, and gifted with amazing, amazing luck.

To spice things up, RJ also split Mat from his Band, and the only army he can find himself for a while will be the Imperial Seanchan army, which has a whole set of traditions (a mix of pre-Hawking warfare unknown in the Westlands, with Hawkwing-era derived traditions and a whole new tradition that developped from this to incorporate the Seanchan beasts and the damane) that set it apart from his own memories. Not wholly new, he knows Hawkwing-era traditions, but still really quite foreign.

That's more interesting. Mat and the Seanchan will sweat, really sweat against Demandred, and at last he has a real military challenge. And Demandred is forced into a similar challenge because he's prepared to face foes (LTT he knows so well. the Sesanchan he could have studied well) but the Pattern throws at him another altogether, and a very unpredictable one.

Rand in chapter one has to be right: Demandred is prepared to strike in the South. He intends, or was ordered by the DO, to wipe out the Seanchan first and remove the last chance they'd ally with Rand, before moving on Rand. That's another thing Rand is right about: Demandred intends to divide the Light, not face it whole. He no doubts as many "distractions" and "traps" planned to frustrate Rand and forcing him to wait until he's ready for him - Rand stupidly gave Demandred a whole month to prepare for this - but it seems fairly obvious Demandred's plans are gonna be upset mostly by Mat. It's not quite the Seanchan generals he expected to face (and no doubt got Semirhage to provide him Seanchan history books about), that he's gonna have to deal with, and their getting Travelling might also come a as an unwished for complication, as Mat unlike the Seanchan has had some time now to develop ideas on how Travelling could be used...

I get the feeling Demandred has Shadow armies hidden all over the south (just like Rand in chapter one suspects) and intended to use Murandy to provoke a war in northern Altara, defeat the Seanchan armies there (currently deprived of most of their damane and raken/to'raken... if they haven't been redeployed after the raid on TV, and we can suspect they weren't indeed, Fortuona is planning a real campaign on TV, the armies near Murandy and the ones near Illian are there because since Rand's campaign in TPOD the Seanchan fear Andor/Murandy or Illian might strike at Altara), then draw more and more Seanchan armies out of Ebou Dar, having his Shadowspawn armies ambush each of them in turn, and strike at Ebou Dar too with Shadowspawn. To keep the Seanchan even more busy, he could also strike with Shadowspawn at all their other military posts... Almoth, Tanchico, Amadicia.... The Seanchan won't know what hit them.

This isn't gonna work exactly as planned if the Seanchan suddenly manage to get Travelling from Elaida. Demandred's campaign is going to turn sour, Mat will turn the tables and use Travelling to find Shadowspawn armies and move armies to ambush them, but with only damane and no "mass destruction weaves", Mat is still going to face a big challenge, and ultimately overwhelming numbers. My feeling is that Mat will come very near defeat, with all the armies he has left surrounded in Ebou Dar, and the Seanchan will be forced to move north to the other half of the Light.

Then he's gonna have his rematch, this time with Demandred having all or nearly all the Shadow's resources (my prediction: Demandred won't have any large resources of channelers until someone kills Taim and Demandred inherits all the Dreadlords), and Mat leading all the Light has left.

Basically we're gonna move through the book from something closer to the Trolloc Wars w/a genius general to something more reminescent of the last years of the WOS, after technology had failed, after a huge deal of AS and Forsaken had fallen, for the last part of the book.

My feeling is that the early book will have Rand face mostly the plans of Moridin/SH to prevent his early strike at SG (with Cyndane's interference with Slayer etc.) which will involve Moridin's resources like the BA, Taim, Cyndane and Graendal, not getting embroiled on the battlefield with Demandred. This phase could end with victory over the BT.

It would be clever: phase 1 of the book would have Demandred use decoys/proxy (the Murandians) to provoke a war against the Seanchan, and rely mostly on Shadowspawn, Trolloc Wars style. That would "train" the Seanchan in dealing with Shadowspawn, at their head someone who "fought" the Trolloc Wars (so to speak).

It would also have Rand with Perrin/Egwene/Logain involved with the Dreadlords, thus there to help train the badly outskilled but far more numerous WO/Windfinders/Aes Sedai/Asha'man, leaving them time to get better before the Shadow's channellers are lead by Demandred.

Then Taim is out of the picture and defeated, and Demandred gets all the Dreadlords and unimaginable numbers of Shadowspawn but Mat returns to inherit all the Light's combined forces. Big challenge again: Mat has tons of new and incredibly strong resources, but he no longer has memories to draw from in how to best use them and has to be creative and rely on his mental link to Rand - and new lieutenants in the likes of Logain, perhaps Cadsuane (after we've seen Adelorna perform...eek...it's about time the Green Ajah puts Cadsuane at its head...), while Demandred is fully in his comfort zone at last, with something closer to his WOS armies, but growing massively frustrated with Rand avoiding him.

Demandred's end could come at the very end. E.g.: Mat's trap for him might spring when Demandred predictably (for Rand) abandons his post when he realizes Rand has moved to the Pit of Doom and he realizes it's Moridin there who will get him, or failed. That would cover both for frustrating Demandred of his desire and for the fact Demandred is intrinsically loyal only to Demandred.

For Moridin it's more obvious: he has to die in such a way the DO can't or won't give him the "final death". That could involve, among a ton of options, preventing Moridin from dying until the Bore is no more... Nyaneve healing him so he can't follow Rand in Death would be priceless..



I agree.

I think people have placed too much emphasis on Demandred, even from early on in the series.

Demandred isn't that special. People focus entirely too much on the fact that he was similar to Lews Therin, and that he was part of this powerful inner circle. But who wasn't? Lanfear actually dated the Dragon and freed the Dark One, both Semirhage and Graendal were as accomplished as Aes Sedai could be and world famous. There's also no evidence to support the fact that Demandred was more a more accomplished Forsaken general than either Sammael or Be'lal, both who were also extremely prolific Aes Sedai. Look at how famous Aginor was.

Many of the Forsaken were just as prolific as Demandred, and arguably as skilled. I see no evidence that he was greater as a channeler than Ishamael, Graendal or Semirhage, and look how easily they were defeated. Looking back at the Forsaken, it an undoubted fact that they have all had 'soft' deaths without much glory, or worse, they carry on as shells of their former selves. I would have bet almost anything that we would see something fantastic from Semirhage, and yet it came down to a fireball and some threatening language.

We actually have seen Demandred in combat, and he was suppressed by relatively untrained channelers, so people can forget some hidden and uncanny talent with saidin or rare weaves. The same goes for all the Forsaken. If you take the other great male generals, you'll find one who was balefired by Moiraine and one who walked into Mashadar by mistake. Imagine what the fans of those Forsaken must have spewed. I see no reason why Demandred will avoid a similar fate, which is why I'm convinced it won't happen even remotely close to Rand.

It's likely some of the more adept Light side channelers like Logain and Cadsuane will identify the source of the Shadowspawn tactics in the LB, and will go directly for him, in effect decapitating a large portion of the Forsaken leadership. Egwene was right in telling Mesaana they completely overestimate how much they suffered in the AOL. Demandred has what, a decade of war experience? All of the current generals like Bashere far exceed him in experience and skill. The catch for Demandred though is that he is extremely intelligent (RJ said his IQ was 180 or something), has huge resources, is proficient with proxies, and has set up his offensive for several years making him the most productive of the Forsaken. Most of all he's adaptable (it took him a few years to become a high ranking Forsaken), and he's probably identified the strengths and weaknesses of almost every race and how to exploit it for his own gain. He's lucky he's an even match for Mat who has hundreds of years of war experience and even better, against the Shadow.

Demandred isn't the pinnacle of what an Aes Sedai could be in the AOL, and that doesn't even stem from his treachery. It starts because we now know conclusively that Lews Therin himself was no angel, and probably not at all as grand as we were led to believe. He was a lesser accomplished form of a flawed individual, despite all his strengths. There are third age characters with ten times the strength of character as Lews Therin or Demandred.
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[Mik's Warp] - Demandred is.....*click to find out* - 05/11/2012 01:06:42 PM 2750 Views
There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)... - 05/11/2012 02:10:07 PM 1306 Views
Nah.. forget that - 05/11/2012 08:29:53 PM 1151 Views
Re: Nah.. forget that - 05/11/2012 10:07:46 PM 1006 Views
Re: There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)... - 06/11/2012 12:40:54 PM 1194 Views
I'm not saying it's not a well-reasoned theory; it is. - 06/11/2012 06:02:36 PM 1207 Views
I say Roederan is a better choice simply because of where he is located - 06/11/2012 11:01:28 PM 1106 Views
Re: I say Roederan is a better choice simply because of where he is located - 07/11/2012 09:42:00 AM 1363 Views
I applaud your effort, but to be honest I just can't see it - 07/11/2012 04:48:17 PM 979 Views
Re: I applaud your effort, but to be honest I just can't see it - 07/11/2012 08:36:34 PM 1236 Views
There has been a lot of waste in WOT..... - 06/11/2012 06:26:56 PM 926 Views
LIKE! *NM* - 09/12/2012 02:37:49 PM 1036 Views
Whoops *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:27:06 PM 561 Views
Plausible, albeit antilclimactic *NM* - 05/11/2012 06:32:38 PM 613 Views
Unless Mat is Demandred, at this point it will be anticlimactic. *NM* - 06/11/2012 04:02:38 AM 571 Views
That would be EPIC *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:53:30 PM 577 Views
That would be EPIC *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:53:31 PM 573 Views
You've tried too hard... - 05/11/2012 07:53:41 PM 2818 Views
Will be so disappointed if the Shadow's greatest (non-crazy) leader is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 05/11/2012 08:57:59 PM 1148 Views
I doubt Mat will kill him personally but - 05/11/2012 09:24:48 PM 902 Views
I don't know - 06/11/2012 02:01:41 AM 912 Views
My prediction of how it plays out... - 06/11/2012 07:12:15 AM 1009 Views
I don't think that's likely - 06/11/2012 06:04:55 PM 969 Views
LOL ... it will be a saying in the next Age - 06/11/2012 10:36:04 PM 907 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 06/11/2012 11:21:21 PM 907 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 07/11/2012 08:14:28 PM 1035 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 07/11/2012 09:05:07 PM 1137 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 08/11/2012 05:52:16 PM 952 Views
It sounds like we're at the same stage of vision of the AOL - 08/11/2012 07:48:17 PM 907 Views
Statistics refute some of that... - 09/11/2012 07:35:59 AM 917 Views
We're not talking about the same things... - 09/11/2012 11:31:12 PM 900 Views
It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent. - 09/11/2012 11:43:26 PM 1095 Views
Re: It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent. - 10/11/2012 07:34:34 AM 1010 Views
You seriously believe that? - 10/11/2012 04:17:09 PM 941 Views
Mat has grown quiet a bit since those days - 06/11/2012 01:55:48 AM 1068 Views
You're putting the Evil on a pedestal. - 06/11/2012 03:12:38 AM 833 Views
No, just desperately trying to raise the stakes a bit... - 06/11/2012 07:00:59 AM 980 Views
That's essentially what I was saying - 06/11/2012 03:35:45 PM 1101 Views
hmmm - 06/11/2012 10:27:00 AM 1235 Views
... is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 06/11/2012 08:45:02 PM 1059 Views
Mat is essentially the man (men) who wrote the books Demandred studied - 06/11/2012 10:42:40 PM 889 Views
Exactly... - 06/11/2012 11:45:36 PM 1056 Views
... is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 06/11/2012 08:45:29 PM 1100 Views
I didn't try hard at all; Demandred found me... - 06/11/2012 03:31:41 PM 1068 Views
My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk - 06/11/2012 10:54:50 PM 1039 Views
Re: My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk - 07/11/2012 12:07:02 AM 1090 Views
Well, it instantly gives the Shadow access to attacking every coastal city... - 07/11/2012 10:32:23 AM 963 Views
Exactly! - 07/11/2012 10:54:14 AM 1512 Views
If he married Nynaeve and Moiraine he'd have his wives at Rand's side in the Pit too.... - 07/11/2012 03:28:38 PM 933 Views
I find that approach unnecessarily convoluted. Just hit them with 1 billion Trollocs and crush them. - 08/11/2012 07:00:36 AM 917 Views
Not likely he has that many... - 08/11/2012 03:00:32 PM 851 Views
May I ask some practical questions? - 08/11/2012 05:28:41 PM 855 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 08/11/2012 10:35:38 PM 993 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 12:09:15 AM 923 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 03:11:59 AM 930 Views
LOL ... Seems more than a little far fetched *NM* - 10/11/2012 06:17:34 AM 518 Views
Well you asked for an explanation - 13/11/2012 10:23:41 PM 843 Views
fair enough *NM* - 14/11/2012 01:31:52 AM 491 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 07:15:58 PM 972 Views
Exactly! - 11/11/2012 07:38:46 AM 974 Views
Good practical questions... - 09/11/2012 07:24:14 AM 971 Views
He doesn't need the SF for that - 09/11/2012 03:00:34 PM 751 Views
Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about - 09/11/2012 02:57:16 PM 804 Views
Re: Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about - 09/11/2012 09:03:14 PM 927 Views
I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind. - 09/11/2012 11:57:34 PM 896 Views
Re: I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind. - 10/11/2012 10:08:04 PM 2435 Views
I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage - 11/11/2012 07:45:19 AM 956 Views
Re: I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage - 12/11/2012 02:57:08 PM 973 Views
Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing - 12/11/2012 04:11:50 PM 1005 Views
Re: Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing - 12/11/2012 06:01:33 PM 1098 Views
Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain - 12/11/2012 06:51:24 PM 1123 Views
Re: Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain - 12/11/2012 09:30:57 PM 922 Views
Not to belabor the point - 12/11/2012 10:56:39 PM 873 Views
Re: Not to belabor the point - 13/11/2012 12:46:21 AM 833 Views
I think you are way off base on the economics - 13/11/2012 01:24:35 AM 801 Views
Re: I think you are way off base on the economics - 13/11/2012 03:48:40 PM 924 Views
no reason to *NM* - 14/11/2012 01:35:55 AM 509 Views
I don't see the problem... - 07/11/2012 10:52:49 AM 1643 Views
This is preposterous - 07/11/2012 04:15:11 PM 1345 Views
Who? - 06/11/2012 07:29:46 PM 872 Views
Paah, he's clearly on the Isle of Madmen to the south. - 10/11/2012 03:28:26 AM 1295 Views

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