I didn't try hard at all; Demandred found me... - Edit 2
Before modification by Mik at 06/11/2012 03:41:42 PM
I didn't try hard at all; Demandred found me...I just went looking for a group where no Forsaken was hiding. *shrugs*
I thought of the Sea Folk. Their position matched with the best hint we were given about Demandreds whereabouts (Sammael's thoughts). I then looked for the best place among them for a 'secure rule' and found the Master of the BLades (the "Asha'm'hael" ..LOL)
Not hard at all. Easy actually.
I don’t see anything that should harm my position/ theory; the same is true for Demandred
That doesn’t rule out Amel at all. First mention was in LoC, chapter 5 actually. That we didn’t have a name doesn’t mean anything. It was enough to know he was ‘Swordmaser to Zaida’. *shrugs*
The previous Mistress of the Ships and her Swordmaster / Master of the Blades was killed by a force that we know for a fact was influenced heavilly by the Shadow through both Ishamael and Semirhage. We know Semirhage was part of Demandreds alliance.
Getting current owner of coveted position killed; easy (and making mortal enemies of the Seanchan and Altarans as a bonus!)
Harine was brought to Tear instead of Illian by Verin, a know Darkfriend who we know recieved orders from Mesaana atleast twice, that coincidently is also part of Demandreds little alliance. Both the killing of the Mistress of the Ships and the detour for Harine –one of the Twelve to unanimously choose a new Mistress of the Ships- gave Demandred his coveted position opened up and the time needed to arrange for Zaida to be picked as the new Mistress.
Getting enough time to ensure Zaida will be picked over contenders; easypeasy. As I’ve already explained in the theory.
No, I don’t. RJ used those politics as a cover for keeping Demandred’s position hidden.
Sure, sure. But still.
Harine travelled on a ship of her Clan. To the Atha'an Miere, a ship is the most important member of their clan and crew.
Zaida left clan and ship behind. Harine stayed on her ship to await negatiations with the Coramoor. Zaida refused (and probably broke Atha'an Miere protocol) an invitation to stay in the Royal Palace and instead choose to stay in an Inn (!) for months!
Zaida’s behaviour is the total opposite of what can be expected of the Atha'an Miere, whereas Harine behaves as can be expected of the Atha'an Miere, given the circumstances.
For starters, it’s odd that two embassies were send in the first place. I don’t think I overlooked politics at all. I think you just overlooked the possibility of Forsaken meddling in affairs of the Sea Folk; a people with their own version of the prophesies and with a strict hierachy. Key-factors for easy meddling in affairs as we can see with both the Aiel & the Seanchan.
Are you kidding me? Back in TSR, we read of a Sea Folk ship (The Wavedancer) going toe to toe with a Seanchan ship when the Sea Folk vessel was attacked and the Sea Folk won that battle even though the Seanchan surprised the Sea Folk with the attack! The so called ‘Ever Victorious Army’ was beaten by the crew of the Sea Folk ship who defeated the Seanchan in hand to hand combat and the Windfinder who won the battle against the Damane, sinking the Seanchan ship! How’s that for ‘having no army?’
I agree that the Windfinders are an army in and by themselves. :-)
You overlook the influence of three Forsaken who have a hand in the positions and dealings of both the Sea Folk fleet and the Seanchan fleet. A good general like Demandred meddling in both (one direct, the other through Semi / Ishy), would esnure victory for the side that was decided by Demandred up front. That ‘upper hand’ you mention the Seanchan ‘gaining’, is because what happened was –rightfully called- the Sea Folk ‘Escape’. *shrugs*
You fail to mention that the only relatively fair battle (in numbers of different troop types involved) we can be sure was evenly matched between Atha'an Miere and Seanchan was won by the first where the latter drew first blood.
Thats all true, but NOT when ‘the blades are bare’. The Cargomaster / Swordmaster / Master of the Blades outranks the Shipmistress / Wavemistress / Mistress of the Ships then. You think ‘Swordmaster’ and ‘Master of the Blades’ are referrals to how good they manage to trade?
Demandreds ‘rule is secure’ because he (and the world) gathers for war. That’s RJ’s humor for you, right there. Graendal just doesn’t see it and she even ponders how she would ‘trade’ all her knowledge of the other Chosen to find out where Demandred is hiding. That, Dom, is priceless, right there.
What’s in a name, Dom? What you call ‘merchant guards’ kicked Ever Victurious Army buttocks in TSR. Fact.
Whatever you say Dom, the Sea Folk are ammased in ports that are hardly defended, because everyone –readers included- think the threat comes from elsewhere. The Sea Folk have channelers and thousands of men and women gathered. The Sea Folk, in those numbers and with channelers to boot pack a mighty punch.
And through their strict hierarchy and culture they will punch where the Master of the Blades points in times of war.
Sure he does! At the only times when it actually matters to Demandred; when there’s a war to be fought! Simple.
I hope you did read the part of the theory that explained how Sea Folk culture is based on ‘instant obedience’ and how they ‘stick strictly to their hierarchy’. I didn’t write that; RJ did. And as we could have read, all it took Asmodean was one overambitious wannabee clan chief and two tattoos to have a whole clan run rampage through several books. With a bit of manipulation and wrong interpretation of prophesy (wich we know the Sea Folk have for their Coramoor), the Sea Folk will leap to obey their Master of the Blades wishes. All Demandred has to do, is unsheathe his blade.
As we have already seen, tweaked or misinterpreted prophesy goes a long, long way…so as far as enemies go..I guess either Ishamael or Demandred are smart enough to influence events to their liking. At least for vital first few hours of when Demandred decides to play his ace. RAFO on the point and how big a ‘match’ they are to the Damane. Demandred doesn’t need the Sea Folk to win the Last Battle for him. He needs them to start battles where no one expects attack.
You’re wrong. Mat didn’t see the Swordmaster, nor Zaida. He saw –by seeing their parasols- that a Wavemistress and her Swordmaster had to be present in the ‘cluster of people’ and the ‘sea folk arrivals’. Mat never saw Amel. He saw that Amel had to be present by seeing an object that indicated his presence. The odd part is; we never get to see him again.
We only see Demandred in T’a’r 4 chapters later in the Royal Palace. Hint hint!
Amel fits. And yes, I figured it had to be Roedran too before I went looking for Demandred myself after that Timolan thread over @ D’mount.
Cheers,
Mik
I thought of the Sea Folk. Their position matched with the best hint we were given about Demandreds whereabouts (Sammael's thoughts). I then looked for the best place among them for a 'secure rule' and found the Master of the BLades (the "Asha'm'hael" ..LOL)
Not hard at all. Easy actually.
We have two sets of paramaters set by Jordan.
First by the mid to late series he answered a question about it that we could figure out who both Demandred and Mesaana were hidden as.
Fine by me. We could have figured it out during ACoS, I think. Maybe even with just the info from LoC.First by the mid to late series he answered a question about it that we could figure out who both Demandred and Mesaana were hidden as.
We know from the few clues about Danelle that he was telling the truth. We could get lucky, spot the clues and figure it out. It didn't rest on solid facts, but we could still suspect it was Danelle based on flimsy clues and turn out to be right.
The same must be true for Demandred.
The same must be true for Demandred.
I don’t see anything that should harm my position/ theory; the same is true for Demandred
That rules out Amel, who was never mentionned before KOD.
That doesn’t rule out Amel at all. First mention was in LoC, chapter 5 actually. That we didn’t have a name doesn’t mean anything. It was enough to know he was ‘Swordmaser to Zaida’. *shrugs*
And he rose to prominence following a series of events Demandred could not possibly control.
The previous Mistress of the Ships and her Swordmaster / Master of the Blades was killed by a force that we know for a fact was influenced heavilly by the Shadow through both Ishamael and Semirhage. We know Semirhage was part of Demandreds alliance.
Getting current owner of coveted position killed; easy (and making mortal enemies of the Seanchan and Altarans as a bonus!)
Harine was brought to Tear instead of Illian by Verin, a know Darkfriend who we know recieved orders from Mesaana atleast twice, that coincidently is also part of Demandreds little alliance. Both the killing of the Mistress of the Ships and the detour for Harine –one of the Twelve to unanimously choose a new Mistress of the Ships- gave Demandred his coveted position opened up and the time needed to arrange for Zaida to be picked as the new Mistress.
Getting enough time to ensure Zaida will be picked over contenders; easypeasy. As I’ve already explained in the theory.
A lot of your "suspicious" stuff about Zaida isn't suspicious at all, you just overlook politics.
No, I don’t. RJ used those politics as a cover for keeping Demandred’s position hidden.
Had Mat seen Harine, she would have looked as acting just as weirdly as he found Zaida to be acting strangely. It's not any deep mystery: women of Zaida and Harine's rank are almost never seen. They're the next thing to the Mistress of Ships. It was unique that they lead embassies on the land, and the reason for this exceptional event was plain and simple, they were the embassies to the Coramoor...
Sure, sure. But still.
Harine travelled on a ship of her Clan. To the Atha'an Miere, a ship is the most important member of their clan and crew.
Zaida left clan and ship behind. Harine stayed on her ship to await negatiations with the Coramoor. Zaida refused (and probably broke Atha'an Miere protocol) an invitation to stay in the Royal Palace and instead choose to stay in an Inn (!) for months!
Zaida’s behaviour is the total opposite of what can be expected of the Atha'an Miere, whereas Harine behaves as can be expected of the Atha'an Miere, given the circumstances.
You overlooked the political contest between Zaida and Harine. Both had to be the one succeeding at making a Bargain with Rand. Harine won, but her Bargain was very onerous and Zaida got the advantage of learning earlier about the death of the MoS and to play all this against Harine. It's as simple as that.
For starters, it’s odd that two embassies were send in the first place. I don’t think I overlooked politics at all. I think you just overlooked the possibility of Forsaken meddling in affairs of the Sea Folk; a people with their own version of the prophesies and with a strict hierachy. Key-factors for easy meddling in affairs as we can see with both the Aiel & the Seanchan.
The Sea Folk have no real army.
Are you kidding me? Back in TSR, we read of a Sea Folk ship (The Wavedancer) going toe to toe with a Seanchan ship when the Sea Folk vessel was attacked and the Sea Folk won that battle even though the Seanchan surprised the Sea Folk with the attack! The so called ‘Ever Victorious Army’ was beaten by the crew of the Sea Folk ship who defeated the Seanchan in hand to hand combat and the Windfinder who won the battle against the Damane, sinking the Seanchan ship! How’s that for ‘having no army?’
They never needed one, their islands are almost unreachable except for their own ships, and if attacked at sea or at home, they can fall back on Windfinders and leave no survivors to tell the tale...
I agree that the Windfinders are an army in and by themselves. :-)
When organized military faced them, they were fairly easily defeated. They lost an island to the Seanchan, and at Ebou Dar they did damage by surprise but the damane got the upper hand pretty fast.
You overlook the influence of three Forsaken who have a hand in the positions and dealings of both the Sea Folk fleet and the Seanchan fleet. A good general like Demandred meddling in both (one direct, the other through Semi / Ishy), would esnure victory for the side that was decided by Demandred up front. That ‘upper hand’ you mention the Seanchan ‘gaining’, is because what happened was –rightfully called- the Sea Folk ‘Escape’. *shrugs*
You fail to mention that the only relatively fair battle (in numbers of different troop types involved) we can be sure was evenly matched between Atha'an Miere and Seanchan was won by the first where the latter drew first blood.
The husband of a captain (by whatever name) is in charge of Trade and protecting the goods and the traders.
Thats all true, but NOT when ‘the blades are bare’. The Cargomaster / Swordmaster / Master of the Blades outranks the Shipmistress / Wavemistress / Mistress of the Ships then. You think ‘Swordmaster’ and ‘Master of the Blades’ are referrals to how good they manage to trade?
Demandreds ‘rule is secure’ because he (and the world) gathers for war. That’s RJ’s humor for you, right there. Graendal just doesn’t see it and she even ponders how she would ‘trade’ all her knowledge of the other Chosen to find out where Demandred is hiding. That, Dom, is priceless, right there.
What you call "an army" is more akin to merchant's guards.
What’s in a name, Dom? What you call ‘merchant guards’ kicked Ever Victurious Army buttocks in TSR. Fact.
Whatever you say Dom, the Sea Folk are ammased in ports that are hardly defended, because everyone –readers included- think the threat comes from elsewhere. The Sea Folk have channelers and thousands of men and women gathered. The Sea Folk, in those numbers and with channelers to boot pack a mighty punch.
And through their strict hierarchy and culture they will punch where the Master of the Blades points in times of war.
He has not authority whatsoever over the Windfinders, who are strictly under the female hierarchy.
Sure he does! At the only times when it actually matters to Demandred; when there’s a war to be fought! Simple.
It's not enough for Demandred to "have an army". He needs a way to either turn it against the Light (fat chance of that with the likes of SF, Aiel etc.) or use them in a proxy war.
I hope you did read the part of the theory that explained how Sea Folk culture is based on ‘instant obedience’ and how they ‘stick strictly to their hierarchy’. I didn’t write that; RJ did. And as we could have read, all it took Asmodean was one overambitious wannabee clan chief and two tattoos to have a whole clan run rampage through several books. With a bit of manipulation and wrong interpretation of prophesy (wich we know the Sea Folk have for their Coramoor), the Sea Folk will leap to obey their Master of the Blades wishes. All Demandred has to do, is unsheathe his blade.
Aside from the Seanchan, the Sea Folk have no enemies, and they're proven not to be any match to the damane, so what would be the point?
As we have already seen, tweaked or misinterpreted prophesy goes a long, long way…so as far as enemies go..I guess either Ishamael or Demandred are smart enough to influence events to their liking. At least for vital first few hours of when Demandred decides to play his ace. RAFO on the point and how big a ‘match’ they are to the Damane. Demandred doesn’t need the Sea Folk to win the Last Battle for him. He needs them to start battles where no one expects attack.
The other point is that Amel, if not by name, has showed up on screen in that scene where Mat saw him. Jordan said we never saw Demandred in disguise on screen (that was valid up to KOD). Brandon confirmed we haven't seen him in TGS/TOM either.
You’re wrong. Mat didn’t see the Swordmaster, nor Zaida. He saw –by seeing their parasols- that a Wavemistress and her Swordmaster had to be present in the ‘cluster of people’ and the ‘sea folk arrivals’. Mat never saw Amel. He saw that Amel had to be present by seeing an object that indicated his presence. The odd part is; we never get to see him again.
We only see Demandred in T’a’r 4 chapters later in the Royal Palace. Hint hint!
There are few, very few characters fitting the criteria, and the only one who makes sense among them is Roedran.
Amel fits. And yes, I figured it had to be Roedran too before I went looking for Demandred myself after that Timolan thread over @ D’mount.
I've fought against the idea for years but have given up.
You gave up too soon, I’d say. The clues are slightly better than those for Danelle, but they are there. Toward ACOS (or POD?), reports that Roedran had changed and was becoming clever showed up. He's developped an interest for old war treatises (that's Demandred learning all he can about third age tactics...).
No need to re-hash Roedran thoeries. Like I said; he’s still a possibility. And ever since I started looking the other way around for Demandred by searching for groups without obvious Forsaken meddling and thought ‘Why is there no Forsaken among the Sea Folk?’ now so is Amel I think. Cheers,
Mik