stop getting all indignant ... I'm really not trying to be nasty to you - Edit 1
Before modification by darius_sedai at 04/11/2012 04:20:56 PM
which consistently leads you to miss that there are "current" strength quotes and "potential" strength comments. Certainly there are quotes that make Elayne seem much weaker than Nynaeve, but when you look at the timeline and related quotes about her current level you can clearly see how skewed this viewpoint is.
You have an excellent grasp of the broad series, but lacking the ability to quote the series correctly and missing the concept that there are 2 years of chronology that are weighted heavily toward the first 5 books you consistently bring in quotes from TSR or TFoH that speak of a character's CURRENT strength and seem to think that because there was 10 years in real world time that there was a long time between the timelines of the books. Nynaeve for instance, faced Moghedien before she reached her full potential. However, she had been actively Channeling (block or no) for well over a year at that point in the series ... given that she was already as strong as Siuan/Moiraine in EoTW without ever Channeling with her own knowledge and then being Forced for a year it follows that she would have gained in the ballpark of 85-90% of her maximum potential in the year+ related to the Tower.
We hear from Moiraine in New Spring that she gained strength at a pretty steady pace for 6 years, and was clearly well more than 2/3 of her Potential when she gained the Shawl (based on various women she thinks should defer to her), but that it would take several more years for her to attain her full strength. It seems obvious that women gain the greater part of their strength while training and being Forced to at least a tiny degree ... meaning active training is inherently Forcing compared to no training at all ... Nynaeve slowly gained strength as a Wilder for about 10 years prior to the series, then she started getting active training, which was far more Forceful than the typical Accepted as she had skipped her Novice training and the AS were all stunned by her potential. She is further Forced by her time fighting the Seanchan, and thus had gained the bulk of her strength by the time she faced Moghedien. Now in the few months between her Moghedien fight and meeting Alivia she probably gained a little more strength, but she has not been Forced abnormally in this time and her strength attainment would have slowed considerably. Then she heads to the Cleansing and in all likelihood was pushed to her full potential.
Egwene's story isn't much different, she was about normal for a Novice (in terms of how strong she was) when she left the Tower with Liandrin. Then was Forced in the extreme by the Seanchan and was pushed to Moiraine's strength by the end of TDR. As we see in TSR she is slightly stronger than Moiraine. A few months later she is still being Forced by the much more progressive training methods of the WO and competing with Aviendha and has gained the bulk of her strength, but once she hits the AS camp she would have slowed her strength attainment significantly. Once captured and in the Tower she is obviously Forced for a couple of months despite the forkroot. By TGS/ToM she is likely at full potential.
Elayne, however, does not have such Forcing. She is treated much more conservatively as DH in her early stages in the Tower, and Nynaeve does what she can to hold her back while on Toman Head. By the beginning of TSR Elayne is nowhere close to Egwene in strength, as evidenced by the fact that at the end of TSR Elayne is still much weaker than Moiraine (she is surprised that she can lift a single woman with Air, while Moiraine can lift 3x her body weight). Elayne's primary strength attainment takes place on the road from Tanchico to Salidar. By the time she gets there in TFoH she is around Moiraine level (she notes that she can lift a cauldron that "most" full Sisters could not have moved) ... she is likely a little weaker than Moiraine at this stage. By the time she leaves Ebou Dar she is clearly stronger than any AS except for Cadsuane and she and Aviendha are about equal as they each participate in the BoTW circle. It's very possible that she has stronger potential than Tamela and Viendre who she comments on while well shy of her own full potential. No way to know on that one. Once she is pregnant her strength attainment would be more akin to what Nynaeve experienced while blocked, but she is also not being Forced at this point so she is not gaining strength rapidly and is likely no more than 75% of her potential. Which squares with the general level you and Sidious place her at (roughly 60), but she has a long way to grow still as we see in ToM when she is observing Egwene's Wards and is clearly impressed with the Skill if nothing else.
Rand, however, is a special case as he seems to be as strong as the Forsaken from nearly the very beginning. I think he's reverted back to this uncanny strength since his epiphany on DM ... he is now nearly limitless it seems and may well have been back in tEoTW before Ishamael began corrupting him. Rand seems to have gained only marginal amounts of strength since then as he faced and defeated Ishamael, Be'lal, Asmodean, Rahvin and Sammael. He was even Forced by Asmodean to a degree but never seems to be much less than maximum channeling strength. I think this is due to the corruption attempts Ishamael laid out. Otherwise The Dragon Reborn may well have been limitless throughout the series and thus would have been able to destroy the Forsaken with ease.
Now, why is this general timeline important? Because we have to factor in the current level of strength of these women when certain events take place. Naturally Elayne thinks how strong Rand is in the TSR, she and Egwene combined are not even half of her own full potential! She would have expected Rand's strength to be like her's and be at less than full potential. She is quickly disabused of this when he turns out to be as Strong as a Forsaken level Channeler already. Remember Elayne and Egwene were not witness to most of his moments facing Forsaken and would have no way of knowing how strong he really is ... only the battle in the sky v. Ishamael which they all thought was the DO/LB. Also consider that Elayne at something like 60% of her potential notes that with a weak angreal she can handle 2x Nynaeve's maximum (who is probably like 90% of potential). And with a very weak angreal while no more than 75% of her potential and not drawing on it fully she can fool the BA prisoners into thinking she is as powerful as one of the Forsaken.
You consistently talk as though Elayne and Aviendha are always at full potential when they are nowhere close to it. You are far too simplistic in your approach in figuring out strength. I have pieced together my strength estimates based on looking at how women grow over time, the amount of forcing they receive, direct quotes, author quotes and OP feats they can perform. Thus I am confident in my estimates. You and Sidious start out with how strong you think the Forsaken are and back your way into everyone else's strength with no regard to how close they are to full potential, or the authors own commentary on strength.
You have an excellent grasp of the broad series, but lacking the ability to quote the series correctly and missing the concept that there are 2 years of chronology that are weighted heavily toward the first 5 books you consistently bring in quotes from TSR or TFoH that speak of a character's CURRENT strength and seem to think that because there was 10 years in real world time that there was a long time between the timelines of the books. Nynaeve for instance, faced Moghedien before she reached her full potential. However, she had been actively Channeling (block or no) for well over a year at that point in the series ... given that she was already as strong as Siuan/Moiraine in EoTW without ever Channeling with her own knowledge and then being Forced for a year it follows that she would have gained in the ballpark of 85-90% of her maximum potential in the year+ related to the Tower.
We hear from Moiraine in New Spring that she gained strength at a pretty steady pace for 6 years, and was clearly well more than 2/3 of her Potential when she gained the Shawl (based on various women she thinks should defer to her), but that it would take several more years for her to attain her full strength. It seems obvious that women gain the greater part of their strength while training and being Forced to at least a tiny degree ... meaning active training is inherently Forcing compared to no training at all ... Nynaeve slowly gained strength as a Wilder for about 10 years prior to the series, then she started getting active training, which was far more Forceful than the typical Accepted as she had skipped her Novice training and the AS were all stunned by her potential. She is further Forced by her time fighting the Seanchan, and thus had gained the bulk of her strength by the time she faced Moghedien. Now in the few months between her Moghedien fight and meeting Alivia she probably gained a little more strength, but she has not been Forced abnormally in this time and her strength attainment would have slowed considerably. Then she heads to the Cleansing and in all likelihood was pushed to her full potential.
Egwene's story isn't much different, she was about normal for a Novice (in terms of how strong she was) when she left the Tower with Liandrin. Then was Forced in the extreme by the Seanchan and was pushed to Moiraine's strength by the end of TDR. As we see in TSR she is slightly stronger than Moiraine. A few months later she is still being Forced by the much more progressive training methods of the WO and competing with Aviendha and has gained the bulk of her strength, but once she hits the AS camp she would have slowed her strength attainment significantly. Once captured and in the Tower she is obviously Forced for a couple of months despite the forkroot. By TGS/ToM she is likely at full potential.
Elayne, however, does not have such Forcing. She is treated much more conservatively as DH in her early stages in the Tower, and Nynaeve does what she can to hold her back while on Toman Head. By the beginning of TSR Elayne is nowhere close to Egwene in strength, as evidenced by the fact that at the end of TSR Elayne is still much weaker than Moiraine (she is surprised that she can lift a single woman with Air, while Moiraine can lift 3x her body weight). Elayne's primary strength attainment takes place on the road from Tanchico to Salidar. By the time she gets there in TFoH she is around Moiraine level (she notes that she can lift a cauldron that "most" full Sisters could not have moved) ... she is likely a little weaker than Moiraine at this stage. By the time she leaves Ebou Dar she is clearly stronger than any AS except for Cadsuane and she and Aviendha are about equal as they each participate in the BoTW circle. It's very possible that she has stronger potential than Tamela and Viendre who she comments on while well shy of her own full potential. No way to know on that one. Once she is pregnant her strength attainment would be more akin to what Nynaeve experienced while blocked, but she is also not being Forced at this point so she is not gaining strength rapidly and is likely no more than 75% of her potential. Which squares with the general level you and Sidious place her at (roughly 60), but she has a long way to grow still as we see in ToM when she is observing Egwene's Wards and is clearly impressed with the Skill if nothing else.
Rand, however, is a special case as he seems to be as strong as the Forsaken from nearly the very beginning. I think he's reverted back to this uncanny strength since his epiphany on DM ... he is now nearly limitless it seems and may well have been back in tEoTW before Ishamael began corrupting him. Rand seems to have gained only marginal amounts of strength since then as he faced and defeated Ishamael, Be'lal, Asmodean, Rahvin and Sammael. He was even Forced by Asmodean to a degree but never seems to be much less than maximum channeling strength. I think this is due to the corruption attempts Ishamael laid out. Otherwise The Dragon Reborn may well have been limitless throughout the series and thus would have been able to destroy the Forsaken with ease.
Now, why is this general timeline important? Because we have to factor in the current level of strength of these women when certain events take place. Naturally Elayne thinks how strong Rand is in the TSR, she and Egwene combined are not even half of her own full potential! She would have expected Rand's strength to be like her's and be at less than full potential. She is quickly disabused of this when he turns out to be as Strong as a Forsaken level Channeler already. Remember Elayne and Egwene were not witness to most of his moments facing Forsaken and would have no way of knowing how strong he really is ... only the battle in the sky v. Ishamael which they all thought was the DO/LB. Also consider that Elayne at something like 60% of her potential notes that with a weak angreal she can handle 2x Nynaeve's maximum (who is probably like 90% of potential). And with a very weak angreal while no more than 75% of her potential and not drawing on it fully she can fool the BA prisoners into thinking she is as powerful as one of the Forsaken.
You consistently talk as though Elayne and Aviendha are always at full potential when they are nowhere close to it. You are far too simplistic in your approach in figuring out strength. I have pieced together my strength estimates based on looking at how women grow over time, the amount of forcing they receive, direct quotes, author quotes and OP feats they can perform. Thus I am confident in my estimates. You and Sidious start out with how strong you think the Forsaken are and back your way into everyone else's strength with no regard to how close they are to full potential, or the authors own commentary on strength.
Maybe you should stop debating in this thread now. You've threatened to do it since the beginning. For some reason you've started with personal insults and silly jibes. Telling people that they don't know the series, don't know what a timeline is, have fantasies about characters - it's all a sign of very poor debating technique, and pretty bad manners too.
You have contempt for the way in which I and Shannow see things (which is not the same btw), but your own post above this has figures that you have thumbsucked to make your own system work. It's all very hypocritical.
I'm pointing out that you each revise the text to suit your POV because you started out with a theory that the Forsaken must be a certain level of strength and have gone about finding quotes that support your supposition. What I've been trying to tell you for years is that your strength notions are inherently skewed because you are trying to prove something that cannot be proven. You need to look at the entire body of quotes, the timeline, what the author stated and feats a channeler can perform and then plot them accordingly. Linda did a beautiful job of plotting channelers by their strength on a 21-level list by following this basic approach. I don't agree with her levels as I've said that she has the Forsaken occupying too many levels to be realistic to me, but for the most part I think she's nailed the general strength list.
For the record I am not responding to parts of your posts deliberately because we've hashed through them 50 times. Which is what I am referring too when I say I'm not going to debate things we've gone in circles about.
I'll leave you with the thought that I find your methodology to be the problem, thus your results are off. You are like a detective who has decided someone is guilty of crime and hunts down only the evidence which will prove it, despite reams of evidence pointing in another direction.