I've been operating off of the scale I described for years
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 02/11/2012 11:25:27 PM
You can't seem to grasp the fact that a bell curve distribution does not have to be linear to work.
What Dreadlord describes is not far from how I see this to be honest, I don't really agree with Linda's use of levels as I think the Forsaken are on too many levels, but if you look at what he has done it will roughly follow a bell curve. Rejigger some of the use of levels and we are very close in our thoughts.
Another point you can't seem to grasp is that a bell curve is not saying Lanfear is 100% stronger than Morgase. There are no power volumes assigned to the scale. Stating Moiraine is above the Mean is not the same as saying Moiraine is more than 50% as strong as Lanfear. You continue to confuse the issue by not understanding that Lanfear can be 500x as strong as Morgase and still represent "100" on our imaginary scale.
And you continue to ignore the fact that you want to have a Mean that has 6 SD above it but cannot support 6 below it ... Which is not possible.
I'd rather argue this with you all day than read your creative quoting of the text, which almost never supports your strength theories. You have no grasp on the chronology of the books and consistently quote things out of context or mix when events happen (sometimes by months) to support your thoughts.
What Dreadlord describes is not far from how I see this to be honest, I don't really agree with Linda's use of levels as I think the Forsaken are on too many levels, but if you look at what he has done it will roughly follow a bell curve. Rejigger some of the use of levels and we are very close in our thoughts.
Another point you can't seem to grasp is that a bell curve is not saying Lanfear is 100% stronger than Morgase. There are no power volumes assigned to the scale. Stating Moiraine is above the Mean is not the same as saying Moiraine is more than 50% as strong as Lanfear. You continue to confuse the issue by not understanding that Lanfear can be 500x as strong as Morgase and still represent "100" on our imaginary scale.
And you continue to ignore the fact that you want to have a Mean that has 6 SD above it but cannot support 6 below it ... Which is not possible.
I'd rather argue this with you all day than read your creative quoting of the text, which almost never supports your strength theories. You have no grasp on the chronology of the books and consistently quote things out of context or mix when events happen (sometimes by months) to support your thoughts.
What it does, is eradicate all attempts of the likes of Fionwe to use the Bell Curve to limit the strength of a 21 level channeler compared to that of a level 10.
It means that the Mean does not have to lie at level 10 out of 21. Instead, it will lie closer to level 15.
I have never been against an exponential type of scale. In fact, it is one of the many theories I have suggested over the years.
My sole point with the Bell Curve calculations was to resist the attempts of some - and you know you have been one of them in recent times - to try and use a linear Bell Curve argument to impose your views of channeler strength on others.
What I have done in the posts above is to clearly disprove a linear Bell Curve distribution of channeler strength. It is mathematically impossible, given the information provided by the author himself.
If you will pause for one moment and agree with me on that, then we can move forward constructively.
Your ally Fionwe has been vocal in claiming that Lanfear can only be twice as strong as the average channeler. With the linear curve refuted, that argument no longer holds any water.
An exponential type of strength increase across the 21 levels means all options are back on the table, and the stupid idea that Lanfear is only twice as strong as the average woman can be thrown in the trash for good.
If that is all we have achieved today, that is still a massive step forward.
Do not put words in my mouth please. I have consistently said I believe Lanfear is about 2x Moiraine, but I do not believe her to be "average" in any way. I think the Mean on the 21 level list is in fact around level 11, where, on my list, you will find women like Adeleas and Vandene. I do not follow Linda's assignments of levels. To me, Moiraine falls on 15, Cadsuane 18, Egwene 19 and the Forsaken at 20 and 21. Conversely, Daigian is at 9 and Sorilea 5 and Morgase 1 ... I do believe there is a relationship between the levels and volume of saidar which means Egwene, while 2 only levels below Lanfear will be only about 80% of her strength.
IMO the Bell Curve distribution is on the strength levels ... Fionwe seems to believe otherwise, and he has made some very compelling arguments over the years as RJ did not specify that, he just said strength. I reserve the right to be swayed in toward his arguments before I'd believe what you claim as his general notions of strength more closely align with mine.
Which leads me to my biggest argument with you and Sidious. The spread you put between the Forsaken and everyone else. I do not believe they are that much more powerful than the Strongest AS like Moiraine, who is pretty rare in overall Strength. Lanfear at 3x Moiraine may as well be a god in WoT world and there is no way the Cleansing happens the way it does if the Forsaken are that much stronger than those they faced coupled with the ocean of knowledge they have in comparison. Odds are most of the Forsaken were over matched in Strength by the circles they faced, but like Cyndane, superior training made all the difference. You'll note the only real fear any of them had was of the Circle controlling Callandor, which may well be the only thing that kept many of the AS circles alive.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Addressing problems with the Bell Curve
31/10/2012 11:30:42 AM
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Who said RJ created a 100 point scale? I always assumed we did to make this easier to follow
31/10/2012 02:22:51 PM
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One more point here
31/10/2012 03:02:34 PM
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I've think I've finally done it. I've solved the entire Curve. Daigian is the key...
01/11/2012 09:20:57 AM
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Did some playing with your numbers to make this work better
01/11/2012 02:13:00 PM
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The Mean and SD are set by Daigian's position. Your options are therefore not possible...
02/11/2012 07:49:24 AM
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Yet you have many more SD between the Mean and Lanfear than you do Morgase and the Mean
02/11/2012 02:39:51 PM
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I absolutely agree. The lower side of the curve MUST be intersected by zero after 1 SD...
02/11/2012 03:03:52 PM
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I am not convinced Moiraine is the Mean. Merely 50% of Lanfear
02/11/2012 04:23:57 PM
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But on a Bell Curve the Mean IS 50% of Lanfear. You've just disproven your own contention.
02/11/2012 04:40:31 PM
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OMG no it is NOT!
02/11/2012 05:16:36 PM
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I agree with that. But please honestly look at the math I presented. It disproves the Bell Curve.
02/11/2012 05:24:41 PM
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It doesn't matter that you think the BC is disproved.
02/11/2012 06:07:19 PM
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Confusing post...
02/11/2012 06:30:40 PM
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If you choose to ignore the author go right ahead. I just think you are wrong
02/11/2012 09:05:14 PM
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A non-linear 21 point scale is fine...
02/11/2012 11:02:48 PM
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I've been operating off of the scale I described for years
02/11/2012 11:25:27 PM
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Re: It doesn't matter that you think the BC is disproved.
02/11/2012 07:11:57 PM
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I think the number is about 10
03/11/2012 08:42:08 AM
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Nope
03/11/2012 04:14:45 PM
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Re: Nope
03/11/2012 04:39:07 PM
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Verin and Graendal each have angreal of unkown strength
03/11/2012 06:15:49 PM
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Re: Addressing problems with the Bell Curve
01/11/2012 06:23:07 PM
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Re: Addressing problems with the Bell Curve
01/11/2012 09:48:04 PM
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I'll have to disagree with much of this
03/11/2012 07:46:31 AM
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Why do you always think Strength is the point
03/11/2012 04:35:26 PM
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I don't - I merely appreciate it as a factor
03/11/2012 04:48:24 PM
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0 Evidence? Cyndane v. Alivia is plenty of evidence EDIT with exact quote
03/11/2012 06:17:39 PM
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One other thing you have forgotten about
03/11/2012 10:13:09 PM
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Your agenda blinds you to logic yet again...As I'll simply demonstrate with your example here...
03/11/2012 11:08:13 PM
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Nope, the only experience she has in reality is against Rand
03/11/2012 11:09:54 PM
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Nonsense.
03/11/2012 11:11:05 PM
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Believe as you will
03/11/2012 11:26:50 PM
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That's a classic.
04/11/2012 12:06:13 AM
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You misquote on a regular basis and have no grasp of the timeline in the series
04/11/2012 01:36:37 AM
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Hmm...
04/11/2012 07:08:04 AM
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stop getting all indignant ... I'm really not trying to be nasty to you
04/11/2012 04:20:06 PM
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Reply to your EDIT: I think YOU have a totally warped perspective, based on what you wish for.
03/11/2012 11:16:29 PM
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Funny that's exactly how I see your perspective
03/11/2012 11:25:52 PM
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I don't need to interpret the following in any way other than the obvious to get the picture...
04/11/2012 12:17:53 AM
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as usual you miss that there is a timeline and strength growth throughout the series *NM*
04/11/2012 01:47:41 AM
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