I think Linda is correct in this particular instance
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 19/10/2012 02:14:23 AM
Siuan's commentary on ages for Sitters coupled with the various hierarchy things we've seen tends to make me think she is correct. Given all the rules in the Hall we've seen that have to do with Sitter Age I tend to buy into certain elements being spot on for Ajah Head selection as well as Amyrlin selection.
Certainly every woman we've seen (and know the relative strength of) who is a Sitter or Ajah Head or other high level AS has been either VERY strong (by AS standards) in the Power, or very experienced and in most cases BOTH. The Salidar Six are an example of this ... they are almost certainly among the strongest women from each Ajah, strongest of any Ajah in all likelihood. Then take a look at the normal age Sitters in the rebel Hall ... Romanda and Lelaine are both older and very Powerful and end up as the major faction leaders. It seems natural that the hierarchy would have an effect on such things. Strength is the #1 criteria followed by training time and Age in every case ... in the Hall only length of time as a Sitter trumps that ... but realistically even Sitters defer to other Sitters with more strength, as we saw with the BA Hunters, note that Saerin is the Strongest (or at least equal to), the oldest, and has served the longest time in the Hall. Seems obvious that the Ajah each end up selecting the most experienced Sister who has sufficient Strength to not get pushed aside for such roles. Picking an Ajah Head doesn't seem much different ... why would the Blue select Cabriana as AH when they know that she has spent decades deferring to pretty much every other Blue sister? And why would they choose Siuan or Moiraine when they have women with both centuries of experience and very high strength like Anaiya or Lelaine? No way Cabriana ever gets the Ajah Head job. Siuan or Moiraine on the other hand would have just needed time to prove capability. Unless something drastic like the rebellion happens.
I suspect Myrelle was chosen Green Ajah Head for the rebels (something Elayne was SHOCKED by) for the same reasons the too young Sitters were chosen ... give her some experience prior to the actuality happening. As one of the Strongest Greens she would have been on the short list in the natural course of events. But probably not a viable contender for the role for at least another 100-150 years.
Imagine you are AS and have to vote for a new Sitter for your Ajah. Knowing that a weaker Sister would not get deference from other Sitters who would you appoint if you had to pick a Sitter ... 145 year old Sister Talene, who is Strong, or a Sister who is 215 years old but as weak as Hattori? This is about Politics, not 100% about ability, a weak Sitter would have a lot of issues commanding the respect of other Sitters and would end up losing ground for the Ajah. It's all about who will be able to sway Sitters from other Ajah to her way of thinking more easily. Same can be said for Ajah Heads. The Heads we've seen and know the relative Strength of are all very high in the hierarchy. Galina, Eadyth, Romanda and in all probability Anaiya and/or Lelaine all stood very close to the top of AS Strength. With only Galina being young, and her position was almost certainly attended due to BA maneuvering.
In real world terms, who do you pick for the team captain? The new guy with potential but has only been playing for 5 years, or the guy who has 10 championship rings and has been playing for 20 years? Sure you don't pick the veteran if he has no leadership skills, but if he does he's the natural selection.
AS are creatures of habit and rules and control. We only see them vary from their traditions under extreme circumstances. Siuan is chosen as Amyrlin because there had been a succession of short term Amyrlins and the Tower was reeling from the Troubles and untimely deaths of senior Sisters. She naturally appointed other young women as part of her immediate circle, but since both are extremely Stong for AS it is easy to let pass ... seems natural for her to select Sheriam and Leane since they were among her closest friends from Novice/Accepted days. Egwene, as we all know was chosen because they thought to set up a puppet. Yet they chose someone they thought could eventually (due to her Strength) become a true Amyrlin, Siuan played on this deliberately when she chose Egwene. They would not have selected a weak woman ... they had plenty to choose from in Salidar.
Elaida was a creation of the BA and when she was forced into a situation to replace Silviana she needed to keep the Red on her side, find someone she felt she could trust (i.e. a contemporary) and probably had some level of BA influence on that selection as well. If I were to guess at Silviana and Tianna's ages I'd assume they were probably younger than what a Sitter would be, but experienced enough to have held other administrative roles. MoN seems to be the type of role you could put a woman with potential if you needed to ... since they don't actually participate in Tower policy you are safe if you end up with some one like Tianna who gets overwhelmed.
Certainly every woman we've seen (and know the relative strength of) who is a Sitter or Ajah Head or other high level AS has been either VERY strong (by AS standards) in the Power, or very experienced and in most cases BOTH. The Salidar Six are an example of this ... they are almost certainly among the strongest women from each Ajah, strongest of any Ajah in all likelihood. Then take a look at the normal age Sitters in the rebel Hall ... Romanda and Lelaine are both older and very Powerful and end up as the major faction leaders. It seems natural that the hierarchy would have an effect on such things. Strength is the #1 criteria followed by training time and Age in every case ... in the Hall only length of time as a Sitter trumps that ... but realistically even Sitters defer to other Sitters with more strength, as we saw with the BA Hunters, note that Saerin is the Strongest (or at least equal to), the oldest, and has served the longest time in the Hall. Seems obvious that the Ajah each end up selecting the most experienced Sister who has sufficient Strength to not get pushed aside for such roles. Picking an Ajah Head doesn't seem much different ... why would the Blue select Cabriana as AH when they know that she has spent decades deferring to pretty much every other Blue sister? And why would they choose Siuan or Moiraine when they have women with both centuries of experience and very high strength like Anaiya or Lelaine? No way Cabriana ever gets the Ajah Head job. Siuan or Moiraine on the other hand would have just needed time to prove capability. Unless something drastic like the rebellion happens.
I suspect Myrelle was chosen Green Ajah Head for the rebels (something Elayne was SHOCKED by) for the same reasons the too young Sitters were chosen ... give her some experience prior to the actuality happening. As one of the Strongest Greens she would have been on the short list in the natural course of events. But probably not a viable contender for the role for at least another 100-150 years.
Imagine you are AS and have to vote for a new Sitter for your Ajah. Knowing that a weaker Sister would not get deference from other Sitters who would you appoint if you had to pick a Sitter ... 145 year old Sister Talene, who is Strong, or a Sister who is 215 years old but as weak as Hattori? This is about Politics, not 100% about ability, a weak Sitter would have a lot of issues commanding the respect of other Sitters and would end up losing ground for the Ajah. It's all about who will be able to sway Sitters from other Ajah to her way of thinking more easily. Same can be said for Ajah Heads. The Heads we've seen and know the relative Strength of are all very high in the hierarchy. Galina, Eadyth, Romanda and in all probability Anaiya and/or Lelaine all stood very close to the top of AS Strength. With only Galina being young, and her position was almost certainly attended due to BA maneuvering.
In real world terms, who do you pick for the team captain? The new guy with potential but has only been playing for 5 years, or the guy who has 10 championship rings and has been playing for 20 years? Sure you don't pick the veteran if he has no leadership skills, but if he does he's the natural selection.
AS are creatures of habit and rules and control. We only see them vary from their traditions under extreme circumstances. Siuan is chosen as Amyrlin because there had been a succession of short term Amyrlins and the Tower was reeling from the Troubles and untimely deaths of senior Sisters. She naturally appointed other young women as part of her immediate circle, but since both are extremely Stong for AS it is easy to let pass ... seems natural for her to select Sheriam and Leane since they were among her closest friends from Novice/Accepted days. Egwene, as we all know was chosen because they thought to set up a puppet. Yet they chose someone they thought could eventually (due to her Strength) become a true Amyrlin, Siuan played on this deliberately when she chose Egwene. They would not have selected a weak woman ... they had plenty to choose from in Salidar.
Elaida was a creation of the BA and when she was forced into a situation to replace Silviana she needed to keep the Red on her side, find someone she felt she could trust (i.e. a contemporary) and probably had some level of BA influence on that selection as well. If I were to guess at Silviana and Tianna's ages I'd assume they were probably younger than what a Sitter would be, but experienced enough to have held other administrative roles. MoN seems to be the type of role you could put a woman with potential if you needed to ... since they don't actually participate in Tower policy you are safe if you end up with some one like Tianna who gets overwhelmed.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 19/10/2012 at 04:42:25 AM
Misc observations from my latest re-read
14/10/2012 08:26:37 PM
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How does LTT know about Far Madding's history?
14/10/2012 08:29:13 PM
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Re: How does LTT know about Far Madding's history?
14/10/2012 09:23:24 PM
- 1417 Views
Knowing the post Breaking history of the Guardians and speaking of the city as though he had persona
14/10/2012 09:56:55 PM
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How Stong was Gitara?
14/10/2012 08:34:43 PM
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So so stong. She had incredible stength.
14/10/2012 09:04:15 PM
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Degree of slowing is the same as how long they will live
14/10/2012 09:22:23 PM
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Re: Degree of slowing is the same as how long they will live
14/10/2012 09:36:19 PM
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Not in the mood to deal with you ... Go read the Ages section of 13th Depository
14/10/2012 09:53:14 PM
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Not interested in Linda's private theories.
15/10/2012 02:29:41 AM
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Not my problem if you are that lazy. All the quotes you want are nicely organized
15/10/2012 02:50:45 AM
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Problem is...
14/10/2012 11:52:00 PM
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Again, my point isn't about motivations for Elaida or Gitara ... that is clear
15/10/2012 12:07:49 AM
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Show me where in the books an adviser is selected by Tower authorities!
15/10/2012 02:58:19 AM
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Yet look what happens the minute a Stronger woman showed up
15/10/2012 03:19:18 AM
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Re: Yet look what happens the minute a Stronger woman showed up
15/10/2012 03:35:10 AM
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Yet Morgase herself states she didn't consider Elaida a friend
15/10/2012 03:45:45 AM
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How did Gareth Bryne get to stay Captain General, given his lack of respect to Aes Sedai?
15/10/2012 04:07:07 AM
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He was banging the queen
15/10/2012 04:19:24 AM
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And what Aes Sedai gave him permission to bang the queen?
15/10/2012 04:30:42 AM
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here ya go
15/10/2012 04:39:29 AM
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Re: Show me where in the books an adviser is selected by Tower authorities!
15/10/2012 10:38:16 AM
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Re: Again, my point isn't about motivations for Elaida or Gitara ... that is clear
15/10/2012 03:15:18 AM
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The thing is Elaida had no experience in the arena at all
15/10/2012 03:25:10 AM
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IT IS NOT THE TOWER'S DAMNED JOB! She had more than enough credentials for ANDOR
15/10/2012 03:45:15 AM
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Nope. Every other advisor we've seen has been sent from TV
15/10/2012 03:50:07 AM
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Those are not official advisers, those are ambassadors!
15/10/2012 04:17:51 AM
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So now you are saying that Elaida was a personal advisor not an envoy of the Tower?
15/10/2012 04:22:31 AM
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She didn't "land it". She took the job for herself...
15/10/2012 04:00:35 AM
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Actually every advisor we've seen except Elaida has been appointed
15/10/2012 04:11:39 AM
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You can bully someone into an act, not a twenty year relationship
15/10/2012 04:22:16 AM
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Not arguing that Morgase had a problem with her
15/10/2012 04:33:10 AM
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We know nothing of the sort.
15/10/2012 05:14:54 AM
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Prove that Elaida's post was not Tower sanctioned
15/10/2012 05:39:23 AM
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Re: Prove that Elaida's post was not Tower sanctioned
17/10/2012 04:15:37 AM
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Egwene said otherwise DomA,...
17/10/2012 05:33:01 AM
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And an answer to the rest of your "points"
15/10/2012 02:48:07 AM
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Again. I refer you to Linda's blog. The relevant quotes are there ... Enjoy
15/10/2012 02:52:03 AM
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The burden of proof is on you to make your points. There is nothing in the books.
15/10/2012 03:01:46 AM
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You mean the only way she could avoid become Queen was to flee?
15/10/2012 03:30:26 AM
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And never ever face discipline or punishment for fleeing? Outside the Tower, she was on her own.
15/10/2012 03:40:23 AM
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I'm not using her theory, I'm saying she posted all the damn quotes in one place
15/10/2012 03:57:00 AM
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You don't see how evading the Tower's authority for 10 years undermines YOUR position?
15/10/2012 05:21:29 AM
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Nope. It substantiates that the Tower will exert itself to ensure its Political standing
15/10/2012 05:41:33 AM
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Oh for the love of...! Here's the relevant quote:
15/10/2012 04:04:48 AM
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Okay, but that's still irrelevant to the Oath Rod & its cutoff period or method, as well as lifespan
15/10/2012 04:54:26 AM
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To quote you RTDB
15/10/2012 05:16:56 AM
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And that is probably the ONLY quote that wasn't on Linda's page *NM*
15/10/2012 04:55:33 AM
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How old was Lanfear?
14/10/2012 08:41:35 PM
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Re: How old was Lanfear?
14/10/2012 11:27:12 PM
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I couldn't find it
15/10/2012 12:22:43 AM
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It's in the Fires of Heaven, when Lanfear visits Rand and he remembers her as Mierin. *NM*
20/10/2012 04:19:09 AM
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Are the Seanchan prophesies false?
14/10/2012 08:43:55 PM
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I've only been saying no for years.
14/10/2012 09:21:43 PM
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Not the same thing
14/10/2012 09:44:43 PM
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Show me some damn PROOF already!!
15/10/2012 03:19:18 AM
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I believe DomA covered this in his post
15/10/2012 03:31:54 AM
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Illogic, arguments from (false) authority and now ad hominem attacks.
15/10/2012 03:46:49 AM
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I just don't see the point of an argument with someone who has already been proven wrong
15/10/2012 03:59:19 AM
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The frequently-confessing-ignorance, can't-keep-track-of-what-he-wrote ghostwriter, you mean.
15/10/2012 05:28:50 AM
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Touché ... But to DomA's point we'll likely get some resolution in AMoL *NM*
15/10/2012 05:53:14 AM
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Your argument is based on a faulty premise.
15/10/2012 08:11:19 PM
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That could also mean the same KC prophesies were is Seanchan before Luthair came along
16/10/2012 12:54:07 AM
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Of course there is truth...
14/10/2012 09:42:24 PM
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Didn't know Bsand had confirmed the corruption. Thanks for sharing
14/10/2012 10:02:40 PM
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Re: Didn't know Bsand had confirmed the corruption. Thanks for sharing
14/10/2012 10:23:17 PM
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Hmmm ...I like it! It is actually very similar to what Nynaeve does
14/10/2012 10:31:48 PM
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How do the Black Ajah not figure out who the others are?
14/10/2012 08:48:14 PM
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Who says they can't?
14/10/2012 09:23:11 PM
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True to a point
14/10/2012 10:00:01 PM
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Was Sheriam ranking? Would many of them have met her? Not everyone even gets to meet the SC.
15/10/2012 03:23:16 AM
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Re: Was Sheriam ranking? Would many of them have met her? Not everyone even gets to meet the SC.
15/10/2012 03:52:39 AM
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But isn't it interesting that Sheriam and Galina, both young and strong are on the SC?
15/10/2012 04:06:38 AM
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Galina isn't young. *NM*
17/10/2012 03:24:30 AM
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Yes she is
17/10/2012 03:46:39 PM
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85 years being BA, 90 years as a sister does not qualify her as a "young AS"
18/10/2012 05:35:33 PM
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She is not dissimilar to Sheriam when she made her rise IMO
18/10/2012 06:53:54 PM
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Re: She is not dissimilar to Sheriam when she made her rise IMO
18/10/2012 08:10:58 PM
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I think Linda is correct in this particular instance
19/10/2012 02:14:23 AM
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You mean the SC?
14/10/2012 10:47:31 PM
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No others meet as well
14/10/2012 11:01:21 PM
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Re: No others meet as well
14/10/2012 11:36:50 PM
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Yet rank and file BA have methods of communicating
15/10/2012 12:14:36 AM
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Re: Yet rank and file BA have methods of communicating
15/10/2012 03:26:59 AM
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I concede that the rank and file likely don't meet in large groups
15/10/2012 04:54:04 AM
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Re: I concede that the rank and file likely don't meet in large groups
15/10/2012 02:28:45 PM
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I agree that RJ probably had some thing up his sleeve
15/10/2012 03:01:20 PM
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Re: I agree that RJ probably had some thing up his sleeve
15/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
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I have a different opinion of Delana
16/10/2012 01:20:32 AM
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Re: I have a different opinion of Delana
16/10/2012 11:51:34 PM
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Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 02:55:19 AM
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Re: Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 03:40:54 PM
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Give the sign to a woman and see how she reacts
18/10/2012 06:57:38 PM
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Re: Give the sign to a woman and see how she reacts
18/10/2012 07:26:56 PM
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Not a good plan, I'll give you that
18/10/2012 07:37:45 PM
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Re: Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 04:59:25 PM
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Not conclusive ... in fact the whole bit is vague ... I wonder if RJ would have given us more detail
18/10/2012 07:23:30 PM
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Surely, in part, this is how Verin figured out who the Black Ajah was
15/10/2012 05:10:25 PM
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Is there a Dark Friend WO?
14/10/2012 08:51:16 PM
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I'd like to see more discussion on this; I'm curious as well
18/10/2012 12:44:35 AM
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Just a note about Bair
18/10/2012 07:53:45 AM
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The traps were defeated by Elza before freed Semirhage
18/10/2012 02:53:17 PM
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Re: The traps were defeated by Elza before freed Semirhage
18/10/2012 07:06:13 PM
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Sorilea would have not been able to disarm Cadsuane's wards. Both inverted and likely too strong
18/10/2012 07:35:22 PM
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No, she would not have been able to (nor even see them to report about them)
18/10/2012 09:32:38 PM
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Verin's goal was to dig out the BA. A WO would have been nothing more than a momentary
19/10/2012 04:11:51 AM
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I don't see how it could be possible
23/10/2012 09:31:51 PM
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It's certainly possible, though it might contribute to making it rather rare
23/10/2012 10:55:07 PM
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good point especially when you consider the Aiel view on pain and death
25/10/2012 06:14:40 PM
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Galad and Gaywn ... Channlers?
14/10/2012 10:47:55 PM
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Re: Galad and Gaywn ... Channlers?
14/10/2012 11:36:25 PM
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Totally pointless, just looking to spark some conversation on the board!
15/10/2012 12:23:34 AM
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But how often in real life does that happen? Alanis Morissette taught us about death row pardons *NM*
17/10/2012 12:27:45 AM
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