Not conclusive ... in fact the whole bit is vague ... I wonder if RJ would have given us more detail
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 18/10/2012 07:23:30 PM
The whole of the section only lists names and a few details... and she mentions far too many individuals to assume they were all SC, including Talene who we know for fact is not. And she never says a word about rank being noted.
The Gathering Storm
A Visit from Verin Sedai
The next few hours were among the most disturbing and discomforting in her life. Some of the names were unknown to her, many barely familiar. Others were women she had worked with, respected, and even trusted. She cursed when she found Katerine's name near the head of the list, then hissed in surprise when Alviarin's name came up. She'd heard of Elza Penfell and Galina Casban, though she didn't know some of the next few names.
She felt a sickening pit within her when she read Sheriam's name. Egwene had once suspected the woman, true, but that had been during her days as a novice and an Accepted. During those days—the days when she'd first begun hunting the Black Ajah—Liandrin's betrayal had still been fresh. Egwene had suspected everyone then.
During the exile in Salidar, Egwene had worked closely with Sheriam and had grown to like the woman. But she was Black. Egwene's own Keeper was Black. Steel yourself, Egwene, she thought, continuing to read down the list. She worked through the feelings of betrayal, the bitterness and the regret. She would not let emotions get in the way of her duty.
The Black sisters were spread across all Ajahs. Some were Sitters, others were the lowest and least powerful of Aes Sedai. And there were hundreds of them, a little over two hundred by Verin's own count. Twenty-one in the Blue, twenty-eight in the Brown, thirty in the Gray, thirty-eight in the Green, seventeen in the White, twenty-one in the Yellow, and a stunning forty-eight in the Red. There were names of Accepted and novices as well. The book noted that those had probably been Darkfriends before they joined the White Tower, as the Black Ajah did not recruit from any except Aes Sedai. It referred her to an earlier page for a longer explanation, but Egwene continued down the list of sisters. She needed to know the names of each woman. She needed to.
There were Black sisters among the rebel Aes Sedai and those of the White Tower, and even some among those unaligned who had been away from the Tower during the split. Other than Sheriam, the most disturbing discovery on the list were the sisters who were Sitters in either the Tower or among the rebels. Duhara Basaheen. Velina Behar. Sedore Dajenna. Delana Mosalaine, of course, and Talene Minly as well. Meidani had admitted to Egwene in confidence that Talene was the member of the Black Ajah that Saerin and the others had discovered, but she had fled the Tower.
Moria Karentanis. That last was a member of the Blue Ajah, a woman who had worn the shawl for over a hundred years, known for her wisdom and level-headedness. Egwene had conferred with her on numerous occasions, and had drawn on her experience, assuming that she—a Blue—would be one of the most reliable in her support. Moria had been one of those who had been eager to elect Egwene as Amyrlin, and had stood quickly in Egwene's favor at several crucial moments.
Each name was like a thorn through Egwene's skin. Dagdara Finchey, who had healed Egwene once when she'd stumbled and twisted her ankle. Zanica, who had taught Egwene lessons and had seemed so pleasant. Larissa Lyndel. Miyasi, for whom Egwene had cracked nuts. Nesita. Nacelle Kayama. Nalaene Forrell, who—like Elza—was bound to Rand. Birlen Pena. Melvara. Chai Rugan. ...
The list went on. Neither Romanda or Lelaine were Black, which was somewhat irritating. Being able to throw one or both of those into chains would have been very convenient. Why Sheriam, but neither of those two?
Stop it, Egwene, she thought. You aren't behaving rationally. Wishing for certain sisters to be Black got her nowhere.
Cadsuane was not on the list. Neither were any of Egwene's dearest friends. She hadn't expected them to be, but it was still good to complete the list without seeing any of their names. The group hunting the Black Ajah in the White Tower really was true, as none of their names were on the list. The list also didn't contain the names of any of the spies sent from Salidar.
And Elaida's name wasn't on the list either. There was a notation at the end, explaining that Verin had looked very closely at Elaida, searching for proof that she was Black. But comments by Black sisters led her to believe strongly that Elaida was not herself Black. Just an unstable woman who was sometimes as frustrating to the Black as she was to the rest of the Tower.
It made sense, unfortunately. Knowing that Galina and Alviarin were Black had led Egwene to suspect that she wouldn't find Elaida's name on the list. The Blacks seemed more likely to choose someone they could manipulate to be Amyrlin, then install a Black Keeper to keep her in line.
They probably had used some kind of leverage against Elaida through Galina—whom Verin noted had probably managed to make herself Head of the Red Ajah—or Alviarin. They had bullied or bribed Elaida to do as they wished without her knowing that she was serving the Black. And that helped explain Alviarin's strange fall. Had she gone too far, perhaps? Overstepped herself, earning Elaida's ire? It seemed plausible, though they wouldn't know for certain until Elaida spoke or Egwene could have Alviarin interrogated. Which she meant to do as soon as possible.
She closed the fat red book, thoughtful, her candle burned nearly down to the base. It was growing late in the day. Perhaps it was time to insist on being given some information about the state of the Tower.
Before she could decide how to go about that, a knock came at the door. Egwene looked up, hurriedly twisting the straps of the bookmark around and making both books vanish. A knock meant someone other than a Red was there.
Later when she is talking to Sheriam is when she notes that she is probably SC:
The Gathering Storm
Sealed to the Flame
She trailed off as Egwene held out the Oath Rod. "Prove it, Sheriam. The woman who came to me in the Tower gave me your name as a leader among the Black Ajah."
While not definitive, this presumably indicates that Sheriam is on the SC, but that is as specific as she gets. Same with Alviarin... she doesn't even confirm if she knows Alviarin is the Head ... she merely says she is "near the head of their organization" not much different than how she characterized Sheriam.
The Gathering Storm
A Visit from Verin Sedai
"Alviarin, Mother?" Meidani asked. "Why her?"
"She's Black," Egwene said, stomach turning. "And near the head of their organization in the Tower. This was the information Verin died to bring me."
In ToM Egwene seems most keen on hunting down Alviarin and Katerine ... likely Katerine only because of what a bitch she was. So perhaps she is aware that Alviarin is the Head, but it could as easily be because of their various MoN encounters or Egwene could have deduced that Alviarin was the highest ranking SC member left since Sheriam and Verin were both dead. Hard to say without knowing more SC names.
The Gathering Storm
A Visit from Verin Sedai
The next few hours were among the most disturbing and discomforting in her life. Some of the names were unknown to her, many barely familiar. Others were women she had worked with, respected, and even trusted. She cursed when she found Katerine's name near the head of the list, then hissed in surprise when Alviarin's name came up. She'd heard of Elza Penfell and Galina Casban, though she didn't know some of the next few names.
She felt a sickening pit within her when she read Sheriam's name. Egwene had once suspected the woman, true, but that had been during her days as a novice and an Accepted. During those days—the days when she'd first begun hunting the Black Ajah—Liandrin's betrayal had still been fresh. Egwene had suspected everyone then.
During the exile in Salidar, Egwene had worked closely with Sheriam and had grown to like the woman. But she was Black. Egwene's own Keeper was Black. Steel yourself, Egwene, she thought, continuing to read down the list. She worked through the feelings of betrayal, the bitterness and the regret. She would not let emotions get in the way of her duty.
The Black sisters were spread across all Ajahs. Some were Sitters, others were the lowest and least powerful of Aes Sedai. And there were hundreds of them, a little over two hundred by Verin's own count. Twenty-one in the Blue, twenty-eight in the Brown, thirty in the Gray, thirty-eight in the Green, seventeen in the White, twenty-one in the Yellow, and a stunning forty-eight in the Red. There were names of Accepted and novices as well. The book noted that those had probably been Darkfriends before they joined the White Tower, as the Black Ajah did not recruit from any except Aes Sedai. It referred her to an earlier page for a longer explanation, but Egwene continued down the list of sisters. She needed to know the names of each woman. She needed to.
There were Black sisters among the rebel Aes Sedai and those of the White Tower, and even some among those unaligned who had been away from the Tower during the split. Other than Sheriam, the most disturbing discovery on the list were the sisters who were Sitters in either the Tower or among the rebels. Duhara Basaheen. Velina Behar. Sedore Dajenna. Delana Mosalaine, of course, and Talene Minly as well. Meidani had admitted to Egwene in confidence that Talene was the member of the Black Ajah that Saerin and the others had discovered, but she had fled the Tower.
Moria Karentanis. That last was a member of the Blue Ajah, a woman who had worn the shawl for over a hundred years, known for her wisdom and level-headedness. Egwene had conferred with her on numerous occasions, and had drawn on her experience, assuming that she—a Blue—would be one of the most reliable in her support. Moria had been one of those who had been eager to elect Egwene as Amyrlin, and had stood quickly in Egwene's favor at several crucial moments.
Each name was like a thorn through Egwene's skin. Dagdara Finchey, who had healed Egwene once when she'd stumbled and twisted her ankle. Zanica, who had taught Egwene lessons and had seemed so pleasant. Larissa Lyndel. Miyasi, for whom Egwene had cracked nuts. Nesita. Nacelle Kayama. Nalaene Forrell, who—like Elza—was bound to Rand. Birlen Pena. Melvara. Chai Rugan. ...
The list went on. Neither Romanda or Lelaine were Black, which was somewhat irritating. Being able to throw one or both of those into chains would have been very convenient. Why Sheriam, but neither of those two?
Stop it, Egwene, she thought. You aren't behaving rationally. Wishing for certain sisters to be Black got her nowhere.
Cadsuane was not on the list. Neither were any of Egwene's dearest friends. She hadn't expected them to be, but it was still good to complete the list without seeing any of their names. The group hunting the Black Ajah in the White Tower really was true, as none of their names were on the list. The list also didn't contain the names of any of the spies sent from Salidar.
And Elaida's name wasn't on the list either. There was a notation at the end, explaining that Verin had looked very closely at Elaida, searching for proof that she was Black. But comments by Black sisters led her to believe strongly that Elaida was not herself Black. Just an unstable woman who was sometimes as frustrating to the Black as she was to the rest of the Tower.
It made sense, unfortunately. Knowing that Galina and Alviarin were Black had led Egwene to suspect that she wouldn't find Elaida's name on the list. The Blacks seemed more likely to choose someone they could manipulate to be Amyrlin, then install a Black Keeper to keep her in line.
They probably had used some kind of leverage against Elaida through Galina—whom Verin noted had probably managed to make herself Head of the Red Ajah—or Alviarin. They had bullied or bribed Elaida to do as they wished without her knowing that she was serving the Black. And that helped explain Alviarin's strange fall. Had she gone too far, perhaps? Overstepped herself, earning Elaida's ire? It seemed plausible, though they wouldn't know for certain until Elaida spoke or Egwene could have Alviarin interrogated. Which she meant to do as soon as possible.
She closed the fat red book, thoughtful, her candle burned nearly down to the base. It was growing late in the day. Perhaps it was time to insist on being given some information about the state of the Tower.
Before she could decide how to go about that, a knock came at the door. Egwene looked up, hurriedly twisting the straps of the bookmark around and making both books vanish. A knock meant someone other than a Red was there.
Later when she is talking to Sheriam is when she notes that she is probably SC:
The Gathering Storm
Sealed to the Flame
She trailed off as Egwene held out the Oath Rod. "Prove it, Sheriam. The woman who came to me in the Tower gave me your name as a leader among the Black Ajah."
While not definitive, this presumably indicates that Sheriam is on the SC, but that is as specific as she gets. Same with Alviarin... she doesn't even confirm if she knows Alviarin is the Head ... she merely says she is "near the head of their organization" not much different than how she characterized Sheriam.
The Gathering Storm
A Visit from Verin Sedai
"Alviarin, Mother?" Meidani asked. "Why her?"
"She's Black," Egwene said, stomach turning. "And near the head of their organization in the Tower. This was the information Verin died to bring me."
In ToM Egwene seems most keen on hunting down Alviarin and Katerine ... likely Katerine only because of what a bitch she was. So perhaps she is aware that Alviarin is the Head, but it could as easily be because of their various MoN encounters or Egwene could have deduced that Alviarin was the highest ranking SC member left since Sheriam and Verin were both dead. Hard to say without knowing more SC names.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Misc observations from my latest re-read
14/10/2012 08:26:37 PM
- 2841 Views
How does LTT know about Far Madding's history?
14/10/2012 08:29:13 PM
- 1415 Views
Re: How does LTT know about Far Madding's history?
14/10/2012 09:23:24 PM
- 1440 Views
Knowing the post Breaking history of the Guardians and speaking of the city as though he had persona
14/10/2012 09:56:55 PM
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How Stong was Gitara?
14/10/2012 08:34:43 PM
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So so stong. She had incredible stength.
14/10/2012 09:04:15 PM
- 1392 Views
Degree of slowing is the same as how long they will live
14/10/2012 09:22:23 PM
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Re: Degree of slowing is the same as how long they will live
14/10/2012 09:36:19 PM
- 1018 Views
Not in the mood to deal with you ... Go read the Ages section of 13th Depository
14/10/2012 09:53:14 PM
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Not interested in Linda's private theories.
15/10/2012 02:29:41 AM
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Not my problem if you are that lazy. All the quotes you want are nicely organized
15/10/2012 02:50:45 AM
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Problem is...
14/10/2012 11:52:00 PM
- 1144 Views
Again, my point isn't about motivations for Elaida or Gitara ... that is clear
15/10/2012 12:07:49 AM
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Show me where in the books an adviser is selected by Tower authorities!
15/10/2012 02:58:19 AM
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Yet look what happens the minute a Stronger woman showed up
15/10/2012 03:19:18 AM
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Re: Yet look what happens the minute a Stronger woman showed up
15/10/2012 03:35:10 AM
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Yet Morgase herself states she didn't consider Elaida a friend
15/10/2012 03:45:45 AM
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How did Gareth Bryne get to stay Captain General, given his lack of respect to Aes Sedai?
15/10/2012 04:07:07 AM
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He was banging the queen
15/10/2012 04:19:24 AM
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And what Aes Sedai gave him permission to bang the queen?
15/10/2012 04:30:42 AM
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here ya go
15/10/2012 04:39:29 AM
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Re: Show me where in the books an adviser is selected by Tower authorities!
15/10/2012 10:38:16 AM
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Re: Again, my point isn't about motivations for Elaida or Gitara ... that is clear
15/10/2012 03:15:18 AM
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The thing is Elaida had no experience in the arena at all
15/10/2012 03:25:10 AM
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IT IS NOT THE TOWER'S DAMNED JOB! She had more than enough credentials for ANDOR
15/10/2012 03:45:15 AM
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Nope. Every other advisor we've seen has been sent from TV
15/10/2012 03:50:07 AM
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Those are not official advisers, those are ambassadors!
15/10/2012 04:17:51 AM
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So now you are saying that Elaida was a personal advisor not an envoy of the Tower?
15/10/2012 04:22:31 AM
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She didn't "land it". She took the job for herself...
15/10/2012 04:00:35 AM
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Actually every advisor we've seen except Elaida has been appointed
15/10/2012 04:11:39 AM
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You can bully someone into an act, not a twenty year relationship
15/10/2012 04:22:16 AM
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Not arguing that Morgase had a problem with her
15/10/2012 04:33:10 AM
- 933 Views
We know nothing of the sort.
15/10/2012 05:14:54 AM
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Prove that Elaida's post was not Tower sanctioned
15/10/2012 05:39:23 AM
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Re: Prove that Elaida's post was not Tower sanctioned
17/10/2012 04:15:37 AM
- 1055 Views
Egwene said otherwise DomA,...
17/10/2012 05:33:01 AM
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And an answer to the rest of your "points"
15/10/2012 02:48:07 AM
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Again. I refer you to Linda's blog. The relevant quotes are there ... Enjoy
15/10/2012 02:52:03 AM
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The burden of proof is on you to make your points. There is nothing in the books.
15/10/2012 03:01:46 AM
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You mean the only way she could avoid become Queen was to flee?
15/10/2012 03:30:26 AM
- 997 Views
And never ever face discipline or punishment for fleeing? Outside the Tower, she was on her own.
15/10/2012 03:40:23 AM
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I'm not using her theory, I'm saying she posted all the damn quotes in one place
15/10/2012 03:57:00 AM
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You don't see how evading the Tower's authority for 10 years undermines YOUR position?
15/10/2012 05:21:29 AM
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Nope. It substantiates that the Tower will exert itself to ensure its Political standing
15/10/2012 05:41:33 AM
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Oh for the love of...! Here's the relevant quote:
15/10/2012 04:04:48 AM
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Okay, but that's still irrelevant to the Oath Rod & its cutoff period or method, as well as lifespan
15/10/2012 04:54:26 AM
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To quote you RTDB
15/10/2012 05:16:56 AM
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And that is probably the ONLY quote that wasn't on Linda's page *NM*
15/10/2012 04:55:33 AM
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How old was Lanfear?
14/10/2012 08:41:35 PM
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Re: How old was Lanfear?
14/10/2012 11:27:12 PM
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I couldn't find it
15/10/2012 12:22:43 AM
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It's in the Fires of Heaven, when Lanfear visits Rand and he remembers her as Mierin. *NM*
20/10/2012 04:19:09 AM
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Are the Seanchan prophesies false?
14/10/2012 08:43:55 PM
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I've only been saying no for years.
14/10/2012 09:21:43 PM
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Not the same thing
14/10/2012 09:44:43 PM
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Show me some damn PROOF already!!
15/10/2012 03:19:18 AM
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I believe DomA covered this in his post
15/10/2012 03:31:54 AM
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Illogic, arguments from (false) authority and now ad hominem attacks.
15/10/2012 03:46:49 AM
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I just don't see the point of an argument with someone who has already been proven wrong
15/10/2012 03:59:19 AM
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The frequently-confessing-ignorance, can't-keep-track-of-what-he-wrote ghostwriter, you mean.
15/10/2012 05:28:50 AM
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Touché ... But to DomA's point we'll likely get some resolution in AMoL *NM*
15/10/2012 05:53:14 AM
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Your argument is based on a faulty premise.
15/10/2012 08:11:19 PM
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That could also mean the same KC prophesies were is Seanchan before Luthair came along
16/10/2012 12:54:07 AM
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Of course there is truth...
14/10/2012 09:42:24 PM
- 1096 Views
Didn't know Bsand had confirmed the corruption. Thanks for sharing
14/10/2012 10:02:40 PM
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Re: Didn't know Bsand had confirmed the corruption. Thanks for sharing
14/10/2012 10:23:17 PM
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Hmmm ...I like it! It is actually very similar to what Nynaeve does
14/10/2012 10:31:48 PM
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How do the Black Ajah not figure out who the others are?
14/10/2012 08:48:14 PM
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Who says they can't?
14/10/2012 09:23:11 PM
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True to a point
14/10/2012 10:00:01 PM
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Was Sheriam ranking? Would many of them have met her? Not everyone even gets to meet the SC.
15/10/2012 03:23:16 AM
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Re: Was Sheriam ranking? Would many of them have met her? Not everyone even gets to meet the SC.
15/10/2012 03:52:39 AM
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But isn't it interesting that Sheriam and Galina, both young and strong are on the SC?
15/10/2012 04:06:38 AM
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Galina isn't young. *NM*
17/10/2012 03:24:30 AM
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Yes she is
17/10/2012 03:46:39 PM
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85 years being BA, 90 years as a sister does not qualify her as a "young AS"
18/10/2012 05:35:33 PM
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She is not dissimilar to Sheriam when she made her rise IMO
18/10/2012 06:53:54 PM
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You mean the SC?
14/10/2012 10:47:31 PM
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No others meet as well
14/10/2012 11:01:21 PM
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Re: No others meet as well
14/10/2012 11:36:50 PM
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Yet rank and file BA have methods of communicating
15/10/2012 12:14:36 AM
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Re: Yet rank and file BA have methods of communicating
15/10/2012 03:26:59 AM
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I concede that the rank and file likely don't meet in large groups
15/10/2012 04:54:04 AM
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Re: I concede that the rank and file likely don't meet in large groups
15/10/2012 02:28:45 PM
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I agree that RJ probably had some thing up his sleeve
15/10/2012 03:01:20 PM
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Re: I agree that RJ probably had some thing up his sleeve
15/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
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I have a different opinion of Delana
16/10/2012 01:20:32 AM
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Re: I have a different opinion of Delana
16/10/2012 11:51:34 PM
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Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 02:55:19 AM
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Re: Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 03:40:54 PM
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Give the sign to a woman and see how she reacts
18/10/2012 06:57:38 PM
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Re: Give the sign to a woman and see how she reacts
18/10/2012 07:26:56 PM
- 950 Views
Not a good plan, I'll give you that
18/10/2012 07:37:45 PM
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Re: Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 04:59:25 PM
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Not conclusive ... in fact the whole bit is vague ... I wonder if RJ would have given us more detail
18/10/2012 07:23:30 PM
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Surely, in part, this is how Verin figured out who the Black Ajah was
15/10/2012 05:10:25 PM
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Is there a Dark Friend WO?
14/10/2012 08:51:16 PM
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I'd like to see more discussion on this; I'm curious as well
18/10/2012 12:44:35 AM
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Just a note about Bair
18/10/2012 07:53:45 AM
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The traps were defeated by Elza before freed Semirhage
18/10/2012 02:53:17 PM
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Re: The traps were defeated by Elza before freed Semirhage
18/10/2012 07:06:13 PM
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Sorilea would have not been able to disarm Cadsuane's wards. Both inverted and likely too strong
18/10/2012 07:35:22 PM
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No, she would not have been able to (nor even see them to report about them)
18/10/2012 09:32:38 PM
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Verin's goal was to dig out the BA. A WO would have been nothing more than a momentary
19/10/2012 04:11:51 AM
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I don't see how it could be possible
23/10/2012 09:31:51 PM
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It's certainly possible, though it might contribute to making it rather rare
23/10/2012 10:55:07 PM
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good point especially when you consider the Aiel view on pain and death
25/10/2012 06:14:40 PM
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Galad and Gaywn ... Channlers?
14/10/2012 10:47:55 PM
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Re: Galad and Gaywn ... Channlers?
14/10/2012 11:36:25 PM
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Totally pointless, just looking to spark some conversation on the board!
15/10/2012 12:23:34 AM
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But how often in real life does that happen? Alanis Morissette taught us about death row pardons *NM*
17/10/2012 12:27:45 AM
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