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Re: The traps were defeated by Elza before freed Semirhage DomA Send a noteboard - 18/10/2012 07:06:13 PM
it bears noting that Bair, not being able to channel, wouldn't have been able to see how Cadsuane disarmed her traps, so, IMO, this clue points towards Sorilea.


I don't think I agree. Even if Cadsuane inverted the traps, I'd bet on Semirhage knowing a way to get past them. And it's not necessary that the betrayer actually be a darkfriend - they could be under compulsion.


Remember she and SH brought the a'dam to Semirhage when they busted her loose.

I'm torn between the two as there are strong arguments for both. I lean a touch on the Sorilea side only because of a comment Verin made about her to Cadsuane. Very thin, but feels foreshadowy now that we know what Verin was up to. I'll have to go dig up the quote for you.


The way Sorilea gave Verin the sleeping potion in plain sight at the very least speaks against the two of them knowing the other is DF (Sorilea would have given the mixture to Verin in private otherwise, and would at least never have mentionned it's potential lethality in front of others... if women started dying in their sleep, this would have raised suspicions).

About Cadsuane's wards, they were inverted. Sorilea in the scene looked the other way, but anyway she would not have seen anything as Cadsuane merely untied inverted weaves... We also know from Moiraine Myrddraal can sense "as a beacon" all wards which aren't made to hide something from a Myrrdraal. Brandon also said taught Elza and that it wasn't pleasant, and Brandon added that SH couldn't do it because of limitations to how much he can interact with reality. The bottomline is that there doesn't appear to be any motive to believe Cadsuane was betrayed by anyone but Elza. It was known by Rand's inner circle that she had taken and hid all the a'dam. She's even tested the female one with her followers...

For the rest, the "clues" that were brought up against Sorilea are most tenuous. She doesn't appear to have stirred the WO in the wrong direction at any time. Her alliance with Cadsuane isn't suspicious... they both sought to avoid Rand becoming too hard. Cadsuane was also right Sorilea's goals were somewhat different: Sorilea's focus was on saving the Aiel, Cadsuane's was on saving the world.

As for Bair, the clues are just as tenuous. In truth, the only very suspicious thing she's done is in chapter one of AMOL. She broke with the collegial nature of their little group, that used to reach agreement together before taking action. Now for some mysterious reason, Bair has decided to push aside the decision to send an apprentice to Rhuidean soon and instead of debating with the others if it would not be better to send a full WO to try to enter the columns a second time, she's made sure she'd to be the one to do that, and thus to be the first to reach Rhuidean by secretely asking Aviendha for a Gateway. Had she feared Amys or Sorilea wouldn't agree but think they should be the ones going, Bair would not have acted differently. In this light, the fact she obviously recognized the name Nakomi but chose to hide what she knew from Aviendha is also suspicious. It's as if Bair wanted to be sure she'd be the one in the position to have the last say on Aviendha's vision. Whatever happens to her there, whatever she sees for real (if anything), Bair's report will most likely be the one on which the WO base their final decisions.

That being said, it's terribly difficult to find clues... Both Sorilea and Bair are the top WO of their clan. Both their clans and clan chiefs are among those who supported Rand early. Neither clan is part of those that strayed later. Those two clan chiefs are very background characters, barely ever mentionned (and not referred to since LOC). Both WO played a key role in "saving Rand" through TGS (ie: Tam). Bair has shared an important dream with the other (she didn't have to). Bair fought a Forsaken in TAR with Egwene. Both trained Egwene - she got a lot from Sorilea's ways to lead. Nothing really stands out. Both Bair and Sorilea are with Amys among the WO reacting/adapting the best to the changes brought by Rand (the important WO who balked here and there and was brought back in line by the others was rather Melaine, and of course the Shaido). There's no sign that either Bair or Sorilea have done anything to foster the disgruntlement between Rand and the clans.

Verin found it obvious that Katerine had help escaping from the WO, and both Sorilea and Bair were in the camp... but they were along dozens of other WO and gai'shain...

Basically, if either of those two is a DF, she obviously has orders to remain hidden and not attract any attention until the LB starts. Whatever the plans of Moridin for the DF Aiel, it seems those plans will play out during TG (as it appears to be the case with the vast majority of DF, actually), and if he has someone as high standing as a WO or clan chief, he needs them to lead the rest.

In fact, the only clan we know to have harboured proven DF and to have been manipulated by the Shadow was the Shaido, a clan without allies, and considered corrupted by many Aiel. As unlikely as it sounds, it may be that the heart of Shadow beliefs among Aiel was always among the Shaido, that they were the only clan where the Shadow has spread to the clan structure (circles at sept and hold levels etc.), that for the other clans it's limited to individuals within the warrior societies, corrupted by Shaido DF from the same societies.

The best we might have is a potential endgame attempt by Moridin to have the Aiel break away from Rand and his plans on the eve of TG. That attempt may have been made using Aviendha. If Moridin has a top WO among his pawns, he would know she was about to be sent, then that was sent to Rhuidean. Her weird encounter with Nakomi, her second set of visions may have been arranged (I'm far from convinced myself, but I don't see any good reason to discount the possibility... ). And now, if Bair is the DF, she'll soon be in the position required to seriously influence what will happen next. She could return with exactly the right interpretation the Shadow wanted the Aiel to make of that vision, and all the authority of a WO (in the sense that it's doubtful after Bair the WO keep sending one WO after another to further test the ter'angreal - Bair's experience is likely to be the final straw determining how the WO will interpret it all and make their decisions. It's hard to see how this will play out.. Bair will spend a lot of time there, the decisions at Merrilor could all be taken when she returns. It would be more obvious if she returned early enough to influence decisions about the Seanchan. If Bair confirmed Aviendha's future, learning that following a peace imposed by Rand they resume their conquest, win, destroy Tar Valon and the Asha'man, destroy the Aiel could influence Egwene, Elayne and even Rand about the Seanchan. It would put great pressure on Rand to give up on any idea of an alliance with Fortuona. And this would serve the Shadow, as I'm fairly convinced the alliance Demandred doesn't want to happen at any cost is the one between Rand and the Seanchan (the Shadow did have big plans to prevent Aes Sedai and Asha'man to be major players with Rand... Mesaana at the WT keeping the AS totally divided, and Taim at the BT, plans that have largely failed for the WT while Taim's success is still up in the air, but Mesaana's demise is way too recent for the Shadow to have a new plan in motion. However, we know Moridin seeks to prevent an alliance with the Seanchan, it was part of his orders to Graendal. I'm pretty convinced from Murandy is about to attack the Seanchan, strong of a supposed alliance with the BT and WT Roedran would announce after he returns from Merrilor.. an alliance with Taim and the remnants of the BA in truth. To cover it all up, he would just have to make a lot of noise at Merrilor about his conviction the Seanchan are about to invade him, then leave in a show of anger when Rand and the nations refuse to get involved in this, and privately claims the Seanchan are Mat's businness now, that he has gone to Ebou Dar, and he will be the one bringing them to an alliance soon. News a little while later that Murandy has attacked the Seanchan wouldn't worry anyone in those circumstances, they would just say "what an idiot".. when in fact it would Demandred crippling the Seanchan, stealing and turning to the Shadow the surviving damane, before he turns his attention on Rand).

This message last edited by DomA on 18/10/2012 at 07:16:04 PM
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Misc observations from my latest re-read - 14/10/2012 08:26:37 PM 2827 Views
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Re: Degree of slowing is the same as how long they will live - 14/10/2012 09:36:19 PM 1004 Views
Not in the mood to deal with you ... Go read the Ages section of 13th Depository - 14/10/2012 09:53:14 PM 1010 Views
Not interested in Linda's private theories. - 15/10/2012 02:29:41 AM 1157 Views
And there's Sorilea... - 15/10/2012 02:53:15 AM 1220 Views
Perhaps, but Bair is in her 80s and can't channel at all - 15/10/2012 03:09:35 AM 971 Views
Problem is... - 14/10/2012 11:52:00 PM 1133 Views
Again, my point isn't about motivations for Elaida or Gitara ... that is clear - 15/10/2012 12:07:49 AM 969 Views
Show me where in the books an adviser is selected by Tower authorities! - 15/10/2012 02:58:19 AM 992 Views
Yet look what happens the minute a Stronger woman showed up - 15/10/2012 03:19:18 AM 935 Views
Re: Yet look what happens the minute a Stronger woman showed up - 15/10/2012 03:35:10 AM 1082 Views
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He was banging the queen - 15/10/2012 04:19:24 AM 951 Views
And what Aes Sedai gave him permission to bang the queen? - 15/10/2012 04:30:42 AM 1196 Views
here ya go - 15/10/2012 04:39:29 AM 1051 Views
There's an awful lot for "not many" - 15/10/2012 05:07:30 AM 982 Views
When did I say I bought into Linda's theories? - 15/10/2012 05:29:27 AM 920 Views
Re: Again, my point isn't about motivations for Elaida or Gitara ... that is clear - 15/10/2012 03:15:18 AM 1034 Views
The thing is Elaida had no experience in the arena at all - 15/10/2012 03:25:10 AM 977 Views
IT IS NOT THE TOWER'S DAMNED JOB! She had more than enough credentials for ANDOR - 15/10/2012 03:45:15 AM 993 Views
Nope. Every other advisor we've seen has been sent from TV - 15/10/2012 03:50:07 AM 976 Views
Those are not official advisers, those are ambassadors! - 15/10/2012 04:17:51 AM 1030 Views
So now you are saying that Elaida was a personal advisor not an envoy of the Tower? - 15/10/2012 04:22:31 AM 949 Views
Finally! I was beginning to despair of your literacy! - 15/10/2012 04:34:18 AM 1044 Views
now I am questioning your literacy *NM* - 15/10/2012 04:40:45 AM 667 Views
She didn't "land it". She took the job for herself... - 15/10/2012 04:00:35 AM 977 Views
Actually every advisor we've seen except Elaida has been appointed - 15/10/2012 04:11:39 AM 989 Views
You can bully someone into an act, not a twenty year relationship - 15/10/2012 04:22:16 AM 1106 Views
Not arguing that Morgase had a problem with her - 15/10/2012 04:33:10 AM 923 Views
We know nothing of the sort. - 15/10/2012 05:14:54 AM 918 Views
Prove that Elaida's post was not Tower sanctioned - 15/10/2012 05:39:23 AM 1019 Views
Re: Prove that Elaida's post was not Tower sanctioned - 17/10/2012 04:15:37 AM 1040 Views
Egwene said otherwise DomA,... - 17/10/2012 05:33:01 AM 1000 Views
Re: Egwene said otherwise DomA,... - 17/10/2012 01:01:47 PM 1084 Views
Just to be clear - 17/10/2012 03:58:58 PM 924 Views
Re: Egwene said otherwise DomA,... - 18/10/2012 01:23:48 AM 1018 Views
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And an answer to the rest of your "points" - 15/10/2012 02:48:07 AM 1178 Views
Again. I refer you to Linda's blog. The relevant quotes are there ... Enjoy - 15/10/2012 02:52:03 AM 977 Views
Oh for the love of...! Here's the relevant quote: - 15/10/2012 04:04:48 AM 1061 Views
Okay, but that's still irrelevant to the Oath Rod & its cutoff period or method, as well as lifespan - 15/10/2012 04:54:26 AM 979 Views
To quote you RTDB - 15/10/2012 05:16:56 AM 925 Views
Re: To quote you RTDB - 15/10/2012 05:27:47 AM 994 Views
Some people look young. - 15/10/2012 05:51:25 AM 888 Views
I never mentioned the OR... - 16/10/2012 01:38:48 AM 996 Views
RJ said Sharina would go back to about middle aged - 16/10/2012 02:23:21 AM 821 Views
And that is probably the ONLY quote that wasn't on Linda's page *NM* - 15/10/2012 04:55:33 AM 593 Views
Told you so. *NM* - 15/10/2012 05:21:58 AM 695 Views
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Aging - 15/10/2012 06:08:47 PM 995 Views
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Show me some damn PROOF already!! - 15/10/2012 03:19:18 AM 1133 Views
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Your argument is based on a faulty premise. - 15/10/2012 08:11:19 PM 851 Views
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Didn't know Bsand had confirmed the corruption. Thanks for sharing - 14/10/2012 10:02:40 PM 1031 Views
Re: Didn't know Bsand had confirmed the corruption. Thanks for sharing - 14/10/2012 10:23:17 PM 1028 Views
Hmmm ...I like it! It is actually very similar to what Nynaeve does - 14/10/2012 10:31:48 PM 1116 Views
How do the Black Ajah not figure out who the others are? - 14/10/2012 08:48:14 PM 1021 Views
Who says they can't? - 14/10/2012 09:23:11 PM 1023 Views
True to a point - 14/10/2012 10:00:01 PM 920 Views
Was Sheriam ranking? Would many of them have met her? Not everyone even gets to meet the SC. - 15/10/2012 03:23:16 AM 988 Views
Perhaps not. But a woman like Sheriam would stick out - 15/10/2012 03:37:12 AM 939 Views
Re: Was Sheriam ranking? Would many of them have met her? Not everyone even gets to meet the SC. - 15/10/2012 03:52:39 AM 995 Views
But isn't it interesting that Sheriam and Galina, both young and strong are on the SC? - 15/10/2012 04:06:38 AM 886 Views
Galina isn't young. *NM* - 17/10/2012 03:24:30 AM 675 Views
Yes she is - 17/10/2012 03:46:39 PM 1032 Views
85 years being BA, 90 years as a sister does not qualify her as a "young AS" - 18/10/2012 05:35:33 PM 1004 Views
She is not dissimilar to Sheriam when she made her rise IMO - 18/10/2012 06:53:54 PM 948 Views
Re: She is not dissimilar to Sheriam when she made her rise IMO - 18/10/2012 08:10:58 PM 996 Views
I think Linda is correct in this particular instance - 19/10/2012 02:14:23 AM 1065 Views
You mean the SC? - 14/10/2012 10:47:31 PM 1039 Views
No others meet as well - 14/10/2012 11:01:21 PM 1041 Views
Re: No others meet as well - 14/10/2012 11:36:50 PM 1007 Views
Yet rank and file BA have methods of communicating - 15/10/2012 12:14:36 AM 889 Views
Re: Yet rank and file BA have methods of communicating - 15/10/2012 03:26:59 AM 952 Views
I concede that the rank and file likely don't meet in large groups - 15/10/2012 04:54:04 AM 918 Views
Re: I concede that the rank and file likely don't meet in large groups - 15/10/2012 02:28:45 PM 1034 Views
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Re: I agree that RJ probably had some thing up his sleeve - 15/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1137 Views
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Re: I have a different opinion of Delana - 16/10/2012 11:51:34 PM 938 Views
Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC - 18/10/2012 02:55:19 AM 1002 Views
Re: Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC - 18/10/2012 03:40:54 PM 875 Views
Give the sign to a woman and see how she reacts - 18/10/2012 06:57:38 PM 1013 Views
Re: Give the sign to a woman and see how she reacts - 18/10/2012 07:26:56 PM 931 Views
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*sigh* - 18/10/2012 08:25:23 PM 1016 Views
*double sigh* - 19/10/2012 04:03:00 AM 944 Views
Re: *double sigh* - 19/10/2012 05:48:25 PM 967 Views
Agreed *NM* - 20/10/2012 04:57:18 PM 587 Views
Re: Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC - 18/10/2012 04:59:25 PM 1051 Views
Not conclusive ... in fact the whole bit is vague ... I wonder if RJ would have given us more detail - 18/10/2012 07:23:30 PM 1029 Views
Not conclusive? - 18/10/2012 08:49:49 PM 898 Views
Don't put words in my mouth that I never said - 19/10/2012 04:08:22 AM 890 Views
double post *NM* - 19/10/2012 04:08:22 AM 586 Views
Is there a Dark Friend WO? - 14/10/2012 08:51:16 PM 1091 Views
Re: Is there a Dark Friend WO? - 17/10/2012 08:33:27 PM 1120 Views
I'd like to see more discussion on this; I'm curious as well - 18/10/2012 12:44:35 AM 894 Views
Just a note about Bair - 18/10/2012 07:53:45 AM 1026 Views
The traps were defeated by Elza before freed Semirhage - 18/10/2012 02:53:17 PM 989 Views
Re: The traps were defeated by Elza before freed Semirhage - 18/10/2012 07:06:13 PM 1165 Views
I don't see how it could be possible - 23/10/2012 09:31:51 PM 899 Views
Galad and Gaywn ... Channlers? - 14/10/2012 10:47:55 PM 1172 Views
Re: Galad and Gaywn ... Channlers? - 14/10/2012 11:36:25 PM 1096 Views

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