Re: The traps were defeated by Elza before freed Semirhage
DomA Send a noteboard - 18/10/2012 07:06:13 PM
it bears noting that Bair, not being able to channel, wouldn't have been able to see how Cadsuane disarmed her traps, so, IMO, this clue points towards Sorilea.
I don't think I agree. Even if Cadsuane inverted the traps, I'd bet on Semirhage knowing a way to get past them. And it's not necessary that the betrayer actually be a darkfriend - they could be under compulsion.
Remember she and SH brought the a'dam to Semirhage when they busted her loose.
I'm torn between the two as there are strong arguments for both. I lean a touch on the Sorilea side only because of a comment Verin made about her to Cadsuane. Very thin, but feels foreshadowy now that we know what Verin was up to. I'll have to go dig up the quote for you.
The way Sorilea gave Verin the sleeping potion in plain sight at the very least speaks against the two of them knowing the other is DF (Sorilea would have given the mixture to Verin in private otherwise, and would at least never have mentionned it's potential lethality in front of others... if women started dying in their sleep, this would have raised suspicions).
About Cadsuane's wards, they were inverted. Sorilea in the scene looked the other way, but anyway she would not have seen anything as Cadsuane merely untied inverted weaves... We also know from Moiraine Myrddraal can sense "as a beacon" all wards which aren't made to hide something from a Myrrdraal. Brandon also said taught Elza and that it wasn't pleasant, and Brandon added that SH couldn't do it because of limitations to how much he can interact with reality. The bottomline is that there doesn't appear to be any motive to believe Cadsuane was betrayed by anyone but Elza. It was known by Rand's inner circle that she had taken and hid all the a'dam. She's even tested the female one with her followers...
For the rest, the "clues" that were brought up against Sorilea are most tenuous. She doesn't appear to have stirred the WO in the wrong direction at any time. Her alliance with Cadsuane isn't suspicious... they both sought to avoid Rand becoming too hard. Cadsuane was also right Sorilea's goals were somewhat different: Sorilea's focus was on saving the Aiel, Cadsuane's was on saving the world.
As for Bair, the clues are just as tenuous. In truth, the only very suspicious thing she's done is in chapter one of AMOL. She broke with the collegial nature of their little group, that used to reach agreement together before taking action. Now for some mysterious reason, Bair has decided to push aside the decision to send an apprentice to Rhuidean soon and instead of debating with the others if it would not be better to send a full WO to try to enter the columns a second time, she's made sure she'd to be the one to do that, and thus to be the first to reach Rhuidean by secretely asking Aviendha for a Gateway. Had she feared Amys or Sorilea wouldn't agree but think they should be the ones going, Bair would not have acted differently. In this light, the fact she obviously recognized the name Nakomi but chose to hide what she knew from Aviendha is also suspicious. It's as if Bair wanted to be sure she'd be the one in the position to have the last say on Aviendha's vision. Whatever happens to her there, whatever she sees for real (if anything), Bair's report will most likely be the one on which the WO base their final decisions.
That being said, it's terribly difficult to find clues... Both Sorilea and Bair are the top WO of their clan. Both their clans and clan chiefs are among those who supported Rand early. Neither clan is part of those that strayed later. Those two clan chiefs are very background characters, barely ever mentionned (and not referred to since LOC). Both WO played a key role in "saving Rand" through TGS (ie: Tam). Bair has shared an important dream with the other (she didn't have to). Bair fought a Forsaken in TAR with Egwene. Both trained Egwene - she got a lot from Sorilea's ways to lead. Nothing really stands out. Both Bair and Sorilea are with Amys among the WO reacting/adapting the best to the changes brought by Rand (the important WO who balked here and there and was brought back in line by the others was rather Melaine, and of course the Shaido). There's no sign that either Bair or Sorilea have done anything to foster the disgruntlement between Rand and the clans.
Verin found it obvious that Katerine had help escaping from the WO, and both Sorilea and Bair were in the camp... but they were along dozens of other WO and gai'shain...
Basically, if either of those two is a DF, she obviously has orders to remain hidden and not attract any attention until the LB starts. Whatever the plans of Moridin for the DF Aiel, it seems those plans will play out during TG (as it appears to be the case with the vast majority of DF, actually), and if he has someone as high standing as a WO or clan chief, he needs them to lead the rest.
In fact, the only clan we know to have harboured proven DF and to have been manipulated by the Shadow was the Shaido, a clan without allies, and considered corrupted by many Aiel. As unlikely as it sounds, it may be that the heart of Shadow beliefs among Aiel was always among the Shaido, that they were the only clan where the Shadow has spread to the clan structure (circles at sept and hold levels etc.), that for the other clans it's limited to individuals within the warrior societies, corrupted by Shaido DF from the same societies.
The best we might have is a potential endgame attempt by Moridin to have the Aiel break away from Rand and his plans on the eve of TG. That attempt may have been made using Aviendha. If Moridin has a top WO among his pawns, he would know she was about to be sent, then that was sent to Rhuidean. Her weird encounter with Nakomi, her second set of visions may have been arranged (I'm far from convinced myself, but I don't see any good reason to discount the possibility... ). And now, if Bair is the DF, she'll soon be in the position required to seriously influence what will happen next. She could return with exactly the right interpretation the Shadow wanted the Aiel to make of that vision, and all the authority of a WO (in the sense that it's doubtful after Bair the WO keep sending one WO after another to further test the ter'angreal - Bair's experience is likely to be the final straw determining how the WO will interpret it all and make their decisions. It's hard to see how this will play out.. Bair will spend a lot of time there, the decisions at Merrilor could all be taken when she returns. It would be more obvious if she returned early enough to influence decisions about the Seanchan. If Bair confirmed Aviendha's future, learning that following a peace imposed by Rand they resume their conquest, win, destroy Tar Valon and the Asha'man, destroy the Aiel could influence Egwene, Elayne and even Rand about the Seanchan. It would put great pressure on Rand to give up on any idea of an alliance with Fortuona. And this would serve the Shadow, as I'm fairly convinced the alliance Demandred doesn't want to happen at any cost is the one between Rand and the Seanchan (the Shadow did have big plans to prevent Aes Sedai and Asha'man to be major players with Rand... Mesaana at the WT keeping the AS totally divided, and Taim at the BT, plans that have largely failed for the WT while Taim's success is still up in the air, but Mesaana's demise is way too recent for the Shadow to have a new plan in motion. However, we know Moridin seeks to prevent an alliance with the Seanchan, it was part of his orders to Graendal. I'm pretty convinced from Murandy is about to attack the Seanchan, strong of a supposed alliance with the BT and WT Roedran would announce after he returns from Merrilor.. an alliance with Taim and the remnants of the BA in truth. To cover it all up, he would just have to make a lot of noise at Merrilor about his conviction the Seanchan are about to invade him, then leave in a show of anger when Rand and the nations refuse to get involved in this, and privately claims the Seanchan are Mat's businness now, that he has gone to Ebou Dar, and he will be the one bringing them to an alliance soon. News a little while later that Murandy has attacked the Seanchan wouldn't worry anyone in those circumstances, they would just say "what an idiot".. when in fact it would Demandred crippling the Seanchan, stealing and turning to the Shadow the surviving damane, before he turns his attention on Rand).
This message last edited by DomA on 18/10/2012 at 07:16:04 PM
Misc observations from my latest re-read
14/10/2012 08:26:37 PM
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How does LTT know about Far Madding's history?
14/10/2012 08:29:13 PM
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Re: How does LTT know about Far Madding's history?
14/10/2012 09:23:24 PM
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Knowing the post Breaking history of the Guardians and speaking of the city as though he had persona
14/10/2012 09:56:55 PM
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How Stong was Gitara?
14/10/2012 08:34:43 PM
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So so stong. She had incredible stength.
14/10/2012 09:04:15 PM
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Degree of slowing is the same as how long they will live
14/10/2012 09:22:23 PM
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Re: Degree of slowing is the same as how long they will live
14/10/2012 09:36:19 PM
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Not in the mood to deal with you ... Go read the Ages section of 13th Depository
14/10/2012 09:53:14 PM
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Not interested in Linda's private theories.
15/10/2012 02:29:41 AM
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Not my problem if you are that lazy. All the quotes you want are nicely organized
15/10/2012 02:50:45 AM
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Problem is...
14/10/2012 11:52:00 PM
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Again, my point isn't about motivations for Elaida or Gitara ... that is clear
15/10/2012 12:07:49 AM
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Show me where in the books an adviser is selected by Tower authorities!
15/10/2012 02:58:19 AM
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Yet look what happens the minute a Stronger woman showed up
15/10/2012 03:19:18 AM
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Re: Yet look what happens the minute a Stronger woman showed up
15/10/2012 03:35:10 AM
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Yet Morgase herself states she didn't consider Elaida a friend
15/10/2012 03:45:45 AM
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How did Gareth Bryne get to stay Captain General, given his lack of respect to Aes Sedai?
15/10/2012 04:07:07 AM
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He was banging the queen
15/10/2012 04:19:24 AM
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And what Aes Sedai gave him permission to bang the queen?
15/10/2012 04:30:42 AM
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here ya go
15/10/2012 04:39:29 AM
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Re: Show me where in the books an adviser is selected by Tower authorities!
15/10/2012 10:38:16 AM
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Re: Again, my point isn't about motivations for Elaida or Gitara ... that is clear
15/10/2012 03:15:18 AM
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The thing is Elaida had no experience in the arena at all
15/10/2012 03:25:10 AM
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IT IS NOT THE TOWER'S DAMNED JOB! She had more than enough credentials for ANDOR
15/10/2012 03:45:15 AM
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Nope. Every other advisor we've seen has been sent from TV
15/10/2012 03:50:07 AM
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Those are not official advisers, those are ambassadors!
15/10/2012 04:17:51 AM
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So now you are saying that Elaida was a personal advisor not an envoy of the Tower?
15/10/2012 04:22:31 AM
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She didn't "land it". She took the job for herself...
15/10/2012 04:00:35 AM
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Actually every advisor we've seen except Elaida has been appointed
15/10/2012 04:11:39 AM
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You can bully someone into an act, not a twenty year relationship
15/10/2012 04:22:16 AM
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Not arguing that Morgase had a problem with her
15/10/2012 04:33:10 AM
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We know nothing of the sort.
15/10/2012 05:14:54 AM
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Prove that Elaida's post was not Tower sanctioned
15/10/2012 05:39:23 AM
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Re: Prove that Elaida's post was not Tower sanctioned
17/10/2012 04:15:37 AM
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Egwene said otherwise DomA,...
17/10/2012 05:33:01 AM
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And an answer to the rest of your "points"
15/10/2012 02:48:07 AM
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Again. I refer you to Linda's blog. The relevant quotes are there ... Enjoy
15/10/2012 02:52:03 AM
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The burden of proof is on you to make your points. There is nothing in the books.
15/10/2012 03:01:46 AM
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You mean the only way she could avoid become Queen was to flee?
15/10/2012 03:30:26 AM
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And never ever face discipline or punishment for fleeing? Outside the Tower, she was on her own.
15/10/2012 03:40:23 AM
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I'm not using her theory, I'm saying she posted all the damn quotes in one place
15/10/2012 03:57:00 AM
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You don't see how evading the Tower's authority for 10 years undermines YOUR position?
15/10/2012 05:21:29 AM
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Nope. It substantiates that the Tower will exert itself to ensure its Political standing
15/10/2012 05:41:33 AM
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Oh for the love of...! Here's the relevant quote:
15/10/2012 04:04:48 AM
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Okay, but that's still irrelevant to the Oath Rod & its cutoff period or method, as well as lifespan
15/10/2012 04:54:26 AM
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To quote you RTDB
15/10/2012 05:16:56 AM
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And that is probably the ONLY quote that wasn't on Linda's page *NM*
15/10/2012 04:55:33 AM
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How old was Lanfear?
14/10/2012 08:41:35 PM
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Re: How old was Lanfear?
14/10/2012 11:27:12 PM
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I couldn't find it
15/10/2012 12:22:43 AM
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It's in the Fires of Heaven, when Lanfear visits Rand and he remembers her as Mierin. *NM*
20/10/2012 04:19:09 AM
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Are the Seanchan prophesies false?
14/10/2012 08:43:55 PM
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I've only been saying no for years.
14/10/2012 09:21:43 PM
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Not the same thing
14/10/2012 09:44:43 PM
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Show me some damn PROOF already!!
15/10/2012 03:19:18 AM
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I believe DomA covered this in his post
15/10/2012 03:31:54 AM
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Illogic, arguments from (false) authority and now ad hominem attacks.
15/10/2012 03:46:49 AM
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I just don't see the point of an argument with someone who has already been proven wrong
15/10/2012 03:59:19 AM
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The frequently-confessing-ignorance, can't-keep-track-of-what-he-wrote ghostwriter, you mean.
15/10/2012 05:28:50 AM
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Touché ... But to DomA's point we'll likely get some resolution in AMoL *NM*
15/10/2012 05:53:14 AM
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Your argument is based on a faulty premise.
15/10/2012 08:11:19 PM
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That could also mean the same KC prophesies were is Seanchan before Luthair came along
16/10/2012 12:54:07 AM
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Of course there is truth...
14/10/2012 09:42:24 PM
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Didn't know Bsand had confirmed the corruption. Thanks for sharing
14/10/2012 10:02:40 PM
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Re: Didn't know Bsand had confirmed the corruption. Thanks for sharing
14/10/2012 10:23:17 PM
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Hmmm ...I like it! It is actually very similar to what Nynaeve does
14/10/2012 10:31:48 PM
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How do the Black Ajah not figure out who the others are?
14/10/2012 08:48:14 PM
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Who says they can't?
14/10/2012 09:23:11 PM
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True to a point
14/10/2012 10:00:01 PM
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Was Sheriam ranking? Would many of them have met her? Not everyone even gets to meet the SC.
15/10/2012 03:23:16 AM
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Re: Was Sheriam ranking? Would many of them have met her? Not everyone even gets to meet the SC.
15/10/2012 03:52:39 AM
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But isn't it interesting that Sheriam and Galina, both young and strong are on the SC?
15/10/2012 04:06:38 AM
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Galina isn't young. *NM*
17/10/2012 03:24:30 AM
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Yes she is
17/10/2012 03:46:39 PM
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85 years being BA, 90 years as a sister does not qualify her as a "young AS"
18/10/2012 05:35:33 PM
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She is not dissimilar to Sheriam when she made her rise IMO
18/10/2012 06:53:54 PM
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You mean the SC?
14/10/2012 10:47:31 PM
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No others meet as well
14/10/2012 11:01:21 PM
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Re: No others meet as well
14/10/2012 11:36:50 PM
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Yet rank and file BA have methods of communicating
15/10/2012 12:14:36 AM
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Re: Yet rank and file BA have methods of communicating
15/10/2012 03:26:59 AM
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I concede that the rank and file likely don't meet in large groups
15/10/2012 04:54:04 AM
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Re: I concede that the rank and file likely don't meet in large groups
15/10/2012 02:28:45 PM
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I agree that RJ probably had some thing up his sleeve
15/10/2012 03:01:20 PM
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Re: I agree that RJ probably had some thing up his sleeve
15/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
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I have a different opinion of Delana
16/10/2012 01:20:32 AM
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Re: I have a different opinion of Delana
16/10/2012 11:51:34 PM
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Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 02:55:19 AM
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Re: Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 03:40:54 PM
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Give the sign to a woman and see how she reacts
18/10/2012 06:57:38 PM
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Re: Give the sign to a woman and see how she reacts
18/10/2012 07:26:56 PM
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Not a good plan, I'll give you that
18/10/2012 07:37:45 PM
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Re: Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 04:59:25 PM
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Not conclusive ... in fact the whole bit is vague ... I wonder if RJ would have given us more detail
18/10/2012 07:23:30 PM
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Surely, in part, this is how Verin figured out who the Black Ajah was
15/10/2012 05:10:25 PM
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Is there a Dark Friend WO?
14/10/2012 08:51:16 PM
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I'd like to see more discussion on this; I'm curious as well
18/10/2012 12:44:35 AM
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Just a note about Bair
18/10/2012 07:53:45 AM
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The traps were defeated by Elza before freed Semirhage
18/10/2012 02:53:17 PM
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Re: The traps were defeated by Elza before freed Semirhage
18/10/2012 07:06:13 PM
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Sorilea would have not been able to disarm Cadsuane's wards. Both inverted and likely too strong
18/10/2012 07:35:22 PM
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No, she would not have been able to (nor even see them to report about them)
18/10/2012 09:32:38 PM
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Verin's goal was to dig out the BA. A WO would have been nothing more than a momentary
19/10/2012 04:11:51 AM
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I don't see how it could be possible
23/10/2012 09:31:51 PM
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It's certainly possible, though it might contribute to making it rather rare
23/10/2012 10:55:07 PM
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good point especially when you consider the Aiel view on pain and death
25/10/2012 06:14:40 PM
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Galad and Gaywn ... Channlers?
14/10/2012 10:47:55 PM
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Re: Galad and Gaywn ... Channlers?
14/10/2012 11:36:25 PM
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Totally pointless, just looking to spark some conversation on the board!
15/10/2012 12:23:34 AM
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But how often in real life does that happen? Alanis Morissette taught us about death row pardons *NM*
17/10/2012 12:27:45 AM
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