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there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... Onarishma Send a noteboard - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM
Flow affinity and Talent are different things. You are trying to play it both ways. You claim Androl has a Talent, but no one else (despite tons of evidence) does ... regardless or that you STILL CAN'T determine how strong a channeler is based on a gateway's size. There are OBVIOUSLY people who can create larger ones than their strength indicates they should be able to and people with plenty of strength who struggle with it. It doesn't matter WHY ... it exists therefore it makes it impossible to judge strength from a gateway.

Androl is the proof that the Talent trumps strength. Asmodean didn't need to lie, we have the example right here in the text showing us that strength is not the key factor.

Why is this so difficult to accept?


I.e. something that runs through your fingers.

A TALENT is the ability to manipulate a weave.
Being able to use a weave does not mean you have the ability to manipulate it. Which means you do not have to have TALENT to perform it.

There is a CONSISTENT statement by ALL witnesses that except in the case of those with TALENT (Androl being the only person identified) that Gateway size is directly proportional to strength. There is evidence that strength in a power affects the effect of simple weaves. Simple weaves defined as those using one power or possible a limited inclusion of a second. It is possible I am extrapolating too far BUT The Glossary in the EotW states "While Spirit was found equally in men and women, great ability with Earth and/or Fire was found much more often among men, with Water and/or Air among women" It's possible that "great ability" in Spirit was found equally between the sexes and not general ability but considering it was a generalization in the first place and that there has been NO mention of ANYONE being strong in Spirit I'm pretty sure I am correct. I suggest that in simple weaves strength in Spirit equals effectiveness in the weave and that strength in Spirit is directly proportional to the volume of the OP you can hold. Even if you want to argue that Androl and Berowin are strong in Spirit that could fit with the text but arguing that EVERYONE is deficient in "Talent" is ridiculous when observation of the majority of ALL channelers dictates otherwise. Particularly among women who can sense each other's actual strength and see the size of the Gateway produced at the same time.

You have four examples.

1. Androl who no one disputes has a Talent.

2. Reanne who I do dispute no one else has commented on her Gateway size being unusual. And our observation is of a location she has visited often. More importantly Reanne's strength is conjecture so expectations about her gateway size is also conjecture. Though from my memory she is among those strong enough to be AS. As old as she is she might have left the Tower when her strength was considered weak but she might be "average" for today's AS.

3. Aviendha who says flat out that it is a duplicate weave issue

4. Flinn who I need a quote on(I can't find the scene you've been referring to) but obviously the comment didn't stick out as unusual at the time like Androl's blatant oddity. besides that in PoD Flinn is reported as having the largest Gateway of those present.

"Ducking low on Tai’daishar’s neck, Rand heeled the gelding through the largest Gateway. Flinn’s as it happened,..." Gathering Clouds - POD

So not only does he know which one is Flinn's and seeing as they are about to enter a potentially dangerous area they are most likely holding as much of the power as possible. He should be able to tell Flinn's strength and if that Gateway is what he expects.

So out of four only one of them is shown to have a Talent or lack thereof. No one else has been noted in ANY way as being deficient or overly proficient.

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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2887 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1460 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1106 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1249 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1400 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1244 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1125 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1166 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1145 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1263 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 937 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1146 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1172 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1253 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1337 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1145 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 587 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1360 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1123 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1304 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1060 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1147 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1180 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1321 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1128 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1163 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1176 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1143 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1222 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1098 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1108 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1169 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1000 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1144 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1372 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1063 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1141 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1080 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1121 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1065 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1183 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1015 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1219 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1147 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1155 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1065 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1036 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1024 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1066 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 929 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 986 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1100 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 954 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1113 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 931 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1051 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1121 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1095 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1124 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1295 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1084 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1005 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 850 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1119 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1044 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1071 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1091 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1057 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1061 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1012 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1048 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 925 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1091 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 992 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1034 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1026 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1035 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1006 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1066 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1065 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1478 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1039 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1049 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1025 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1080 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 467 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1002 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1042 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1143 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1126 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1004 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 769 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1196 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1041 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1034 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1151 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1077 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1087 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1037 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1064 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1114 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 939 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 913 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1010 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1074 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1059 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 683 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1025 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1172 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1002 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1136 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1058 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1029 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1198 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 956 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1453 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1009 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1156 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1114 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1004 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1268 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1068 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1182 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1062 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 948 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1089 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1170 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1101 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1192 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1126 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1145 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 575 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1211 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1126 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1118 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1095 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1067 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1133 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1054 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 930 Views

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