Re: I agree that RJ probably had some thing up his sleeve
DomA Send a noteboard - 15/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
He always seemed to have things like this worked out. As the original post indicated, these where just some random observations that occurred to me during a re-read. As I read Verin's BA tale it struck me that most BA women could have pretty easily been able to figure each others out based on a few factors like strength and mystery instruction etc .... to your point it doesn't feel as though we got the whole story from Alviarin's POVs.
I also think Verin's confession lacked juicy details RJ would likely have given us about the BA (it's also part of the "resolution" to the BA organization. Verin's scene and Alviarin pre-purge scenes were his last opportunities to reveal whatever he intended to reveal about them.. after that they're pretty much Dreadlords on the run) . I don't think he would have overlooked giving us clearer hints of Verin's and Sheriam's ranking once exposed, for example. It was handled a bit poorly, or at least disappointingly.
And yeah, there sure was a big counter POV from Alviarin missing from the time of the purge. The whole "SH's hound" arc went down the drain. It's a pity, we have no idea where Alviarin stands now, after Mesaana's downfall. Too bad, because she was one of the cooler, more understated villains and we had followed her through the whole series.
The only thing about her that I see as a possible negative for SC membership is her age to membership ratio.
It's not so different from Demandred having served the DO but a few years compared to Ishamael, Graendal, Lanfear having served him for a great many decades, but rising spectacularly.
I suspect Verin's craftiness and intelligence would be a major factor.
We do not know how members of the SC are chosen. The way she spoke of having been picked in the mass of the BA, it sounds like Ishamael was in a spring cleaning mood and raised Alviarin from the rank-and-file the strongest White available (someone of cool logic would have suited his needs at the time, he was furious of the SC's too great sense of "initiative". Of course given who he was, Elan Morin would have affinities to Whites serving the Shadow at any given time), but of course that would have been exceptional.
We know only two women on the council knew Alviarin headed it. We also know only Alviarin as Head knew the names of every BA. My guess is that the Head picks a new council member as an old one dies (naturally, or because the council decided it...).
It's just a hunch, but Alviarin, a logician, seems to put a lot of attention on the strict avoidance of patterns (which of course would be a clue to some that the BA was run by a White!). Curiously, Talene as a high ranking Green Sitter wasn't on the council. It suggests perhaps none of the Black Sitters were part of the SC, that Alviarin preferred to avoid that (in part not to share power, in part because it would introduce an obvious pattern to pick high standing sisters for high standing BA positions). The SC is likely to consist of high and low sisters, younger and older, and to be distributed unevenly among the Ajah.
Alviarin's predecessor seems to have lost a few high ranking members, which she had used in the failed hunt. Alviarin likely had to replace a few (like she's had to replace Galina recently).
I do, however, think she was a horrible choice as a SC member!
Yes, but Sheriam did enjoy a good reputation in the WT (and even more in her Salidar days, until Aran'gar arrived and ruined her) and there was a shortage of influential Blues as they lost so many members in the last two decades.
Sheriam's big mouth is a bit exagerrated. She's gossipy, but she sure managed to hide she was BA... as for her commitment, this is not something the BA would really know about, Sheriam was highly ambitious and would carefully have hidden that (just as she did with Mesaana). She wasn't adverse to radical actions to position herself, from what she said.
The advantages of women like Alviarin, Sheriam, Verin, Galina is that they would be women who mostly live at the Tower. That's something the BA would look for in council members (like the Ajah do in Sitters).
I suspect Delana was also SC.
I very much doubt it. Delana was thoroughly unambitious, and from her one POV (when Aran'gar arrives), she was something of a fool who seemed to genuinely be happy of her new nomination as
Gray Sitter, unaware she was perfectly "unsuitable" for the position, and she got this big reality check when Aran'gar arrived to claim her. She was worse than Sheriam, she's one of those who seemed to be BA "to be naughty" or because she was bored. Moridin has picked a Sitter for Aran'gar, that doesn't mean Delana was also high ranking in the BA. Interestingly, he picked the least competent Sitter (Moria had far more clout). It's also obvious Aran'gar was told about Sheriam, but Sheriam's entourage wasn't a good place for Halima. Moria would have been another choice, but it seems Moridin kept Moria for himself (in the sense that she was probably one of his hidden informers in Salidar) and beside, it wasn't a good idea for Halima to be around Blues, given her cover story with Cabriana.
I wonder at times why Liandrin's group was formed without direct supervision from the SC, they are the only major group of BA that has been formed and they were sent out with a young hot headed leader ... Seems like an epic fail,waiting to happen ... and it was!
Liandrin's group featured many "lose cannons". Alviarin hates to lose Black sisters. It really looks like she picked a group of sisters she was not all that sad to lose to give to Be'lal. Liandrin, for instance, was a liability because Egwene/Nyaneve/Elayne had survived (Verin probably had to forewarn Alviarin she was returning to the WT from Falme with those three), and the whole way these 13 were ordered to raid the vaults (when if the BA wants to "borrow" small ter'angreal, it could have been done far more discreetely) speaks of meddling from Mesaana: she couldn't stop Be'lal from getting 13 BA, but she could expose them as BA, and prevent Be'lal from being able to send some back to TV later to meddle in her affairs, or to start competing with her by using these BA near rulers etc. Be'lal obviously didn't know Mesaana was in the Tower.
Misc observations from my latest re-read
14/10/2012 08:26:37 PM
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How does LTT know about Far Madding's history?
14/10/2012 08:29:13 PM
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Re: How does LTT know about Far Madding's history?
14/10/2012 09:23:24 PM
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Knowing the post Breaking history of the Guardians and speaking of the city as though he had persona
14/10/2012 09:56:55 PM
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How Stong was Gitara?
14/10/2012 08:34:43 PM
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So so stong. She had incredible stength.
14/10/2012 09:04:15 PM
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Degree of slowing is the same as how long they will live
14/10/2012 09:22:23 PM
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Re: Degree of slowing is the same as how long they will live
14/10/2012 09:36:19 PM
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Not in the mood to deal with you ... Go read the Ages section of 13th Depository
14/10/2012 09:53:14 PM
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Not interested in Linda's private theories.
15/10/2012 02:29:41 AM
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Not my problem if you are that lazy. All the quotes you want are nicely organized
15/10/2012 02:50:45 AM
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Problem is...
14/10/2012 11:52:00 PM
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Again, my point isn't about motivations for Elaida or Gitara ... that is clear
15/10/2012 12:07:49 AM
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Show me where in the books an adviser is selected by Tower authorities!
15/10/2012 02:58:19 AM
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Yet look what happens the minute a Stronger woman showed up
15/10/2012 03:19:18 AM
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Re: Yet look what happens the minute a Stronger woman showed up
15/10/2012 03:35:10 AM
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Yet Morgase herself states she didn't consider Elaida a friend
15/10/2012 03:45:45 AM
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How did Gareth Bryne get to stay Captain General, given his lack of respect to Aes Sedai?
15/10/2012 04:07:07 AM
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He was banging the queen
15/10/2012 04:19:24 AM
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And what Aes Sedai gave him permission to bang the queen?
15/10/2012 04:30:42 AM
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here ya go
15/10/2012 04:39:29 AM
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Re: Show me where in the books an adviser is selected by Tower authorities!
15/10/2012 10:38:16 AM
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Re: Again, my point isn't about motivations for Elaida or Gitara ... that is clear
15/10/2012 03:15:18 AM
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The thing is Elaida had no experience in the arena at all
15/10/2012 03:25:10 AM
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IT IS NOT THE TOWER'S DAMNED JOB! She had more than enough credentials for ANDOR
15/10/2012 03:45:15 AM
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Nope. Every other advisor we've seen has been sent from TV
15/10/2012 03:50:07 AM
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Those are not official advisers, those are ambassadors!
15/10/2012 04:17:51 AM
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So now you are saying that Elaida was a personal advisor not an envoy of the Tower?
15/10/2012 04:22:31 AM
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She didn't "land it". She took the job for herself...
15/10/2012 04:00:35 AM
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Actually every advisor we've seen except Elaida has been appointed
15/10/2012 04:11:39 AM
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You can bully someone into an act, not a twenty year relationship
15/10/2012 04:22:16 AM
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Not arguing that Morgase had a problem with her
15/10/2012 04:33:10 AM
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We know nothing of the sort.
15/10/2012 05:14:54 AM
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Prove that Elaida's post was not Tower sanctioned
15/10/2012 05:39:23 AM
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Re: Prove that Elaida's post was not Tower sanctioned
17/10/2012 04:15:37 AM
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Egwene said otherwise DomA,...
17/10/2012 05:33:01 AM
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And an answer to the rest of your "points"
15/10/2012 02:48:07 AM
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Again. I refer you to Linda's blog. The relevant quotes are there ... Enjoy
15/10/2012 02:52:03 AM
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The burden of proof is on you to make your points. There is nothing in the books.
15/10/2012 03:01:46 AM
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You mean the only way she could avoid become Queen was to flee?
15/10/2012 03:30:26 AM
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And never ever face discipline or punishment for fleeing? Outside the Tower, she was on her own.
15/10/2012 03:40:23 AM
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I'm not using her theory, I'm saying she posted all the damn quotes in one place
15/10/2012 03:57:00 AM
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You don't see how evading the Tower's authority for 10 years undermines YOUR position?
15/10/2012 05:21:29 AM
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Nope. It substantiates that the Tower will exert itself to ensure its Political standing
15/10/2012 05:41:33 AM
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Oh for the love of...! Here's the relevant quote:
15/10/2012 04:04:48 AM
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Okay, but that's still irrelevant to the Oath Rod & its cutoff period or method, as well as lifespan
15/10/2012 04:54:26 AM
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To quote you RTDB
15/10/2012 05:16:56 AM
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And that is probably the ONLY quote that wasn't on Linda's page *NM*
15/10/2012 04:55:33 AM
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How old was Lanfear?
14/10/2012 08:41:35 PM
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Re: How old was Lanfear?
14/10/2012 11:27:12 PM
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I couldn't find it
15/10/2012 12:22:43 AM
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It's in the Fires of Heaven, when Lanfear visits Rand and he remembers her as Mierin. *NM*
20/10/2012 04:19:09 AM
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Are the Seanchan prophesies false?
14/10/2012 08:43:55 PM
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I've only been saying no for years.
14/10/2012 09:21:43 PM
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Not the same thing
14/10/2012 09:44:43 PM
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Show me some damn PROOF already!!
15/10/2012 03:19:18 AM
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I believe DomA covered this in his post
15/10/2012 03:31:54 AM
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Illogic, arguments from (false) authority and now ad hominem attacks.
15/10/2012 03:46:49 AM
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I just don't see the point of an argument with someone who has already been proven wrong
15/10/2012 03:59:19 AM
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The frequently-confessing-ignorance, can't-keep-track-of-what-he-wrote ghostwriter, you mean.
15/10/2012 05:28:50 AM
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Touché ... But to DomA's point we'll likely get some resolution in AMoL *NM*
15/10/2012 05:53:14 AM
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Your argument is based on a faulty premise.
15/10/2012 08:11:19 PM
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That could also mean the same KC prophesies were is Seanchan before Luthair came along
16/10/2012 12:54:07 AM
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Of course there is truth...
14/10/2012 09:42:24 PM
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Didn't know Bsand had confirmed the corruption. Thanks for sharing
14/10/2012 10:02:40 PM
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Re: Didn't know Bsand had confirmed the corruption. Thanks for sharing
14/10/2012 10:23:17 PM
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Hmmm ...I like it! It is actually very similar to what Nynaeve does
14/10/2012 10:31:48 PM
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How do the Black Ajah not figure out who the others are?
14/10/2012 08:48:14 PM
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Who says they can't?
14/10/2012 09:23:11 PM
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True to a point
14/10/2012 10:00:01 PM
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Was Sheriam ranking? Would many of them have met her? Not everyone even gets to meet the SC.
15/10/2012 03:23:16 AM
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Re: Was Sheriam ranking? Would many of them have met her? Not everyone even gets to meet the SC.
15/10/2012 03:52:39 AM
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But isn't it interesting that Sheriam and Galina, both young and strong are on the SC?
15/10/2012 04:06:38 AM
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Galina isn't young. *NM*
17/10/2012 03:24:30 AM
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Yes she is
17/10/2012 03:46:39 PM
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85 years being BA, 90 years as a sister does not qualify her as a "young AS"
18/10/2012 05:35:33 PM
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She is not dissimilar to Sheriam when she made her rise IMO
18/10/2012 06:53:54 PM
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You mean the SC?
14/10/2012 10:47:31 PM
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No others meet as well
14/10/2012 11:01:21 PM
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Re: No others meet as well
14/10/2012 11:36:50 PM
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Yet rank and file BA have methods of communicating
15/10/2012 12:14:36 AM
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Re: Yet rank and file BA have methods of communicating
15/10/2012 03:26:59 AM
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I concede that the rank and file likely don't meet in large groups
15/10/2012 04:54:04 AM
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Re: I concede that the rank and file likely don't meet in large groups
15/10/2012 02:28:45 PM
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I agree that RJ probably had some thing up his sleeve
15/10/2012 03:01:20 PM
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Re: I agree that RJ probably had some thing up his sleeve
15/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
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I have a different opinion of Delana
16/10/2012 01:20:32 AM
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Re: I have a different opinion of Delana
16/10/2012 11:51:34 PM
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Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 02:55:19 AM
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Re: Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 03:40:54 PM
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Give the sign to a woman and see how she reacts
18/10/2012 06:57:38 PM
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Re: Give the sign to a woman and see how she reacts
18/10/2012 07:26:56 PM
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Not a good plan, I'll give you that
18/10/2012 07:37:45 PM
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Re: Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 04:59:25 PM
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Not conclusive ... in fact the whole bit is vague ... I wonder if RJ would have given us more detail
18/10/2012 07:23:30 PM
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Surely, in part, this is how Verin figured out who the Black Ajah was
15/10/2012 05:10:25 PM
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Is there a Dark Friend WO?
14/10/2012 08:51:16 PM
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I'd like to see more discussion on this; I'm curious as well
18/10/2012 12:44:35 AM
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Just a note about Bair
18/10/2012 07:53:45 AM
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The traps were defeated by Elza before freed Semirhage
18/10/2012 02:53:17 PM
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Re: The traps were defeated by Elza before freed Semirhage
18/10/2012 07:06:13 PM
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Sorilea would have not been able to disarm Cadsuane's wards. Both inverted and likely too strong
18/10/2012 07:35:22 PM
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No, she would not have been able to (nor even see them to report about them)
18/10/2012 09:32:38 PM
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Verin's goal was to dig out the BA. A WO would have been nothing more than a momentary
19/10/2012 04:11:51 AM
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I don't see how it could be possible
23/10/2012 09:31:51 PM
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It's certainly possible, though it might contribute to making it rather rare
23/10/2012 10:55:07 PM
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good point especially when you consider the Aiel view on pain and death
25/10/2012 06:14:40 PM
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Galad and Gaywn ... Channlers?
14/10/2012 10:47:55 PM
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Re: Galad and Gaywn ... Channlers?
14/10/2012 11:36:25 PM
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Totally pointless, just looking to spark some conversation on the board!
15/10/2012 12:23:34 AM
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But how often in real life does that happen? Alanis Morissette taught us about death row pardons *NM*
17/10/2012 12:27:45 AM
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