Re: I concede that the rank and file likely don't meet in large groups
DomA Send a noteboard - 15/10/2012 02:28:45 PM
The passage I was thinking of was actually in reference to the SC not the general BA.
But the even being in a room with a hooded SC group is telling. Let's say Katerine is called in to meet with the SC ... they are all hooded. Do you think she would miss Galina in that group? As far as we know there are maybe a dozen or so women in her Strength category or above. At the very least Katerine knows one of those few women is BA. From there it wouldn't take much to figure out which one ... especially if she starts getting instruction to push Galina forward for a new role or some such.
Verin didn't need to be SC for her to have managed the feat she did... she just needed to figure out ways around her new Oaths.
But the even being in a room with a hooded SC group is telling. Let's say Katerine is called in to meet with the SC ... they are all hooded. Do you think she would miss Galina in that group? As far as we know there are maybe a dozen or so women in her Strength category or above. At the very least Katerine knows one of those few women is BA. From there it wouldn't take much to figure out which one ... especially if she starts getting instruction to push Galina forward for a new role or some such.
Verin didn't need to be SC for her to have managed the feat she did... she just needed to figure out ways around her new Oaths.
Verin didn't need to be a member of the SC to work to identify sisters, but she's pretty old and given her other goals (of learning as much as she could of the DO's plans, from the Forsaken etc.), it's a position she would have made everything she could to obtain, and given how many times she was involved without raising suspicion (from Alviarin), I suspect she was very high ranking indeed. Next to Galina in rank is certainly a possibility, she seemed to know Alviarin was the leader of the SC. Alviarin brought her to Fal Dara where she's the BA who got close to Siuan/Moiraine there, she was the one who disappeared to tail Rand, who brought back the Horn to the WT, who let the BA know about Siuan's hunt, she was let again be in Rand's entourage (and decided at a crucial point she had to disappear, it speaks of her being known to the Forsaken and their spy etc.). That she was Alviarin's most trusted agent and one of the two women she could speak to openly as leader of the SC would make a lot of sense. More sense than if Verin is only a rank-and-file who gets written orders but seems to meddle of her own initiative a whole lot. In her scene with Egwene, Verin alludes to a debate about letting her or not give notes to Egwene about the 13 BA who went to Tear, and deciding she had no choice. I'm pretty sure the SC doesn't debate things with rank-and-file, that this was a debate among the SC Verin was part of.
I think we've seen the SC in action on screen only once in the series (well that and their capture of Tamra, but for this we know only Galina was involved, and the Tower Coup where we saw mostly Alviarin/Sheriam/Galina), and it's in the debate about dwindling that went on for years - the top dividing debate among AS - where they appeared to work in coordination.... three women we know were involved personally where Alviarin, Verin and Sheriam.. and unknown Reds with whom Sheriam was nearly coming to shouting matches. The whole ploy would have been far easier to organize among SC members than by messages sent by rank-and-file.
For Sheriam it's an implication she made in her POV that she strived for a high rank by ambition. Her strength, her key position, the fact she remained mostly in the WT, had the trust and friendship of the Amyrlin and the fact she was a very high ranking Blue would make her a likely candidate to enter the council. In the Tower Coup, Sheriam played a key role, pretending to fight, and organizing the escape of many novices and most of the Accepted. She was likely still a junior member, but I think she's one of those BA who knew a lot of the actual plans (most of the rank-and-file BA don't seem to have known much about what truly happened with the Tower Coup).
As for the meetings, I don't debate the fact they could narrow down and puzzle out who the members were based on strength, I just find it fairly obvious RJ would not have overlooked this and maniacal about such details as he was, he no doubt conceived of a trick they used. It would be more profitable to discuss how they possibly did that then debate whether this was a huge mistake by RJ (which seems to be your point).
Brandon pretty much deprived us of whatever "BA resolution" RJ had in mind to offer by failing to continue Alviarin's storyline. For a few books, RJ was starting to reveal internal details about the BA, knowing their downfall was coming and how. At the end, Alviarin was on to Talene and the hunters, and getting close to Egwene. She appeared in a chapter written or outlined by RJ, then nothing. We'll probably have to wait for the Encyclopedia to discover many of the details concerning the organization that RJ could have used in Alviarin's last pre-purge POVs. RJ'S method to start with the core then work outward by adding layers seems to have disserved us with Egwene's storyline, especially with the BA hunt. We got the core more or less intact, without the missing layers (counter POV and so on) RJ would have worked on at a later stage.
This message last edited by DomA on 15/10/2012 at 02:32:36 PM
Misc observations from my latest re-read
14/10/2012 08:26:37 PM
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How does LTT know about Far Madding's history?
14/10/2012 08:29:13 PM
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Re: How does LTT know about Far Madding's history?
14/10/2012 09:23:24 PM
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Knowing the post Breaking history of the Guardians and speaking of the city as though he had persona
14/10/2012 09:56:55 PM
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How Stong was Gitara?
14/10/2012 08:34:43 PM
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So so stong. She had incredible stength.
14/10/2012 09:04:15 PM
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Degree of slowing is the same as how long they will live
14/10/2012 09:22:23 PM
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Re: Degree of slowing is the same as how long they will live
14/10/2012 09:36:19 PM
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Not in the mood to deal with you ... Go read the Ages section of 13th Depository
14/10/2012 09:53:14 PM
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Not interested in Linda's private theories.
15/10/2012 02:29:41 AM
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Not my problem if you are that lazy. All the quotes you want are nicely organized
15/10/2012 02:50:45 AM
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Problem is...
14/10/2012 11:52:00 PM
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Again, my point isn't about motivations for Elaida or Gitara ... that is clear
15/10/2012 12:07:49 AM
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Show me where in the books an adviser is selected by Tower authorities!
15/10/2012 02:58:19 AM
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Yet look what happens the minute a Stronger woman showed up
15/10/2012 03:19:18 AM
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Re: Yet look what happens the minute a Stronger woman showed up
15/10/2012 03:35:10 AM
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Yet Morgase herself states she didn't consider Elaida a friend
15/10/2012 03:45:45 AM
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How did Gareth Bryne get to stay Captain General, given his lack of respect to Aes Sedai?
15/10/2012 04:07:07 AM
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He was banging the queen
15/10/2012 04:19:24 AM
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And what Aes Sedai gave him permission to bang the queen?
15/10/2012 04:30:42 AM
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here ya go
15/10/2012 04:39:29 AM
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Re: Show me where in the books an adviser is selected by Tower authorities!
15/10/2012 10:38:16 AM
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Re: Again, my point isn't about motivations for Elaida or Gitara ... that is clear
15/10/2012 03:15:18 AM
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The thing is Elaida had no experience in the arena at all
15/10/2012 03:25:10 AM
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IT IS NOT THE TOWER'S DAMNED JOB! She had more than enough credentials for ANDOR
15/10/2012 03:45:15 AM
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Nope. Every other advisor we've seen has been sent from TV
15/10/2012 03:50:07 AM
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Those are not official advisers, those are ambassadors!
15/10/2012 04:17:51 AM
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So now you are saying that Elaida was a personal advisor not an envoy of the Tower?
15/10/2012 04:22:31 AM
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She didn't "land it". She took the job for herself...
15/10/2012 04:00:35 AM
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Actually every advisor we've seen except Elaida has been appointed
15/10/2012 04:11:39 AM
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You can bully someone into an act, not a twenty year relationship
15/10/2012 04:22:16 AM
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Not arguing that Morgase had a problem with her
15/10/2012 04:33:10 AM
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We know nothing of the sort.
15/10/2012 05:14:54 AM
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Prove that Elaida's post was not Tower sanctioned
15/10/2012 05:39:23 AM
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Re: Prove that Elaida's post was not Tower sanctioned
17/10/2012 04:15:37 AM
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Egwene said otherwise DomA,...
17/10/2012 05:33:01 AM
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And an answer to the rest of your "points"
15/10/2012 02:48:07 AM
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Again. I refer you to Linda's blog. The relevant quotes are there ... Enjoy
15/10/2012 02:52:03 AM
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The burden of proof is on you to make your points. There is nothing in the books.
15/10/2012 03:01:46 AM
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You mean the only way she could avoid become Queen was to flee?
15/10/2012 03:30:26 AM
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And never ever face discipline or punishment for fleeing? Outside the Tower, she was on her own.
15/10/2012 03:40:23 AM
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I'm not using her theory, I'm saying she posted all the damn quotes in one place
15/10/2012 03:57:00 AM
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You don't see how evading the Tower's authority for 10 years undermines YOUR position?
15/10/2012 05:21:29 AM
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Nope. It substantiates that the Tower will exert itself to ensure its Political standing
15/10/2012 05:41:33 AM
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Oh for the love of...! Here's the relevant quote:
15/10/2012 04:04:48 AM
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Okay, but that's still irrelevant to the Oath Rod & its cutoff period or method, as well as lifespan
15/10/2012 04:54:26 AM
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To quote you RTDB
15/10/2012 05:16:56 AM
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And that is probably the ONLY quote that wasn't on Linda's page *NM*
15/10/2012 04:55:33 AM
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How old was Lanfear?
14/10/2012 08:41:35 PM
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Re: How old was Lanfear?
14/10/2012 11:27:12 PM
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I couldn't find it
15/10/2012 12:22:43 AM
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It's in the Fires of Heaven, when Lanfear visits Rand and he remembers her as Mierin. *NM*
20/10/2012 04:19:09 AM
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Are the Seanchan prophesies false?
14/10/2012 08:43:55 PM
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I've only been saying no for years.
14/10/2012 09:21:43 PM
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Not the same thing
14/10/2012 09:44:43 PM
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Show me some damn PROOF already!!
15/10/2012 03:19:18 AM
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I believe DomA covered this in his post
15/10/2012 03:31:54 AM
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Illogic, arguments from (false) authority and now ad hominem attacks.
15/10/2012 03:46:49 AM
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I just don't see the point of an argument with someone who has already been proven wrong
15/10/2012 03:59:19 AM
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The frequently-confessing-ignorance, can't-keep-track-of-what-he-wrote ghostwriter, you mean.
15/10/2012 05:28:50 AM
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Touché ... But to DomA's point we'll likely get some resolution in AMoL *NM*
15/10/2012 05:53:14 AM
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Your argument is based on a faulty premise.
15/10/2012 08:11:19 PM
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That could also mean the same KC prophesies were is Seanchan before Luthair came along
16/10/2012 12:54:07 AM
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Of course there is truth...
14/10/2012 09:42:24 PM
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Didn't know Bsand had confirmed the corruption. Thanks for sharing
14/10/2012 10:02:40 PM
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Re: Didn't know Bsand had confirmed the corruption. Thanks for sharing
14/10/2012 10:23:17 PM
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Hmmm ...I like it! It is actually very similar to what Nynaeve does
14/10/2012 10:31:48 PM
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How do the Black Ajah not figure out who the others are?
14/10/2012 08:48:14 PM
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Who says they can't?
14/10/2012 09:23:11 PM
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True to a point
14/10/2012 10:00:01 PM
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Was Sheriam ranking? Would many of them have met her? Not everyone even gets to meet the SC.
15/10/2012 03:23:16 AM
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Re: Was Sheriam ranking? Would many of them have met her? Not everyone even gets to meet the SC.
15/10/2012 03:52:39 AM
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But isn't it interesting that Sheriam and Galina, both young and strong are on the SC?
15/10/2012 04:06:38 AM
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Galina isn't young. *NM*
17/10/2012 03:24:30 AM
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Yes she is
17/10/2012 03:46:39 PM
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85 years being BA, 90 years as a sister does not qualify her as a "young AS"
18/10/2012 05:35:33 PM
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She is not dissimilar to Sheriam when she made her rise IMO
18/10/2012 06:53:54 PM
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You mean the SC?
14/10/2012 10:47:31 PM
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No others meet as well
14/10/2012 11:01:21 PM
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Re: No others meet as well
14/10/2012 11:36:50 PM
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Yet rank and file BA have methods of communicating
15/10/2012 12:14:36 AM
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Re: Yet rank and file BA have methods of communicating
15/10/2012 03:26:59 AM
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I concede that the rank and file likely don't meet in large groups
15/10/2012 04:54:04 AM
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Re: I concede that the rank and file likely don't meet in large groups
15/10/2012 02:28:45 PM
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I agree that RJ probably had some thing up his sleeve
15/10/2012 03:01:20 PM
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Re: I agree that RJ probably had some thing up his sleeve
15/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
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I have a different opinion of Delana
16/10/2012 01:20:32 AM
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Re: I have a different opinion of Delana
16/10/2012 11:51:34 PM
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Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 02:55:19 AM
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Re: Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 03:40:54 PM
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Give the sign to a woman and see how she reacts
18/10/2012 06:57:38 PM
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Re: Give the sign to a woman and see how she reacts
18/10/2012 07:26:56 PM
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Not a good plan, I'll give you that
18/10/2012 07:37:45 PM
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Re: Egwene only notes Alviarin as the Head. Verin may not have even mentioned or know who was SC
18/10/2012 04:59:25 PM
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Not conclusive ... in fact the whole bit is vague ... I wonder if RJ would have given us more detail
18/10/2012 07:23:30 PM
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Surely, in part, this is how Verin figured out who the Black Ajah was
15/10/2012 05:10:25 PM
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Is there a Dark Friend WO?
14/10/2012 08:51:16 PM
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I'd like to see more discussion on this; I'm curious as well
18/10/2012 12:44:35 AM
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Just a note about Bair
18/10/2012 07:53:45 AM
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The traps were defeated by Elza before freed Semirhage
18/10/2012 02:53:17 PM
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Re: The traps were defeated by Elza before freed Semirhage
18/10/2012 07:06:13 PM
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Sorilea would have not been able to disarm Cadsuane's wards. Both inverted and likely too strong
18/10/2012 07:35:22 PM
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No, she would not have been able to (nor even see them to report about them)
18/10/2012 09:32:38 PM
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Verin's goal was to dig out the BA. A WO would have been nothing more than a momentary
19/10/2012 04:11:51 AM
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I don't see how it could be possible
23/10/2012 09:31:51 PM
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It's certainly possible, though it might contribute to making it rather rare
23/10/2012 10:55:07 PM
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good point especially when you consider the Aiel view on pain and death
25/10/2012 06:14:40 PM
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Galad and Gaywn ... Channlers?
14/10/2012 10:47:55 PM
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Re: Galad and Gaywn ... Channlers?
14/10/2012 11:36:25 PM
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Totally pointless, just looking to spark some conversation on the board!
15/10/2012 12:23:34 AM
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But how often in real life does that happen? Alanis Morissette taught us about death row pardons *NM*
17/10/2012 12:27:45 AM
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