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Re: Hmmm.... Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 29/09/2009 06:26:17 AM
Siuan did so too, IIRC, and that was based on Verin's report. Not as impressive as Niall, of course, who had less reliable sources to work with.


Well, she never did anything about it, forgot it or dismissed it as unimportant, as others did, while Niall quite clearly intended to do that (although, to be fair Amadicia is fairly closer to Tarabon than Tar Valon is to any Seanchan landing site).

Also, notice that this is from Egwene's PoV, and she is having such a violently negative reaction to what Elaida has become that it is quite likely that Elaida's firm command that servants come and clean the carpet sounded like a shriek to her.


That's true. Maybe I am being hasty in my judgment. But The Wheel of Time doesn't have a good record of keeping antagonists impressive.

What is making her win though, is that she is bluntly pointing out what the Tower AS had only been thinking or whispering to close friends... Elaida has been a disaster, and the Tower is much worse than it should be under an even half-way competent Amyrlin.


Just a joke directed at the disproportionate amount of respect Egwene earned by getting spanked, when we've seen so much worse in the series already. Of course I never believed that was what was going to earn her the Tower.

But she is saying that Elaida started it with her shady tactics in removing Siuan. Surely, in a fight, it matters who gave first offense?


But in that case, wouldn't the first offense be the crime that Siuan committed and got her deposed in the first place?

We do not know that Siuan was stilled at that time.
More importantly, with no trial for the woman and a bunch of admitted nonsense being described as her crimes, why should the Greens and Blues have assumed that there was any legality to this deposition?

That Warders fought against Warders is totally Elaida's fault.


No, I kinda put the blame on the Warders who attacked the Tower. And on their Sisters, who presumably commanded them, because really, what do the Warders care? So yeah, I think the Warders who turned on the other Warders are responsible for turning Warder against Warder. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Keeping the Dragon's Rebirth a secret. And a load of other crap like helping Taim escape and being a Darkfriend.

And what containment was Siuan to do? He had scarcely begun to expand his power-base then, and was doing so under the tutelage and guidance of Siuan's trusted envoy!


She could have, you know, informed the White Tower of the Dragon's Rebirth so they would be able to contain him. That would have been disastrous to the world, of course, but given that the crime is 'not containing the Dragon Reborn', let me ask you, which Amyrlin actually met with the Dragon Reborn, knowing who he was, surrounded by Aes Sedai, Warders, Tower Guard and Shienarans who would leap to obey her, while the Dragon Reborn was alone?

Of course it is wrong! I fail to see how you ignore motive in your assessment of these actions.


I don't. You do. You pretend only Egwene has rationalisations for her crimes.

Egwene was forced


No she wasn't. She was 'forced' to come to Salidar by people who had neither the authority to order her, nor the ability to enforce their decrees. Essentially, she was 'forced' by a complete and utter lack of force.

into a position where her death was a very possible finish to the story if the women who raised her fouled up.


Right, and if Elaida is deposed, she will be Stilled, which is the equivalent of death. So she is also justified in magically forcing obedience in her subjects, right?

What she did is exactly what Rand did to Moiraine. He used the fact that she needed to stay close to him to blackmail her into an oath of obedience.


That was wrong, according to Egwene (and Nynaeve), remember?

And he was damn right to demand it because she was trying to make him dance to her tune, and the only person whose reputation and very life were at stake was him!
On the other hand, as far as Egwene knows, Elaida is demanding Oaths of obedience from everyone to clean up her own mess (Egwene knows nothing of Alviarin's role in breaking the Tower).


Ah, so the problem is that Egwene knows what she did was a crime, so she did it secretly, while Elaida is actually going to be open about it?

One was essentially self defense, against a bunch of women hell bent on pulling strings and staying in power no matter who lost their life.


Welcome to politics. I'm sure no other important political figure in the series has had people who wanted to 'pull strings and stay in power no matter who lost their life'. Except, you know, all of them. Including Elaida.
The other is an obvious ploy to gain complete control over all your subjects so all your wishes are fulfilled.


No, it's just self-defense, against actual Darkfriends who want to manipulate her into destroying the White Tower and ensuring the Aes Sedai won't be able to help at Tarmon Gai'don. Wow, that's even more important than a single life, so Elaida is even more justified than Egwene!

There's nothing incongruous in Egwene's anger at Elaida's proposed Oath./quote>

No, what's incongruous is that she doesn't realise she's a hypocritical rat.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
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Your thoughts about TGS - chapter 2 *spoilers* - 24/09/2009 03:17:07 PM 7275 Views
Mind-numbingly boring... - 24/09/2009 04:22:52 PM 2041 Views
I thought it was excellent *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:32:05 PM 1154 Views
Only for someone who can't read between the lines. - 24/09/2009 07:40:18 PM 1906 Views
I adored it. *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:37:38 PM 1003 Views
Agreed, but only because of the incredibly slow audio reading. FORTY-FIVE minutes for ONE chapter!!! *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:08:27 AM 1067 Views
EVERY Chapter in the entire series is read that way. - 25/09/2009 01:40:07 PM 1548 Views
Yup, they're a lot of fun to listen to. - 26/09/2009 08:26:52 PM 1486 Views
Agreed. As for the speed issue... - 28/09/2009 02:11:13 PM 1395 Views
Cannoli’s journal of listening to “The Nature of Pain.” - 28/09/2009 01:03:35 PM 2037 Views
Chapter summary - 24/09/2009 04:31:01 PM 2132 Views
sounds like its RJs work from the dialogue *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:33:57 PM 925 Views
I agree - I'm certain it was RJ *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:36:12 PM 1093 Views
Agreed. It was RJ through and through. *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:36:13 PM 984 Views
+1 - 25/09/2009 06:03:44 AM 1574 Views
I should disagree - 26/09/2009 10:34:58 PM 1677 Views
Jordan left tons of background info in notes - 27/09/2009 07:36:11 PM 1599 Views
Re: Chapter summary - 24/09/2009 06:50:36 PM 1725 Views
Can someone explain to me where Egwene developed this immense love for the Tower? - 24/09/2009 04:44:28 PM 1728 Views
Well, she's replaced everything else in her life with the Tower. - 24/09/2009 04:47:05 PM 1751 Views
I always thought it was the small town thing - 24/09/2009 04:50:19 PM 1658 Views
Could it be that Fain could have contaminated her in tFOH? - 24/09/2009 04:51:56 PM 1608 Views
Can Fain do that? - 24/09/2009 04:53:57 PM 1577 Views
No he can't (couldn't) - 24/09/2009 05:02:21 PM 1800 Views
So you're saying that an antagonist is being portrayed as idiotic in this series? No way! - 24/09/2009 04:58:15 PM 1701 Views
I this case, I'm quite forgiving - 24/09/2009 05:36:59 PM 1608 Views
What has Gawyn done that demonstrates stupidity? - 28/09/2009 05:21:39 AM 1570 Views
Ambitious people are like that - 24/09/2009 05:08:27 PM 1647 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me where Egwene developed this immense love for the Tower? - 24/09/2009 06:01:46 PM 1600 Views
I don't think its necessarily for the tower itself - 24/09/2009 08:30:15 PM 1586 Views
This made my morning happy. - 24/09/2009 04:45:08 PM 1676 Views
I think it's different. - 24/09/2009 05:51:11 PM 1724 Views
True. - 24/09/2009 07:21:36 PM 1732 Views
Re: True. - 24/09/2009 07:30:06 PM 1587 Views
Re: I think it's different. - 25/09/2009 03:24:22 AM 1587 Views
There's still a difference... - 25/09/2009 04:28:55 AM 1476 Views
Re: There's still a difference... - 26/09/2009 12:30:28 PM 1509 Views
But... - 26/09/2009 03:44:31 PM 1525 Views
Re: But... - 26/09/2009 04:08:35 PM 1532 Views
She could have not bungled up... - 26/09/2009 05:17:02 PM 1332 Views
In PoD, it is revealed that Alviarin makes Elaida swear obedience to her. - 26/09/2009 07:48:01 PM 1572 Views
he's saying that. - 26/09/2009 10:12:16 PM 1422 Views
She also deposes Alviarin... - 26/09/2009 10:47:07 PM 1482 Views
Egwene matured a bit, BUT - 24/09/2009 04:51:53 PM 1563 Views
Ever had rancid oil? - 01/10/2009 08:42:59 PM 2281 Views
Is Alviarin finished? - 24/09/2009 04:52:31 PM 1674 Views
Two possibilities that come to mind - 24/09/2009 05:11:41 PM 1607 Views
Or - 24/09/2009 05:45:36 PM 1764 Views
Best idea ^ *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:27:15 PM 1293 Views
Egwene knows about the letter, and soon the BA hunters will too. - 24/09/2009 07:46:34 PM 1652 Views
She's got to be 'raised' to the shawl first, to take the 4 oaths. - 24/09/2009 10:33:42 PM 1570 Views
No they don't - 24/09/2009 11:03:09 PM 1468 Views
Oh, I thought you meant Elaida's new obedience oath *NM* - 25/09/2009 09:15:48 AM 972 Views
Her part will probably be... - 24/09/2009 06:06:08 PM 1648 Views
I think her mission has changed. - 24/09/2009 06:08:11 PM 1410 Views
Re: Is Alviarin finished? - 24/09/2009 09:08:29 PM 1553 Views
Good 1st chapter of Egwene's plotline! - 24/09/2009 05:15:32 PM 1622 Views
Painful to listen to - 24/09/2009 05:33:22 PM 1680 Views
Not finished it yet - 24/09/2009 05:42:18 PM 1752 Views
WHITE! - 24/09/2009 06:20:43 PM 1604 Views
Not White! (spoilers) And Seanchan attack idea. - 28/09/2009 02:26:06 AM 1641 Views
Yes, Mesaana's plain white dress seems somewhat peculiar - 24/09/2009 06:43:45 PM 1733 Views
But what if she has no choice but to stay? - 24/09/2009 08:02:01 PM 1403 Views
Are you kidding? Moridin would kill her - 24/09/2009 10:50:34 PM 1497 Views
She doesn't.. - 25/09/2009 06:36:22 AM 1459 Views
If this is true, it could be a ploy - 25/09/2009 03:06:45 AM 1587 Views
Plus, it avoids getting tangled in the Black Ajah hunt - 25/09/2009 03:11:38 AM 1377 Views
I struggle to think of Mesaana as a novice - 25/09/2009 05:16:57 AM 1581 Views
I disagree - 25/09/2009 11:08:34 AM 1676 Views
nice idea *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:29:56 PM 917 Views
I liked it *Spoilers* - 24/09/2009 05:49:41 PM 1566 Views
I think... - 24/09/2009 07:01:42 PM 1759 Views
Re: I think... - 24/09/2009 07:33:34 PM 1347 Views
Re: I think... - 24/09/2009 08:00:09 PM 1713 Views
Wasn't there a high turnover in War of Power as well? - 24/09/2009 08:07:38 PM 1445 Views
Re: Wasn't there a high turnover in War of Power as well? - 25/09/2009 03:43:22 PM 1587 Views
Chosen have been mindtrapped before - 25/09/2009 04:32:18 PM 1344 Views
Re: I think... - 25/09/2009 07:25:34 PM 1511 Views
Surely worse happened in the War of Power though before the seals were laid - 24/09/2009 07:58:54 PM 1541 Views
I was totally caught off guard! - 24/09/2009 05:50:39 PM 1559 Views
I all excited! - 24/09/2009 06:26:23 PM 1480 Views
Yay - 24/09/2009 07:00:41 PM 1746 Views
Egwene is arrogant as ever...thinking Rand can't possibly get along without guidance *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:25:24 PM 1147 Views
is she wrong? - 24/09/2009 08:34:44 PM 1637 Views
The problem is that Egwene isn't honest with herself. Two afterthouts as edits - 24/09/2009 08:43:38 PM 1806 Views
Re: The problem is that Egwene isn't honest with herself. - 24/09/2009 08:46:09 PM 1598 Views
I'm sure Moridin knows how to too - 27/09/2009 03:59:49 PM 1490 Views
Re: is she wrong? - 25/09/2009 03:38:09 AM 1662 Views
Re: is she wrong? - 25/09/2009 04:30:28 AM 1444 Views
You're totally wrong - 25/09/2009 02:23:27 PM 1601 Views
Re: You're totally wrong - 25/09/2009 03:32:22 PM 1558 Views
but she was absolutely essential in the successful completion - 29/09/2009 02:55:13 PM 1796 Views
I like Egwene but I didn't like her statement - 25/09/2009 05:03:33 AM 1748 Views
I agree, and one more reason why I agree - 25/09/2009 02:27:44 PM 1632 Views
I disagree in some ways - 25/09/2009 03:23:35 PM 1400 Views
I agree, and that is Rand's problem in the first place. - 25/09/2009 07:27:22 PM 1555 Views
Rand should invoke the 'Law of War' against the DO - 25/09/2009 06:19:56 AM 1501 Views
She wants part of the glory. *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:31:47 AM 889 Views
What will happen first: black ajah hunt ends or Seanchan attack the WT? - 24/09/2009 08:38:43 PM 1684 Views
I can never decide what I think will happen - 24/09/2009 08:44:03 PM 1613 Views
Re: I can never decide what I think will happen - 24/09/2009 09:25:18 PM 1554 Views
I disagree, the Rebels are better protected - 24/09/2009 09:36:19 PM 1621 Views
I agree with you. Rebels are harder to take (rebels have Asha'man too) *NM* - 24/09/2009 09:59:10 PM 977 Views
So do the Tower Reds, only the Seanchan don't know that yet... - 25/09/2009 04:46:17 AM 1470 Views
Yet according to one of Min's visions, Carlinya gets made "property" - 29/09/2009 03:09:28 PM 1413 Views
Re: Yet according to one of Min's visions, Carlinya gets made "property" - 29/09/2009 03:23:45 PM 1537 Views
OK, I didn't remember the details correctly - 29/09/2009 03:38:16 PM 1538 Views
Re: OK, I didn't remember the details correctly - 29/09/2009 04:11:22 PM 1609 Views
Harnan's tattoo is of a hawk, not a raven - 29/09/2009 04:37:27 PM 1627 Views
Oops. Then no other interpretations. - 29/09/2009 04:51:07 PM 1556 Views
Potential for conflicting prophecies? - 26/09/2009 08:49:04 PM 1339 Views
no.. - 26/09/2009 09:12:52 PM 1437 Views
The title of book 13... - 24/09/2009 09:19:17 PM 1425 Views
Swing and a miss. - 24/09/2009 10:33:46 PM 1624 Views
As said - 25/09/2009 06:37:46 AM 1415 Views
Or maybe the fortress in the blight? - 25/09/2009 12:51:05 PM 1472 Views
Yes, those Towers... - 25/09/2009 03:10:40 PM 1533 Views
Seems unlikely to me. - 25/09/2009 01:44:27 PM 1567 Views
Yeah, that's possible. - 25/09/2009 03:11:33 PM 1519 Views
Egwene's surprising decision... - 25/09/2009 08:38:51 PM 1400 Views
I think it's an exaggeration - 25/09/2009 09:01:22 PM 1524 Views
Re: Egwene's surprising decision... - 26/09/2009 12:58:51 AM 1568 Views
The Seanchan attack will happen first - 24/09/2009 10:47:50 PM 1417 Views
I think Egwene is building up an immunity to forkroot. *NM* - 25/09/2009 02:03:58 AM 993 Views
I'm kinda hoping Mesaana hands them all in a basket to Moridin. - 25/09/2009 02:51:55 AM 1314 Views
Egwene's respect reminds me of Niall's comment to Morgase - 25/09/2009 03:39:19 AM 1468 Views
Both at once, I don't think it will be a neat A then B, or B then A - 25/09/2009 03:53:30 AM 1498 Views
How would they possibly hear of Turan in Arad Doman? - 25/09/2009 02:34:34 PM 1490 Views
Raken - they are used as messengers - 25/09/2009 02:43:29 PM 1430 Views
Egwene... surprised me. It was great. - 24/09/2009 08:49:36 PM 1375 Views
I didn't catch any hints as to Mesaana's identity. Were there any? - 24/09/2009 08:51:23 PM 1447 Views
Katerine is Black Ajah - 24/09/2009 10:48:14 PM 1520 Views
Also... this makes me miss RJ even more - 24/09/2009 08:52:52 PM 1783 Views
I experienced just the opposite - 25/09/2009 06:40:53 AM 1613 Views
Totally disagree - 25/09/2009 06:58:36 AM 1445 Views
This was a truely beautiful chapter *NM* - 24/09/2009 10:22:48 PM 949 Views
Really? - 24/09/2009 11:37:59 PM 1466 Views
Daaayyum - when did Elaida become such a baller/shot caller? - 24/09/2009 11:23:41 PM 1464 Views
In regards to Alviarin. - 25/09/2009 01:32:09 AM 1577 Views
Could Elaida pass a 4th Oath? - 25/09/2009 05:13:08 AM 1504 Views
The Black Ajah would never stand for it, even if the other sisters would - 25/09/2009 06:38:19 AM 1673 Views
And therein lies Elaida's genius... - 25/09/2009 07:08:48 PM 1639 Views
Fain as the source of much of the Tower's woes - 25/09/2009 05:30:49 AM 1481 Views
No one else thinks Fain has had any influence on Elaida's erratic behavior? *NM* - 25/09/2009 05:32:05 PM 976 Views
I agree. Fain is affecting her, for certain. NT *NM* - 28/09/2009 02:30:45 AM 1024 Views
What about Mesaana? - 25/09/2009 06:03:41 PM 1389 Views
Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:34:35 PM 1523 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:38:39 PM 1513 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:40:32 PM 1531 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 04:16:16 PM 1521 Views
We already saw Mat confront Egwene in Salidar. What more - 25/09/2009 04:18:21 PM 1667 Views
Re: We already saw Mat confront Egwene in Salidar. What more - 25/09/2009 04:37:04 PM 1550 Views
That's not his argument though - 25/09/2009 04:34:35 PM 1365 Views
Ah okay. - 25/09/2009 04:36:00 PM 1476 Views
She seemed okay with it in KoD - 25/09/2009 04:38:53 PM 1606 Views
I think... - 25/09/2009 03:47:26 PM 1599 Views
Nice ideas! *NM* - 25/09/2009 03:51:01 PM 1249 Views
That is really good idea - 25/09/2009 08:12:34 PM 1692 Views
Though... - 26/09/2009 01:32:18 PM 1542 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 06:15:56 PM 1357 Views
egwene and elaida's 4th oath - 25/09/2009 03:51:36 PM 1503 Views
Egwene's Hypocrisy here is astounding: - 29/09/2009 03:39:25 AM 1481 Views
Egwene and Mesaana - 25/09/2009 06:07:37 PM 1548 Views
Come now...even though Mesaana is whimpy for a Forsaken, she would wipe the floor with Egwene... - 25/09/2009 06:10:13 PM 1573 Views
Alright, I *may* have overlooked that significant point. - 25/09/2009 06:21:09 PM 1399 Views
Agreed - 26/09/2009 06:36:01 AM 1462 Views
Depends on where the battle takes place. TAR = Egwene win. - 02/10/2009 06:10:07 PM 1573 Views
Egwene would need to lead a circle or use an angreal to beat her. *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:31:42 PM 953 Views
Unless it was based on willpower as in a conflict within Tel'Aran'Rhiod - 25/09/2009 07:19:50 PM 1474 Views
Humph. - 26/09/2009 03:27:09 AM 1425 Views
She was overconfident - 26/09/2009 03:24:51 PM 1463 Views
A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 02:31:36 PM 1688 Views
Re: A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 02:50:49 PM 1485 Views
Re: A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 03:01:06 PM 1431 Views
I don't think it covers things like that - 27/09/2009 04:10:05 PM 1455 Views
She believes what she said *NM* - 28/09/2009 04:51:52 AM 938 Views
Remember, perspective. - 29/09/2009 12:14:59 AM 1360 Views
It might well be true - 29/09/2009 12:38:20 AM 1481 Views
Well... that elicited quite a reaction. - 28/09/2009 06:25:52 AM 1293 Views
I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 05:27:43 PM 1549 Views
Re: I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 06:42:56 PM 1308 Views
Re: I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 1451 Views
I've just learned to skip any female POV's written by RJ - 29/09/2009 04:38:45 AM 1488 Views
Hmmm.... - 29/09/2009 05:30:44 AM 1530 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 29/09/2009 06:26:17 AM 1540 Views
Ridiculous - 30/09/2009 12:34:07 AM 1361 Views
Very. - 30/09/2009 02:40:07 AM 1496 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 30/09/2009 03:00:01 AM 1484 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 30/09/2009 04:32:14 AM 1534 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 01/10/2009 03:23:21 AM 1440 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 01/10/2009 04:51:14 AM 1466 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 03/10/2009 01:57:24 PM 1794 Views
That's Mesaana's purpose actually *NM* - 06/11/2009 07:03:12 AM 897 Views
Elaida, Formidable? - 29/09/2009 11:48:04 PM 1538 Views
How do you figure? - 30/09/2009 12:15:47 AM 1281 Views
Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done? - 30/09/2009 12:35:07 AM 1493 Views
Re: Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done? - 30/09/2009 02:29:37 AM 1389 Views
Broke the Black Ajah's hold on the Amyrlin seat??????? - 30/09/2009 06:09:08 PM 1349 Views
Ignore *NM* - 30/09/2009 06:20:12 PM 914 Views
Oh yeah, and... - 29/09/2009 04:22:57 AM 1608 Views
Egwene in this chapter... - 29/09/2009 05:04:35 AM 1506 Views
Re: Egwene in this chapter... - 29/09/2009 05:59:33 AM 1635 Views
Author thoughts - Audiobook versus reading - 29/09/2009 05:30:39 AM 1497 Views
Yes, I've felt very much the same *NM* - 29/09/2009 12:52:52 PM 1047 Views
A lot of that is the narrator - 29/09/2009 04:36:47 PM 1556 Views
The Dark One's Touch - 30/09/2009 06:21:24 PM 1586 Views
Good point! *NM* - 30/09/2009 06:26:51 PM 966 Views
Re: The Dark One's Touch - 30/09/2009 06:44:53 PM 1384 Views
What about the person who has the ter'angreal dagger? - 30/09/2009 07:11:18 PM 1349 Views
Re: What about the person who has the ter'angreal dagger? - 30/09/2009 07:17:06 PM 1592 Views
The Irony of Elaida - 30/09/2009 11:10:08 PM 1502 Views
LOL, I agree. - 01/10/2009 02:47:18 AM 1456 Views

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