Siuan did so too, IIRC, and that was based on Verin's report. Not as impressive as Niall, of course, who had less reliable sources to work with.
Well, she never did anything about it, forgot it or dismissed it as unimportant, as others did, while Niall quite clearly intended to do that (although, to be fair Amadicia is fairly closer to Tarabon than Tar Valon is to any Seanchan landing site).
Also, notice that this is from Egwene's PoV, and she is having such a violently negative reaction to what Elaida has become that it is quite likely that Elaida's firm command that servants come and clean the carpet sounded like a shriek to her.
That's true. Maybe I am being hasty in my judgment. But The Wheel of Time doesn't have a good record of keeping antagonists impressive.
What is making her win though, is that she is bluntly pointing out what the Tower AS had only been thinking or whispering to close friends... Elaida has been a disaster, and the Tower is much worse than it should be under an even half-way competent Amyrlin.
Just a joke directed at the disproportionate amount of respect Egwene earned by getting spanked, when we've seen so much worse in the series already. Of course I never believed that was what was going to earn her the Tower.
But she is saying that Elaida started it with her shady tactics in removing Siuan. Surely, in a fight, it matters who gave first offense?
But in that case, wouldn't the first offense be the crime that Siuan committed and got her deposed in the first place?
We do not know that Siuan was stilled at that time.
More importantly, with no trial for the woman and a bunch of admitted nonsense being described as her crimes, why should the Greens and Blues have assumed that there was any legality to this deposition?
That Warders fought against Warders is totally Elaida's fault.
More importantly, with no trial for the woman and a bunch of admitted nonsense being described as her crimes, why should the Greens and Blues have assumed that there was any legality to this deposition?
That Warders fought against Warders is totally Elaida's fault.
No, I kinda put the blame on the Warders who attacked the Tower. And on their Sisters, who presumably commanded them, because really, what do the Warders care? So yeah, I think the Warders who turned on the other Warders are responsible for turning Warder against Warder. Funny how that works, isn't it?
Keeping the Dragon's Rebirth a secret. And a load of other crap like helping Taim escape and being a Darkfriend.
And what containment was Siuan to do? He had scarcely begun to expand his power-base then, and was doing so under the tutelage and guidance of Siuan's trusted envoy!
And what containment was Siuan to do? He had scarcely begun to expand his power-base then, and was doing so under the tutelage and guidance of Siuan's trusted envoy!
She could have, you know, informed the White Tower of the Dragon's Rebirth so they would be able to contain him. That would have been disastrous to the world, of course, but given that the crime is 'not containing the Dragon Reborn', let me ask you, which Amyrlin actually met with the Dragon Reborn, knowing who he was, surrounded by Aes Sedai, Warders, Tower Guard and Shienarans who would leap to obey her, while the Dragon Reborn was alone?
Of course it is wrong! I fail to see how you ignore motive in your assessment of these actions.
I don't. You do. You pretend only Egwene has rationalisations for her crimes.
Egwene was forced
No she wasn't. She was 'forced' to come to Salidar by people who had neither the authority to order her, nor the ability to enforce their decrees. Essentially, she was 'forced' by a complete and utter lack of force.
into a position where her death was a very possible finish to the story if the women who raised her fouled up.
Right, and if Elaida is deposed, she will be Stilled, which is the equivalent of death. So she is also justified in magically forcing obedience in her subjects, right?
What she did is exactly what Rand did to Moiraine. He used the fact that she needed to stay close to him to blackmail her into an oath of obedience.
That was wrong, according to Egwene (and Nynaeve), remember?
And he was damn right to demand it because she was trying to make him dance to her tune, and the only person whose reputation and very life were at stake was him!
On the other hand, as far as Egwene knows, Elaida is demanding Oaths of obedience from everyone to clean up her own mess (Egwene knows nothing of Alviarin's role in breaking the Tower).
On the other hand, as far as Egwene knows, Elaida is demanding Oaths of obedience from everyone to clean up her own mess (Egwene knows nothing of Alviarin's role in breaking the Tower).
Ah, so the problem is that Egwene knows what she did was a crime, so she did it secretly, while Elaida is actually going to be open about it?
One was essentially self defense, against a bunch of women hell bent on pulling strings and staying in power no matter who lost their life.
Welcome to politics. I'm sure no other important political figure in the series has had people who wanted to 'pull strings and stay in power no matter who lost their life'. Except, you know, all of them. Including Elaida.
The other is an obvious ploy to gain complete control over all your subjects so all your wishes are fulfilled.
No, it's just self-defense, against actual Darkfriends who want to manipulate her into destroying the White Tower and ensuring the Aes Sedai won't be able to help at Tarmon Gai'don. Wow, that's even more important than a single life, so Elaida is even more justified than Egwene!
There's nothing incongruous in Egwene's anger at Elaida's proposed Oath./quote>
No, what's incongruous is that she doesn't realise she's a hypocritical rat.
No, what's incongruous is that she doesn't realise she's a hypocritical rat.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
Your thoughts about TGS - chapter 2 *spoilers*
24/09/2009 03:17:07 PM
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Mind-numbingly boring...
24/09/2009 04:22:52 PM
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Agreed, but only because of the incredibly slow audio reading. FORTY-FIVE minutes for ONE chapter!!! *NM*
25/09/2009 06:08:27 AM
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EVERY Chapter in the entire series is read that way.
25/09/2009 01:40:07 PM
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Chapter summary
24/09/2009 04:31:01 PM
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sounds like its RJs work from the dialogue *NM*
24/09/2009 04:33:57 PM
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I should disagree
26/09/2009 10:34:58 PM
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Jordan left tons of background info in notes
27/09/2009 07:36:11 PM
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Re: Jordan left tons of background info in notes
27/09/2009 08:10:06 PM
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Her entry in Encyclopaedia wot makes no mention of her being amyrlin *NM*
28/09/2009 01:17:49 AM
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Jordan could have easily added that to her backstory after LOC. It's been at least ten years.
28/09/2009 09:46:34 PM
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Re: Jordan could have easily added that to her backstory after LOC. It's been at least ten years.
28/09/2009 10:04:02 PM
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Can someone explain to me where Egwene developed this immense love for the Tower?
24/09/2009 04:44:28 PM
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Well, she's replaced everything else in her life with the Tower.
24/09/2009 04:47:05 PM
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I always thought it was the small town thing
24/09/2009 04:50:19 PM
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Could it be that Fain could have contaminated her in tFOH?
24/09/2009 04:51:56 PM
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So you're saying that an antagonist is being portrayed as idiotic in this series? No way!
24/09/2009 04:58:15 PM
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Re: Can someone explain to me where Egwene developed this immense love for the Tower?
24/09/2009 06:01:46 PM
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This made my morning happy.
24/09/2009 04:45:08 PM
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I think it's different.
24/09/2009 05:51:11 PM
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True.
24/09/2009 07:21:36 PM
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Re: True.
24/09/2009 07:30:06 PM
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I also think Egwene might free them from it once she becomes recognized Amyrlin *NM*
24/09/2009 08:36:55 PM
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Re: I think it's different.
25/09/2009 03:24:22 AM
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There's still a difference...
25/09/2009 04:28:55 AM
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Re: There's still a difference...
26/09/2009 12:30:28 PM
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But...
26/09/2009 03:44:31 PM
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In PoD, it is revealed that Alviarin makes Elaida swear obedience to her.
26/09/2009 07:48:01 PM
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Is Alviarin finished?
24/09/2009 04:52:31 PM
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Two possibilities that come to mind
24/09/2009 05:11:41 PM
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Egwene knows about the letter, and soon the BA hunters will too.
24/09/2009 07:46:34 PM
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She's got to be 'raised' to the shawl first, to take the 4 oaths.
24/09/2009 10:33:42 PM
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Not finished it yet
24/09/2009 05:42:18 PM
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Yes, Mesaana's plain white dress seems somewhat peculiar
24/09/2009 06:43:45 PM
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Are you kidding? Moridin would kill her
24/09/2009 10:50:34 PM
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I doubt it - I'm of the opinion that Moridin may be next on SH's "personal attentions" list
25/09/2009 05:16:38 PM
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If this is true, it could be a ploy
25/09/2009 03:06:45 AM
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I liked it *Spoilers*
24/09/2009 05:49:41 PM
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I think...
24/09/2009 07:01:42 PM
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Re: I think...
24/09/2009 07:33:34 PM
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Re: I think...
24/09/2009 08:00:09 PM
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Wasn't there a high turnover in War of Power as well?
24/09/2009 08:07:38 PM
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Surely worse happened in the War of Power though before the seals were laid
24/09/2009 07:58:54 PM
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Egwene is arrogant as ever...thinking Rand can't possibly get along without guidance *NM*
24/09/2009 08:25:24 PM
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is she wrong?
24/09/2009 08:34:44 PM
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The problem is that Egwene isn't honest with herself. Two afterthouts as edits
24/09/2009 08:43:38 PM
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Re: is she wrong?
25/09/2009 03:38:09 AM
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Re: is she wrong?
25/09/2009 04:30:28 AM
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I like Egwene but I didn't like her statement
25/09/2009 05:03:33 AM
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What will happen first: black ajah hunt ends or Seanchan attack the WT?
24/09/2009 08:38:43 PM
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I can never decide what I think will happen
24/09/2009 08:44:03 PM
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Re: I can never decide what I think will happen
24/09/2009 09:25:18 PM
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I disagree, the Rebels are better protected
24/09/2009 09:36:19 PM
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I agree with you. Rebels are harder to take (rebels have Asha'man too) *NM*
24/09/2009 09:59:10 PM
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Yet according to one of Min's visions, Carlinya gets made "property"
29/09/2009 03:09:28 PM
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Re: Yet according to one of Min's visions, Carlinya gets made "property"
29/09/2009 03:23:45 PM
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OK, I didn't remember the details correctly
29/09/2009 03:38:16 PM
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Re: OK, I didn't remember the details correctly
29/09/2009 04:11:22 PM
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The title of book 13...
24/09/2009 09:19:17 PM
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Swing and a miss.
24/09/2009 10:33:46 PM
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As said
25/09/2009 06:37:46 AM
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Both at once, I don't think it will be a neat A then B, or B then A
25/09/2009 03:53:30 AM
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I didn't catch any hints as to Mesaana's identity. Were there any?
24/09/2009 08:51:23 PM
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Also... this makes me miss RJ even more
24/09/2009 08:52:52 PM
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I can't wait to actually read the chapter-- I thought it was very well written *NM*
25/09/2009 12:18:48 AM
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Could Elaida pass a 4th Oath?
25/09/2009 05:13:08 AM
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I think it would serve as motivation for those who say "You don't have to like the Amrylin" to turn.
25/09/2009 06:08:19 AM
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The Black Ajah would never stand for it, even if the other sisters would
25/09/2009 06:38:19 AM
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Re: The Black Ajah would never stand for it, even if the other sisters would
26/09/2009 04:45:32 AM
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Fain as the source of much of the Tower's woes
25/09/2009 05:30:49 AM
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No one else thinks Fain has had any influence on Elaida's erratic behavior? *NM*
25/09/2009 05:32:05 PM
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What about Mesaana?
25/09/2009 06:03:41 PM
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Definitely Mesana-- but I was wondering if the Shadar Logoth taint leaked onto Elaida a little
25/09/2009 07:43:24 PM
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Mat vs Egwene
25/09/2009 03:34:35 PM
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Re: Mat vs Egwene
25/09/2009 03:38:39 PM
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Re: Mat vs Egwene
25/09/2009 03:40:32 PM
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Re: Mat vs Egwene
25/09/2009 04:16:16 PM
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That's not his argument though
25/09/2009 04:34:35 PM
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I think...
25/09/2009 03:47:26 PM
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Egwene and Mesaana
25/09/2009 06:07:37 PM
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Come now...even though Mesaana is whimpy for a Forsaken, she would wipe the floor with Egwene...
25/09/2009 06:10:13 PM
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Egwene would need to lead a circle or use an angreal to beat her. *NM*
25/09/2009 06:31:42 PM
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Unless it was based on willpower as in a conflict within Tel'Aran'Rhiod
25/09/2009 07:19:50 PM
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Well... that elicited quite a reaction.
28/09/2009 06:25:52 AM
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I had many of those same thoughts.
28/09/2009 05:27:43 PM
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Re: I had many of those same thoughts.
28/09/2009 06:42:56 PM
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Re: I had many of those same thoughts.
28/09/2009 11:08:00 PM
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She'll do everything to re-unite the Tower - except anything that could actually re-unite it
29/09/2009 02:26:10 AM
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Hmmm....
29/09/2009 05:30:44 AM
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Re: Hmmm....
29/09/2009 06:26:17 AM
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Re: Hmmm....
30/09/2009 03:00:01 AM
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Elaida, Formidable?
29/09/2009 11:48:04 PM
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How do you figure?
30/09/2009 12:15:47 AM
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Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done?
30/09/2009 12:35:07 AM
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Re: Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done?
30/09/2009 02:29:37 AM
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Oh yeah, and...
29/09/2009 04:22:57 AM
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The Dark One's Touch
30/09/2009 06:21:24 PM
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Re: The Dark One's Touch
30/09/2009 06:44:53 PM
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