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Re: Hmmm.... Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 29/09/2009 06:26:17 AM
Siuan did so too, IIRC, and that was based on Verin's report. Not as impressive as Niall, of course, who had less reliable sources to work with.


Well, she never did anything about it, forgot it or dismissed it as unimportant, as others did, while Niall quite clearly intended to do that (although, to be fair Amadicia is fairly closer to Tarabon than Tar Valon is to any Seanchan landing site).

Also, notice that this is from Egwene's PoV, and she is having such a violently negative reaction to what Elaida has become that it is quite likely that Elaida's firm command that servants come and clean the carpet sounded like a shriek to her.


That's true. Maybe I am being hasty in my judgment. But The Wheel of Time doesn't have a good record of keeping antagonists impressive.

What is making her win though, is that she is bluntly pointing out what the Tower AS had only been thinking or whispering to close friends... Elaida has been a disaster, and the Tower is much worse than it should be under an even half-way competent Amyrlin.


Just a joke directed at the disproportionate amount of respect Egwene earned by getting spanked, when we've seen so much worse in the series already. Of course I never believed that was what was going to earn her the Tower.

But she is saying that Elaida started it with her shady tactics in removing Siuan. Surely, in a fight, it matters who gave first offense?


But in that case, wouldn't the first offense be the crime that Siuan committed and got her deposed in the first place?

We do not know that Siuan was stilled at that time.
More importantly, with no trial for the woman and a bunch of admitted nonsense being described as her crimes, why should the Greens and Blues have assumed that there was any legality to this deposition?

That Warders fought against Warders is totally Elaida's fault.


No, I kinda put the blame on the Warders who attacked the Tower. And on their Sisters, who presumably commanded them, because really, what do the Warders care? So yeah, I think the Warders who turned on the other Warders are responsible for turning Warder against Warder. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Keeping the Dragon's Rebirth a secret. And a load of other crap like helping Taim escape and being a Darkfriend.

And what containment was Siuan to do? He had scarcely begun to expand his power-base then, and was doing so under the tutelage and guidance of Siuan's trusted envoy!


She could have, you know, informed the White Tower of the Dragon's Rebirth so they would be able to contain him. That would have been disastrous to the world, of course, but given that the crime is 'not containing the Dragon Reborn', let me ask you, which Amyrlin actually met with the Dragon Reborn, knowing who he was, surrounded by Aes Sedai, Warders, Tower Guard and Shienarans who would leap to obey her, while the Dragon Reborn was alone?

Of course it is wrong! I fail to see how you ignore motive in your assessment of these actions.


I don't. You do. You pretend only Egwene has rationalisations for her crimes.

Egwene was forced


No she wasn't. She was 'forced' to come to Salidar by people who had neither the authority to order her, nor the ability to enforce their decrees. Essentially, she was 'forced' by a complete and utter lack of force.

into a position where her death was a very possible finish to the story if the women who raised her fouled up.


Right, and if Elaida is deposed, she will be Stilled, which is the equivalent of death. So she is also justified in magically forcing obedience in her subjects, right?

What she did is exactly what Rand did to Moiraine. He used the fact that she needed to stay close to him to blackmail her into an oath of obedience.


That was wrong, according to Egwene (and Nynaeve), remember?

And he was damn right to demand it because she was trying to make him dance to her tune, and the only person whose reputation and very life were at stake was him!
On the other hand, as far as Egwene knows, Elaida is demanding Oaths of obedience from everyone to clean up her own mess (Egwene knows nothing of Alviarin's role in breaking the Tower).


Ah, so the problem is that Egwene knows what she did was a crime, so she did it secretly, while Elaida is actually going to be open about it?

One was essentially self defense, against a bunch of women hell bent on pulling strings and staying in power no matter who lost their life.


Welcome to politics. I'm sure no other important political figure in the series has had people who wanted to 'pull strings and stay in power no matter who lost their life'. Except, you know, all of them. Including Elaida.
The other is an obvious ploy to gain complete control over all your subjects so all your wishes are fulfilled.


No, it's just self-defense, against actual Darkfriends who want to manipulate her into destroying the White Tower and ensuring the Aes Sedai won't be able to help at Tarmon Gai'don. Wow, that's even more important than a single life, so Elaida is even more justified than Egwene!

There's nothing incongruous in Egwene's anger at Elaida's proposed Oath./quote>

No, what's incongruous is that she doesn't realise she's a hypocritical rat.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
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Your thoughts about TGS - chapter 2 *spoilers* - 24/09/2009 03:17:07 PM 7313 Views
Mind-numbingly boring... - 24/09/2009 04:22:52 PM 2076 Views
I thought it was excellent *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:32:05 PM 1177 Views
Only for someone who can't read between the lines. - 24/09/2009 07:40:18 PM 1939 Views
I adored it. *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:37:38 PM 1021 Views
Agreed, but only because of the incredibly slow audio reading. FORTY-FIVE minutes for ONE chapter!!! *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:08:27 AM 1084 Views
EVERY Chapter in the entire series is read that way. - 25/09/2009 01:40:07 PM 1578 Views
Yup, they're a lot of fun to listen to. - 26/09/2009 08:26:52 PM 1517 Views
Agreed. As for the speed issue... - 28/09/2009 02:11:13 PM 1425 Views
Cannoli’s journal of listening to “The Nature of Pain.” - 28/09/2009 01:03:35 PM 2070 Views
Chapter summary - 24/09/2009 04:31:01 PM 2165 Views
sounds like its RJs work from the dialogue *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:33:57 PM 941 Views
I agree - I'm certain it was RJ *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:36:12 PM 1109 Views
Agreed. It was RJ through and through. *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:36:13 PM 999 Views
+1 - 25/09/2009 06:03:44 AM 1611 Views
I should disagree - 26/09/2009 10:34:58 PM 1707 Views
Jordan left tons of background info in notes - 27/09/2009 07:36:11 PM 1641 Views
Re: Chapter summary - 24/09/2009 06:50:36 PM 1755 Views
Can someone explain to me where Egwene developed this immense love for the Tower? - 24/09/2009 04:44:28 PM 1764 Views
Well, she's replaced everything else in her life with the Tower. - 24/09/2009 04:47:05 PM 1785 Views
I always thought it was the small town thing - 24/09/2009 04:50:19 PM 1695 Views
Could it be that Fain could have contaminated her in tFOH? - 24/09/2009 04:51:56 PM 1638 Views
Can Fain do that? - 24/09/2009 04:53:57 PM 1606 Views
No he can't (couldn't) - 24/09/2009 05:02:21 PM 1830 Views
So you're saying that an antagonist is being portrayed as idiotic in this series? No way! - 24/09/2009 04:58:15 PM 1730 Views
I this case, I'm quite forgiving - 24/09/2009 05:36:59 PM 1641 Views
What has Gawyn done that demonstrates stupidity? - 28/09/2009 05:21:39 AM 1606 Views
Ambitious people are like that - 24/09/2009 05:08:27 PM 1677 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me where Egwene developed this immense love for the Tower? - 24/09/2009 06:01:46 PM 1630 Views
I don't think its necessarily for the tower itself - 24/09/2009 08:30:15 PM 1619 Views
This made my morning happy. - 24/09/2009 04:45:08 PM 1706 Views
I think it's different. - 24/09/2009 05:51:11 PM 1765 Views
True. - 24/09/2009 07:21:36 PM 1763 Views
Re: True. - 24/09/2009 07:30:06 PM 1628 Views
Re: I think it's different. - 25/09/2009 03:24:22 AM 1620 Views
There's still a difference... - 25/09/2009 04:28:55 AM 1521 Views
Re: There's still a difference... - 26/09/2009 12:30:28 PM 1546 Views
But... - 26/09/2009 03:44:31 PM 1558 Views
Re: But... - 26/09/2009 04:08:35 PM 1561 Views
She could have not bungled up... - 26/09/2009 05:17:02 PM 1366 Views
In PoD, it is revealed that Alviarin makes Elaida swear obedience to her. - 26/09/2009 07:48:01 PM 1619 Views
he's saying that. - 26/09/2009 10:12:16 PM 1458 Views
She also deposes Alviarin... - 26/09/2009 10:47:07 PM 1516 Views
Egwene matured a bit, BUT - 24/09/2009 04:51:53 PM 1595 Views
Ever had rancid oil? - 01/10/2009 08:42:59 PM 2308 Views
Is Alviarin finished? - 24/09/2009 04:52:31 PM 1707 Views
Two possibilities that come to mind - 24/09/2009 05:11:41 PM 1643 Views
Or - 24/09/2009 05:45:36 PM 1796 Views
Best idea ^ *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:27:15 PM 1314 Views
Egwene knows about the letter, and soon the BA hunters will too. - 24/09/2009 07:46:34 PM 1681 Views
She's got to be 'raised' to the shawl first, to take the 4 oaths. - 24/09/2009 10:33:42 PM 1602 Views
No they don't - 24/09/2009 11:03:09 PM 1502 Views
Oh, I thought you meant Elaida's new obedience oath *NM* - 25/09/2009 09:15:48 AM 985 Views
Her part will probably be... - 24/09/2009 06:06:08 PM 1679 Views
I think her mission has changed. - 24/09/2009 06:08:11 PM 1444 Views
Re: Is Alviarin finished? - 24/09/2009 09:08:29 PM 1588 Views
Good 1st chapter of Egwene's plotline! - 24/09/2009 05:15:32 PM 1654 Views
Painful to listen to - 24/09/2009 05:33:22 PM 1710 Views
Not finished it yet - 24/09/2009 05:42:18 PM 1782 Views
WHITE! - 24/09/2009 06:20:43 PM 1634 Views
Not White! (spoilers) And Seanchan attack idea. - 28/09/2009 02:26:06 AM 1689 Views
Yes, Mesaana's plain white dress seems somewhat peculiar - 24/09/2009 06:43:45 PM 1773 Views
But what if she has no choice but to stay? - 24/09/2009 08:02:01 PM 1433 Views
Are you kidding? Moridin would kill her - 24/09/2009 10:50:34 PM 1527 Views
She doesn't.. - 25/09/2009 06:36:22 AM 1486 Views
If this is true, it could be a ploy - 25/09/2009 03:06:45 AM 1619 Views
Plus, it avoids getting tangled in the Black Ajah hunt - 25/09/2009 03:11:38 AM 1414 Views
I struggle to think of Mesaana as a novice - 25/09/2009 05:16:57 AM 1612 Views
I disagree - 25/09/2009 11:08:34 AM 1707 Views
nice idea *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:29:56 PM 936 Views
I liked it *Spoilers* - 24/09/2009 05:49:41 PM 1599 Views
I think... - 24/09/2009 07:01:42 PM 1789 Views
Re: I think... - 24/09/2009 07:33:34 PM 1385 Views
Re: I think... - 24/09/2009 08:00:09 PM 1747 Views
Wasn't there a high turnover in War of Power as well? - 24/09/2009 08:07:38 PM 1484 Views
Re: Wasn't there a high turnover in War of Power as well? - 25/09/2009 03:43:22 PM 1622 Views
Chosen have been mindtrapped before - 25/09/2009 04:32:18 PM 1378 Views
Re: I think... - 25/09/2009 07:25:34 PM 1544 Views
Surely worse happened in the War of Power though before the seals were laid - 24/09/2009 07:58:54 PM 1572 Views
I was totally caught off guard! - 24/09/2009 05:50:39 PM 1602 Views
I all excited! - 24/09/2009 06:26:23 PM 1511 Views
Yay - 24/09/2009 07:00:41 PM 1784 Views
Egwene is arrogant as ever...thinking Rand can't possibly get along without guidance *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:25:24 PM 1162 Views
is she wrong? - 24/09/2009 08:34:44 PM 1664 Views
The problem is that Egwene isn't honest with herself. Two afterthouts as edits - 24/09/2009 08:43:38 PM 1839 Views
Re: The problem is that Egwene isn't honest with herself. - 24/09/2009 08:46:09 PM 1629 Views
I'm sure Moridin knows how to too - 27/09/2009 03:59:49 PM 1522 Views
Re: is she wrong? - 25/09/2009 03:38:09 AM 1695 Views
Re: is she wrong? - 25/09/2009 04:30:28 AM 1478 Views
You're totally wrong - 25/09/2009 02:23:27 PM 1640 Views
Re: You're totally wrong - 25/09/2009 03:32:22 PM 1596 Views
but she was absolutely essential in the successful completion - 29/09/2009 02:55:13 PM 1831 Views
I like Egwene but I didn't like her statement - 25/09/2009 05:03:33 AM 1791 Views
I agree, and one more reason why I agree - 25/09/2009 02:27:44 PM 1675 Views
I disagree in some ways - 25/09/2009 03:23:35 PM 1435 Views
I agree, and that is Rand's problem in the first place. - 25/09/2009 07:27:22 PM 1589 Views
Rand should invoke the 'Law of War' against the DO - 25/09/2009 06:19:56 AM 1538 Views
She wants part of the glory. *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:31:47 AM 907 Views
What will happen first: black ajah hunt ends or Seanchan attack the WT? - 24/09/2009 08:38:43 PM 1718 Views
I can never decide what I think will happen - 24/09/2009 08:44:03 PM 1655 Views
Re: I can never decide what I think will happen - 24/09/2009 09:25:18 PM 1589 Views
I disagree, the Rebels are better protected - 24/09/2009 09:36:19 PM 1652 Views
I agree with you. Rebels are harder to take (rebels have Asha'man too) *NM* - 24/09/2009 09:59:10 PM 994 Views
So do the Tower Reds, only the Seanchan don't know that yet... - 25/09/2009 04:46:17 AM 1499 Views
Yet according to one of Min's visions, Carlinya gets made "property" - 29/09/2009 03:09:28 PM 1446 Views
Re: Yet according to one of Min's visions, Carlinya gets made "property" - 29/09/2009 03:23:45 PM 1572 Views
OK, I didn't remember the details correctly - 29/09/2009 03:38:16 PM 1573 Views
Re: OK, I didn't remember the details correctly - 29/09/2009 04:11:22 PM 1640 Views
Harnan's tattoo is of a hawk, not a raven - 29/09/2009 04:37:27 PM 1659 Views
Oops. Then no other interpretations. - 29/09/2009 04:51:07 PM 1587 Views
Potential for conflicting prophecies? - 26/09/2009 08:49:04 PM 1372 Views
no.. - 26/09/2009 09:12:52 PM 1473 Views
The title of book 13... - 24/09/2009 09:19:17 PM 1461 Views
Swing and a miss. - 24/09/2009 10:33:46 PM 1667 Views
As said - 25/09/2009 06:37:46 AM 1447 Views
Or maybe the fortress in the blight? - 25/09/2009 12:51:05 PM 1510 Views
Yes, those Towers... - 25/09/2009 03:10:40 PM 1577 Views
Seems unlikely to me. - 25/09/2009 01:44:27 PM 1600 Views
Yeah, that's possible. - 25/09/2009 03:11:33 PM 1552 Views
Egwene's surprising decision... - 25/09/2009 08:38:51 PM 1431 Views
I think it's an exaggeration - 25/09/2009 09:01:22 PM 1559 Views
Re: Egwene's surprising decision... - 26/09/2009 12:58:51 AM 1595 Views
The Seanchan attack will happen first - 24/09/2009 10:47:50 PM 1449 Views
I think Egwene is building up an immunity to forkroot. *NM* - 25/09/2009 02:03:58 AM 1011 Views
I'm kinda hoping Mesaana hands them all in a basket to Moridin. - 25/09/2009 02:51:55 AM 1348 Views
Egwene's respect reminds me of Niall's comment to Morgase - 25/09/2009 03:39:19 AM 1498 Views
Both at once, I don't think it will be a neat A then B, or B then A - 25/09/2009 03:53:30 AM 1527 Views
How would they possibly hear of Turan in Arad Doman? - 25/09/2009 02:34:34 PM 1521 Views
Raken - they are used as messengers - 25/09/2009 02:43:29 PM 1465 Views
Egwene... surprised me. It was great. - 24/09/2009 08:49:36 PM 1409 Views
I didn't catch any hints as to Mesaana's identity. Were there any? - 24/09/2009 08:51:23 PM 1481 Views
Katerine is Black Ajah - 24/09/2009 10:48:14 PM 1552 Views
Also... this makes me miss RJ even more - 24/09/2009 08:52:52 PM 1808 Views
I experienced just the opposite - 25/09/2009 06:40:53 AM 1647 Views
Totally disagree - 25/09/2009 06:58:36 AM 1481 Views
This was a truely beautiful chapter *NM* - 24/09/2009 10:22:48 PM 964 Views
Really? - 24/09/2009 11:37:59 PM 1502 Views
Daaayyum - when did Elaida become such a baller/shot caller? - 24/09/2009 11:23:41 PM 1505 Views
In regards to Alviarin. - 25/09/2009 01:32:09 AM 1615 Views
Could Elaida pass a 4th Oath? - 25/09/2009 05:13:08 AM 1539 Views
The Black Ajah would never stand for it, even if the other sisters would - 25/09/2009 06:38:19 AM 1711 Views
And therein lies Elaida's genius... - 25/09/2009 07:08:48 PM 1675 Views
Fain as the source of much of the Tower's woes - 25/09/2009 05:30:49 AM 1510 Views
No one else thinks Fain has had any influence on Elaida's erratic behavior? *NM* - 25/09/2009 05:32:05 PM 998 Views
I agree. Fain is affecting her, for certain. NT *NM* - 28/09/2009 02:30:45 AM 1041 Views
What about Mesaana? - 25/09/2009 06:03:41 PM 1426 Views
Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:34:35 PM 1560 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:38:39 PM 1541 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:40:32 PM 1562 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 04:16:16 PM 1561 Views
We already saw Mat confront Egwene in Salidar. What more - 25/09/2009 04:18:21 PM 1697 Views
Re: We already saw Mat confront Egwene in Salidar. What more - 25/09/2009 04:37:04 PM 1590 Views
That's not his argument though - 25/09/2009 04:34:35 PM 1399 Views
Ah okay. - 25/09/2009 04:36:00 PM 1508 Views
She seemed okay with it in KoD - 25/09/2009 04:38:53 PM 1639 Views
I think... - 25/09/2009 03:47:26 PM 1635 Views
Nice ideas! *NM* - 25/09/2009 03:51:01 PM 1291 Views
That is really good idea - 25/09/2009 08:12:34 PM 1726 Views
Though... - 26/09/2009 01:32:18 PM 1577 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 06:15:56 PM 1394 Views
egwene and elaida's 4th oath - 25/09/2009 03:51:36 PM 1536 Views
Egwene's Hypocrisy here is astounding: - 29/09/2009 03:39:25 AM 1512 Views
Egwene and Mesaana - 25/09/2009 06:07:37 PM 1580 Views
Come now...even though Mesaana is whimpy for a Forsaken, she would wipe the floor with Egwene... - 25/09/2009 06:10:13 PM 1603 Views
Alright, I *may* have overlooked that significant point. - 25/09/2009 06:21:09 PM 1433 Views
Agreed - 26/09/2009 06:36:01 AM 1493 Views
Depends on where the battle takes place. TAR = Egwene win. - 02/10/2009 06:10:07 PM 1601 Views
Egwene would need to lead a circle or use an angreal to beat her. *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:31:42 PM 968 Views
Unless it was based on willpower as in a conflict within Tel'Aran'Rhiod - 25/09/2009 07:19:50 PM 1502 Views
Humph. - 26/09/2009 03:27:09 AM 1458 Views
She was overconfident - 26/09/2009 03:24:51 PM 1499 Views
A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 02:31:36 PM 1734 Views
Re: A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 02:50:49 PM 1520 Views
Re: A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 03:01:06 PM 1464 Views
I don't think it covers things like that - 27/09/2009 04:10:05 PM 1489 Views
She believes what she said *NM* - 28/09/2009 04:51:52 AM 950 Views
Remember, perspective. - 29/09/2009 12:14:59 AM 1402 Views
It might well be true - 29/09/2009 12:38:20 AM 1512 Views
Well... that elicited quite a reaction. - 28/09/2009 06:25:52 AM 1323 Views
I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 05:27:43 PM 1582 Views
Re: I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 06:42:56 PM 1341 Views
Re: I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 1489 Views
I've just learned to skip any female POV's written by RJ - 29/09/2009 04:38:45 AM 1523 Views
Hmmm.... - 29/09/2009 05:30:44 AM 1560 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 29/09/2009 06:26:17 AM 1570 Views
Ridiculous - 30/09/2009 12:34:07 AM 1393 Views
Very. - 30/09/2009 02:40:07 AM 1524 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 30/09/2009 03:00:01 AM 1513 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 30/09/2009 04:32:14 AM 1566 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 01/10/2009 03:23:21 AM 1467 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 01/10/2009 04:51:14 AM 1495 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 03/10/2009 01:57:24 PM 1825 Views
That's Mesaana's purpose actually *NM* - 06/11/2009 07:03:12 AM 916 Views
Elaida, Formidable? - 29/09/2009 11:48:04 PM 1592 Views
How do you figure? - 30/09/2009 12:15:47 AM 1312 Views
Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done? - 30/09/2009 12:35:07 AM 1534 Views
Re: Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done? - 30/09/2009 02:29:37 AM 1424 Views
Broke the Black Ajah's hold on the Amyrlin seat??????? - 30/09/2009 06:09:08 PM 1379 Views
Ignore *NM* - 30/09/2009 06:20:12 PM 927 Views
Oh yeah, and... - 29/09/2009 04:22:57 AM 1643 Views
Egwene in this chapter... - 29/09/2009 05:04:35 AM 1559 Views
Re: Egwene in this chapter... - 29/09/2009 05:59:33 AM 1691 Views
Author thoughts - Audiobook versus reading - 29/09/2009 05:30:39 AM 1528 Views
Yes, I've felt very much the same *NM* - 29/09/2009 12:52:52 PM 1064 Views
A lot of that is the narrator - 29/09/2009 04:36:47 PM 1584 Views
The Dark One's Touch - 30/09/2009 06:21:24 PM 1619 Views
Good point! *NM* - 30/09/2009 06:26:51 PM 983 Views
Re: The Dark One's Touch - 30/09/2009 06:44:53 PM 1411 Views
What about the person who has the ter'angreal dagger? - 30/09/2009 07:11:18 PM 1381 Views
Re: What about the person who has the ter'angreal dagger? - 30/09/2009 07:17:06 PM 1625 Views
The Irony of Elaida - 30/09/2009 11:10:08 PM 1534 Views
LOL, I agree. - 01/10/2009 02:47:18 AM 1491 Views

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