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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. DomA Send a noteboard - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
I don't know if you guys have discussed this yet, but Androl says as much. He mentions that he suspects his Talent is due to being so well Travelled.


It was the inspiration for my first post on the topic, but we got rapidly sidetracked in a chicken vs. egg debate over whether Androl was the type who couldn't stay long in one place because of a latent talent with a weave, or whether in this case the fact he's a great traveller, has developped spacial skills in domains like architecture and engineering, has contributed to what was perhaps a less outstanding natural affinity for Travelling that through mundane skills and knowledge he's honed to something really special.

You pointed out a quote from Maria where she thinks there's predestiny involved, but even though she has access to more material than us to make up her opinion, the fact she "thinks" indicate it's not something stated black on white in the notes (it's probably too general to appear in the notes, RJ knew the answer and either way he's applied the principle to create a great deal of channellers, he didn't need to put that to paper).

In the end it doesn't matter, it's the correlation between personality/mundane skill/knowledge and special field of affinities with the OP that's important, and between Androl and the Wisdoms who've become novices showing great skills to learn the new/real method of healing, the case is pretty strong. Those two occurences (Androl, the novices) are probably not incidental at all, it's rather a clue/sign that understanding of the OP and mundane knowledge is nearing a momenteous breakthrough, that channelers are about to understand channelling is only one aspect, and they need to develop their other skills too to really hone their OP skills, something the AOL Aes Sedai evidently understood (but didn't necessarily applied systematically... we've got two glaring exemples in Moghedien and Aran'gar, two who liked it easy and seemed to have little interest in developping their OP skills.. and who are both without known real Talents - TAR skills excluded, and for Moghedien TAR is largely a matter of avoiding direct challenges...).

If we dig enough, we'd find the evidence (notably in EOTW) that Elayne has always been interested in crafts and understanding how things work (even with more abstract concepts like politics, she's very much a person looking into causes and effects. She's probably a character who inherited RJ's "engineer" mind, thus her talent at making ter'angreal.)

And if we look at Aviendha, we see a person always keen to understand the purpose of everything, a side of her we've seen mostly in play in cultural matters. She's the Aiel always questionning why Wetlanders do this and that the way they do. There's probably a corrolation between that type of personality and her talent to understand the purpose of ter'angreal intuitively.

Interestingly, sisters with a great skill at "old style" Healing, the Heal-All-I-just-won't-let-you-die-on-me Healing are often shown as terribly stubborn, determined, single-minded and quite often they're plain bullies (from Romanda to Moiraine to Suana to Anayia, who were were told refused to budge an inch once she had taken a position. Suana described the Ajah as that of those who wished to repair what's broken, but more often than not good healers are more the type "who know how things should work, and won't give up until they work as they think it should work, and often they get what they want... Romanda is perhaps the epitome of that. People able to compromise or who change their mind too often often suck at Healing... Elayne and Egwene for instance.). People who show skills at the far more complex and really medical minded Restoring skills are different, with a real "calling" for medicine. Nyaneve is a mix of the two in her personality, and she's skilled at both forms of Healing, though she doesn't think much of "battlefield healing", which is a very unnatural concept for someone used to diagnose and find the cause, and apply the specific treatment that will have the desired effect, conscious she has to deal with possible side effects too. Nyaneve diagnoses with Delving. Healers rather used it to judge if their skill at Heal-all was great enough to work, and if the person was strong enough to survive the treament.

I'm pretty sure that without her Wisdom training, Nynaeve would never have made the discoveries she did. Her medical knowledge drove her. As primitive as her knowledge might seem to a modern physician, there was extremely little hocus pocus and superstition in Nynaeve's mundane methods as Wisdom. It's more empirical than anything, but it's still a fairly scientific approach, relying on very elaborate knowledge of active elements found in nature, and a pretty good empirical understanding of a body's working. Even if they have the skills to handle the five flows and make the weaves, a lot of Yellows would have no idea where to begin to use Nynaeve's methods as she relies massively on knowledge that feeds her intuition of how she should tweak the weaves to achieve a specific effect (and very tellingly, she seems to aim to reproduce inconsciously the effect a specific herb would have... still often by using the herb in question in parallel at this stage), and to even come close to her abilities they would need to study with Wisdoms for years to develop their medical knowledge, and that's without saying anything of women like Moiraine for whom the medical field is probably completely foreign.

There's very little doubt Elayne would develop her own skills with ter'angreal by leaps and bounds if she were to study engineering, maths and geometry, chemistry, physics with scholars at the Academies (well... her Cairhienin one anyway, her Andoran one is almost certainly gone and the scholars within lost). It would greatly refine and deepen what she does now by pure intuition and luck. Right now she doesn't understand the complex relationships between shape, matter, color and effect. She's got the mind of engineer, but she'd need real theorical knowledge to become more than a gifted amateur who can copy objects with varying success, and whose experience at that will grow slowly over the years, and reach a point where she can't advance on her own anymore without gaining the theorical knowledge she'd need.

This message last edited by DomA on 09/10/2012 at 05:21:43 PM
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2887 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1460 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1106 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1249 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1400 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1244 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1125 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1165 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1145 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1263 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 937 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1146 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1172 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1253 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1337 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1145 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 587 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1360 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1123 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1304 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1060 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1147 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1180 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1321 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1128 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1163 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1176 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1143 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1222 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1098 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1108 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1169 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1000 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1144 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1372 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1062 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1141 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1080 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1121 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1065 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1183 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1015 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1219 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1147 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1155 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1065 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1036 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1024 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1066 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 929 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 986 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1100 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 954 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1113 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 931 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1051 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1121 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1095 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1124 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1295 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1084 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1005 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 850 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1119 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1044 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1071 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1091 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1056 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1061 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1012 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1048 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 925 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1091 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 992 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1034 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1026 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1035 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1006 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1066 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1065 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1478 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1039 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1049 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1025 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1080 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 467 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1002 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1042 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1143 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1125 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1004 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 769 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1196 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1041 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1034 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1151 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1077 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1087 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1037 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1064 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1113 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 939 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 913 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1010 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1074 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1059 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 683 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1025 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1172 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1002 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1136 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1058 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1029 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1198 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 956 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1452 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1009 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1156 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1114 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1004 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1268 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1068 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1182 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1062 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 947 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1089 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1170 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1101 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1192 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1126 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1145 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 575 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1211 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1126 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1118 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1095 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1067 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1133 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1053 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 930 Views

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