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True Larry Send a noteboard - 09/10/2012 02:54:12 AM

I ask this because when I do an occasional peek-in at this board, most of what I see seems to be arguments regarding fantasy physics than anything approaching a discussion of what the series as a whole would "mean" in regards to thematic issues.

What's to be taken from this series? That an author spent years before his death introducing minutiae for obsessive fans to debate, or is there something else to it?

It'd be interesting to see discussion of potential themes and their possible resolutions here rather than the fantasy physics version of dick size and how one uses it in...umm...opening gateways

This board is dead in all kinds of ways. The only people actively discussing are those who have only discussed "WoT physics" and Egwene with each other, for the most part.

The entire site is pretty much a pale shadow of the wotmania days. But sometimes, when those who are active go so "all in" on the more minute details of the series, it does help to have questions like this, no? Already had some nice responses to this, better than I thought (as I feared some would take the questions the wrong way).

With regards to themes, I still think Jordan's strong suit was the power of knowledge, the mutability of knowledge, etc. A lot of that got scrapped off after the change in authors, of course, but I'm still holding off hope for this theme playing a major role in the endgame of the series. Certainly, if Verin's reveal was not meant to be a one off event, I expect more here.

See what I said above to Dom. Will keep your comments in mind as well.

Frankly, though, I'm fairly certain I'll be disappointed. Partly through the way he plotted the books, and partly through the sheer number of words he threw on page to overcome some egregious mis-plotting, Jodan left a very juicy scenario for the final book(s). We have any number of characters who know only part of the final answer, and I was very much looking forward to these pieces of the puzzle coming together, and the shifts in perspectives among the major characters we'd see. But with Sanderson's treatment of dialogue and character introspection so woefully inadequate to the task, any number of such perspective shifting reveals have simply flown under the radar, with the character's adjustments left to reader imagination.

Yes, I can see that viewpoint. Even with the occasional problems I have with Esslemont's treatment of characters first published in Erikson's works, there's more continuity there than between Jordan/Sanderson.

Another major theme I hope gets a good resolution is the issue of gender imbalance. RJ made some major errors in his presentation of this theme, and ended up diluting it and even degrading it somewhat, as a result. But the underlying elements are still present, and still very interesting. In many ways, they set the series apart (for good or ill). I hope the resolution of this is satisfactory and at least redeems this aspect of the series at least somewhat.

That thematic treatment has become a caricature of itself by this point, alas. I am pessimistic that it'll improve in the finale.

As for wider impact, I think WoT did kind of end up "Finishing" the traditional epic fantasy genre. It served as a transition from the somewhat simpler stories that came before it to more complex narratives, though other series qualify for this, and WoT isn't entirely successful either. That said, I think WoT has a decent future as a series bridging this gap, and if someone figures out a way to make a good abridgment of the series, I can see it continuing to populate bookshelves for quite a while.

Interesting point.

Of course, a good TV series can totally change all that, and if they play it right, and tone down the negative aspects of RJ's handling of gender issues and capitalize on the sheer number of female centric storylines, I can certainly see WoT being marketed as a somewhat distinct fantasy story. Not holding my breath for that, though.

I'm not a cinematic type of reader, so visualizing the story in the TV medium is not something I'm able to do well. But we'll see what the future holds soon, I suspect.

Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.

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So when the book/series ends, what will it have all meant? Larry - 08/10/2012 09:47:49 PM 1907 Views

Years of enjoyment. What else do you expect from fiction? Marshall - 08/10/2012 10:17:30 PM 904 Views

I expect a lot from fiction, to be honest Larry - 09/10/2012 02:43:59 AM 926 Views

HAHAHA! darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 10:17:58 PM 965 Views

Yeah, the use of my time does matter

Larry - 09/10/2012 02:45:15 AM 883 Views

Not sure I'd call it mindless darius_sedai - 09/10/2012 02:53:00 AM 864 Views

Well, it is a bit more complex than a D&D novel

Larry - 09/10/2012 02:55:40 AM 865 Views

I'm not really a huge fiction reader to begin with darius_sedai - 09/10/2012 11:25:34 PM 759 Views

I've noticed that quite a few here/wotmania have not been big fiction (fantasy) readers Larry - 11/10/2012 05:48:02 AM 846 Views

Re: I've noticed that quite a few here/wotmania have not been big fiction (fantasy) readers RugbyPlayingAshaman - 12/10/2012 05:11:20 PM 786 Views

I like the TV series ... It's gritty darius_sedai - 13/10/2012 11:44:06 PM 747 Views

Well... it's a bit late in the game... DomA - 09/10/2012 02:04:16 AM 963 Views

True, but it's never too late to ask people such questions Larry - 09/10/2012 02:49:28 AM 766 Views

I'm not sure... DomA - 09/10/2012 06:03:08 AM 780 Views

Well, we may be in closer agreement then Larry - 09/10/2012 06:43:50 PM 816 Views

Re: Well, we may be in closer agreement then DomA - 09/10/2012 11:08:49 PM 888 Views

Re: Well, we may be in closer agreement then Larry - 11/10/2012 06:14:27 AM 697 Views

Re: I'm not sure... echooff - 11/10/2012 06:15:26 PM 749 Views

There's a reason for this... fionwe1987 - 09/10/2012 02:11:21 AM 864 Views

True Larry - 09/10/2012 02:54:12 AM 897 Views

Re: True DomA - 09/10/2012 06:19:42 AM 775 Views

I am now visualizing WoT as a telenovela adaptation

Larry - 09/10/2012 06:59:11 PM 746 Views

everything about Lanfear screams TeleNovela! darius_sedai - 11/10/2012 04:38:03 AM 694 Views

Por ella, soy Luisa Therin?

Larry - 11/10/2012 05:44:32 AM 774 Views

All of the names would have to be longer and more pompous Tom - 11/10/2012 03:54:30 PM 645 Views

Not in this particular telenovela adaptation Larry - 11/10/2012 05:48:06 PM 993 Views

It is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Tom - 09/10/2012 02:21:20 PM 836 Views

It also has Faulknerian allusions

Larry - 09/10/2012 07:04:55 PM 817 Views

BTW, did you see the Folio Society's color-coded The Sound and the Fury? Tom - 10/10/2012 08:06:18 PM 1045 Views

Re: BTW, did you see the Folio Society's color-coded The Sound and the Fury? DomA - 10/10/2012 09:39:56 PM 787 Views

The One Power doesn't seem that unique or innovative to me. Tom - 11/10/2012 04:05:06 PM 684 Views

No, but I'll keep it in mind for the future when I have more money to spare Larry - 11/10/2012 05:49:52 AM 659 Views

It sold out fast. They might reprint it, though. Tom - 11/10/2012 03:45:20 PM 650 Views

Hopefully, that or it won't be more than $200 when I do have the money to spare Larry - 11/10/2012 05:53:20 PM 853 Views

Re: So when the book/series ends, what will it have all meant? nigelgoboom - 11/10/2012 10:52:01 AM 754 Views

Ah, where would we be without such bright lights like you around? Larry - 11/10/2012 05:59:48 PM 938 Views

It will have meant.. . MightyYT - 11/10/2012 06:59:43 PM 737 Views

So... Larry - 11/10/2012 07:05:41 PM 797 Views

For me, yes. Macharius - 11/10/2012 07:45:25 PM 670 Views

I would think for most the money spent wasn't too bad Larry - 11/10/2012 08:07:49 PM 936 Views

I got my money's worth, oh yes. MightyYT - 12/10/2012 07:59:58 PM 717 Views

I'm not sure it means anything. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/10/2012 08:10:45 PM 868 Views

I'm not sure there is too much meaning ajsr1982 - 15/10/2012 05:57:57 PM 752 Views

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<quote id="263455">
<quote id="263447"><quote id="263426">I ask this because when I do an occasional peek-in at this board, most of what I see seems to be arguments regarding fantasy physics than anything approaching a discussion of what the series as a whole would "mean" in regards to thematic issues.</quote>
<quote id="263447">What's to be taken from this series?  That an author spent years before his death introducing minutiae for obsessive fans to debate, or is there something else to it?</quote>
<quote id="263447">It'd be interesting to see discussion of potential themes and their possible resolutions here rather than the fantasy physics version of dick size and how one uses it in...umm...opening gateways ;)</quote></quote>
<quote id="263447">This board is dead in all kinds of ways. The only people actively discussing are those who have only discussed "WoT physics" and Egwene with each other, for the most part.</quote>

The entire site is pretty much a pale shadow of the wotmania days.  But sometimes, when those who are active go so "all in" on the more minute details of the series, it does help to have questions like this, no?  Already had some nice responses to this, better than I thought (as I feared some would take the questions the wrong way). :D

<quote id="263447">With regards to themes, I still think Jordan's strong suit was the power of knowledge, the mutability of knowledge, etc. A lot of that got scrapped off after the change in authors, of course, but I'm still holding off hope for this theme playing a major role in the endgame of the series. Certainly, if Verin's reveal was not meant to be a one off event, I expect more here.</quote>

See what I said above to Dom.  Will keep your comments in mind as well.

<quote id="263447">Frankly, though, I'm fairly certain I'll be disappointed. Partly through the way he plotted the books, and partly through the sheer number of words he threw on page to overcome some egregious mis-plotting, Jodan left a very juicy scenario for the final book(s). We have any number of characters who know only part of the final answer, and I was very much looking forward to these pieces of the puzzle coming together, and the shifts in perspectives among the major characters we'd see. But with Sanderson's treatment of  dialogue and character introspection so woefully inadequate to the task, any number of such perspective shifting reveals have simply flown under the radar, with the character's adjustments left to reader imagination.</quote>

Yes, I can see that viewpoint.  Even with the occasional problems I have with Esslemont's treatment of characters first published in Erikson's works, there's more continuity there than between Jordan/Sanderson.

<quote id="263447">Another major theme I hope gets a good resolution is the issue of gender imbalance. RJ made some major errors in his presentation of this theme, and ended up diluting it and even degrading it somewhat, as a result. But the underlying elements are still present, and still very interesting. In many ways, they set the series apart (for good or ill). I hope the resolution of this is satisfactory and at least redeems this aspect of the series at least somewhat.</quote>

That thematic treatment has become a caricature of itself by this point, alas.  I am pessimistic that it'll improve in the finale.

<quote id="263447">As for wider impact, I think WoT did kind of end up "Finishing" the traditional epic fantasy genre. It served as a transition from the somewhat simpler stories that came before it to more complex narratives, though other series qualify for this, and WoT isn't entirely successful either. That said, I think WoT has a decent future as a series bridging this gap, and if someone figures out a way to make a good abridgment of the series, I can see it continuing to populate bookshelves for quite a while. </quote>

Interesting point.

<quote id="263447">Of course, a good TV series can totally change all that, and if they play it right, and tone down the negative aspects of RJ's handling of gender issues and capitalize on the sheer number of female centric storylines, I can certainly see WoT being marketed as a somewhat distinct fantasy story. Not holding my breath for that, though.</quote>

I'm not a cinematic type of reader, so visualizing the story in the TV medium is not something I'm able to do well.  But we'll see what the future holds soon, I suspect.
</quote>

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