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Highly doubtful... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
Egwene makes it clear when she uses Vora's wand that few women had ever held such power. Which makes no sense if any leader of a circle of 13 came close. For comparison, Rand says that with Callandor, he can match the strength of hundred or more men. Since the wand is the Tower's strongest, it must at least be giving you half that boost, and likely more than that.


That Gateway is well beyond a circle being able to shield 1 woman with a powerful sa'angreal. Of course what you say here is pretty much the same thing I'm getting at and flies in the face of the RJ quote. All this conversation really bears out is that circles do exponentially increase the abilities of those in them. Perhaps not directly mapping to Talents and flow strength, but it's also clear that there is more to it than simply seeing increased strength and precision.

Why? Why do you need an explanation beyond an exponential increase in precision?
From these effects no individual should be able to hold up to even a small circle and we know that is false from the Cleansing. Damer, Corele and Sarene barely match Demandred, despite being a mixed circle of relatively strong individuals. Cumulatively their strength would add up to close to Demandred, in a link with the amount of bonus we are seeing they should have crushed him in seconds. And Verin's team with an angreal could not even shield Graendal. Huge disconnect IMHO

No use arguing the quote at this point, but I wonder if he would say the same thing now.

The Cleansing proves two things: Strength and precision are great, but knowledge makes a ton of difference too. Add to that, Damer was hardly practiced at sing mixed links. Or links of any sort. Demandred says Damer's flows were hitting him as hard as his own would have, which makes no sense given the strength of those in the circle. Seems to me that Damer was underutilizing the abilities of the circle.

With Verin, she just couldn't see Graendal's weaves, and was put on the defensive right away. And we've seen that Granedal is extremely quick with the Power. Plus she had an angreal.
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Problems with gateways Narg - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2999 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM* Tom - 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM 708 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd... Narg - 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM 1197 Views
It's been discussed before... DomA - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1558 Views
I would agree with this A Deathwatch Guard - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1205 Views
Re: I would agree with this DomA - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1341 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well darius_sedai - 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM 1335 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too) Onarishma - 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM 1218 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: Narg - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1517 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? darius_sedai - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1325 Views
There is echooff - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1217 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? Marshall - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1255 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? DomA - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1247 Views
Here's a neat idea Marshall - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1366 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1041 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it Sidious - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1247 Views
Absurd question... fionwe1987 - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1271 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? Sidious - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1345 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... fionwe1987 - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1440 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... LoialT - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1270 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* Dreadlord - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 636 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... DomA - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1480 Views
Androl throws a kink in this darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1229 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this DomA - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1409 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1152 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say Sidious - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1258 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1280 Views
No I think they're more about strength Sidious - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1408 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1278 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this Sidious - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1257 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this fionwe1987 - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1279 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this Sidious - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1227 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn darius_sedai - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1319 Views
She did Heal him Sidious - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1187 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. Onarishma - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1195 Views
Re-read some stuff darius_sedai - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1281 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff Sidious - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1147 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? darius_sedai - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1254 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct darius_sedai - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1468 Views
But his thought processes are sound Sidious - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1169 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS darius_sedai - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1250 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS Sidious - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1167 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? darius_sedai - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1207 Views
Ummm... fionwe1987 - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1151 Views
Re: Ummm... Sidious - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1270 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1108 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind DomA - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1331 Views
I wasn't being very clear darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1246 Views
I think he did Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1248 Views
Maybe darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1158 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1155 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1136 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! Onarishma - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1156 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough darius_sedai - 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM 1134 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM 1165 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM 1090 Views
Exactly... fionwe1987 - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1047 Views
Re: Exactly... Sidious - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1077 Views
Re: Exactly... fionwe1987 - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1188 Views
AND... darius_sedai - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1048 Views
Re: AND... Sidious - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1228 Views
Again THANK YOU! Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1016 Views
Re: AND... darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1149 Views
Re: AND... Sidious - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1209 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect darius_sedai - 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM 1146 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it Sidious - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1235 Views
TY!!! Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1242 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1408 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise Sidious - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1178 Views
Are you reading mine? darius_sedai - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1110 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 969 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1215 Views
THANK YOU!!! Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1137 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct Onarishma - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1184 Views
to the point on the Circle darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1211 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1157 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1162 Views
I've been thinking about this darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1104 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1141 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1010 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... fionwe1987 - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1193 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1110 Views
Highly doubtful... fionwe1987 - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1149 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1107 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1145 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1105 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous Onarishma - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1165 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1176 Views
the text is not inconsistent. Onarishma - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1617 Views
I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that! darius_sedai - 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM 1260 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level Onarishma - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1161 Views
Not so much darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1161 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM 1200 Views
I've given this point some thought too ... It's a dicey subject darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:22:23 AM 1061 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM 1033 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM 1133 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle Onarishma - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1133 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1164 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* Onarishma - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 509 Views
Didn't I just say that? darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1088 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... Onarishma - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1180 Views
There is so much evidence against this darius_sedai - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1247 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. Onarishma - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1259 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. fionwe1987 - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1097 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 817 Views
He's referring to skimming Sidious - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1287 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1141 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1131 Views
We are close enough on this point darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1269 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. Onarishma - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1176 Views
Please explain Androl then darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1185 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1154 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent darius_sedai - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1188 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... Onarishma - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1223 Views
No it's not darius_sedai - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1043 Views
fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 999 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM 1181 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM 1155 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within Onarishma - 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM 1319 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? darius_sedai - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1104 Views
How do you know there's a difference? Sidious - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1169 Views
darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1150 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* Onarishma - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 729 Views
Not really darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1128 Views
I agree with this PoV Sidious - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1303 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1117 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1237 Views
I disagree darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1141 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there DomA - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1140 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem darius_sedai - 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM 1097 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... Onarishma - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1310 Views
That has no relevance here darius_sedai - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1061 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1588 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM 1132 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1098 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. DomA - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1253 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM 1184 Views
I noticed that... fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1257 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1115 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. DomA - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1379 Views
On Healing and Yellows... fionwe1987 - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1162 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... DomA - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1280 Views
True darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1171 Views
Life skills and OP skills... fionwe1987 - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1063 Views
Or the reverse could be true darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1224 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true Sidious - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1258 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1184 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time DomA - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1309 Views
The point is the same regardless darius_sedai - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1204 Views
Here's an answer to your original question Sidious - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1263 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 618 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true DomA - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1312 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1225 Views
I know DomA - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1251 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1209 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented. Onarishma - 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM 1193 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... fionwe1987 - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1198 Views
Trollocs have dreams Onarishma - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1262 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... DomA - 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM 1232 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology? LoialT - 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM 1243 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology? DomA - 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM 1399 Views
XKCD is on the case! Tor - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1151 Views
Re: Problems with gateways Onarishma - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1035 Views
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