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Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
Those 4 women combined are likely close to Beonin, at least in the ball park ... She creates a gateway about 1/3 the size of Rands. Seems like a nice bonus to equal Rand with the precision bonus. I buy that completely.

But to have 13 AS who might be 5x (on the high side) Rands strength create a gateway 65x the size of his maximum seems beyond extreme ... It would mean the precision bonus of the circle added more than 20x to the Gateway. That assuming these were 13 very strong AS ... Furthermore, how could Rand break a Shield held by multiple women if the precision bonus is so powerful?

Thanks for providing the quote by the way

This was a circle of thirteen. That is supposed to be strong enough to shield Egwene with Vora's wand, which is also going to require a huger boost than 13X the normal sister's strength.

Circles really do seem to add more to what can be achieved the larger they are when its women-only circles. Male-female, the balance between men and women seems more important, with circles of six men and six women outperforming a circle of 72 in some cases.


That Gateway is well beyond a circle being able to shield 1 woman with a powerful sa'angreal. Of course what you say here is pretty much the same thing I'm getting at and flies in the face of the RJ quote. All this conversation really bears out is that circles do exponentially increase the abilities of those in them. Perhaps not directly mapping to Talents and flow strength, but it's also clear that there is more to it than simply seeing increased strength and precision.

From these effects no individual should be able to hold up to even a small circle and we know that is false from the Cleansing. Damer, Corele and Sarene barely match Demandred, despite being a mixed circle of relatively strong individuals. Cumulatively their strength would add up to close to Demandred, in a link with the amount of bonus we are seeing they should have crushed him in seconds. And Verin's team with an angreal could not even shield Graendal. Huge disconnect IMHO

No use arguing the quote at this point, but I wonder if he would say the same thing now.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2887 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1460 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1105 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1248 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1400 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1243 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1125 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1165 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1145 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1263 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 937 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1146 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1171 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1253 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1336 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1145 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 586 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1359 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1122 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1303 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1059 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1146 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1179 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1320 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1128 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1163 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1176 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1143 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1222 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1097 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1107 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1169 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1000 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1144 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1372 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1062 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1141 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1080 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1121 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1064 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1183 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1014 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1218 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1146 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1155 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1065 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1036 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1024 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1066 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 929 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 985 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1099 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 954 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1112 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 931 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1050 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1121 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1095 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1124 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1294 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1083 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1005 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 850 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1118 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1043 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1071 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1091 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1056 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1060 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1012 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1048 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 925 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1091 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 992 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1034 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1025 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1034 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1006 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1066 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1065 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1477 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1038 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1049 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1025 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1080 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 466 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1002 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1042 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1143 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1125 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1003 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 769 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1195 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1040 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1034 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1150 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1077 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1087 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1036 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1064 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1113 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 938 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 913 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1009 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1074 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1058 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 683 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1024 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1171 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1002 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1135 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1058 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1029 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1198 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 956 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1452 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1009 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1156 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1114 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1003 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1267 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1068 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1182 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1061 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 947 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1089 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1170 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1101 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1191 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1126 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1145 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 575 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1211 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1126 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1117 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1095 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1066 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1133 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1053 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 930 Views

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