Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
Beonin:
Knife of Dreams
Chapter Two
The Dark One’s Touch
As soon as Tervail let the canvas fall, she embraced saidar and wove Spirit almost caressingly. This weave fascinated her. a rediscovery of something thought lost forever and surely the greatest of Egwene al’-Veres discoveries. Every time she wove it she felt a sense of wonder, so familiar as novice and even Accepted, that had not come to her since she attained the shawl. Something new and marvelous. The vertical silvery line appeared in front of her, right atop the scoring on the ground. and suddenly became a gap that widened, the view through appearing to rotate until she was faced by a square hole in the air, more than two paces by two, that showed snow-draped oaks with heavy spreading limbs.
for argument sake we can call this 7 feet by 7 feet (1 span = 3 feet) since it's a little more than 2 paces x 2 paces
Here is the largest one we've seen from Egwene:
A Crown of Swords
Chapter 12
A Morning Of Victory
Weaving a gateway where he had been practicing the sword, a good eight feet by eight, she stepped through onto what seemed to be a ferry, floating in darkness that stretched forever.
So Egwene creates a gateway approximately 30% larger than Beonin can ... that's nice until you realize that Beonin is no stronger than Melaine who is approximately half of Egwene's strength. Either Egwene should be able to create a gateway that is 10 feet x 10 feet (which makes her like 70% Rand's strength) ... clearly we would have seen that by now if she could pull it off. Alternatively Beonin at her strength level should only be able to create a gate way about 5.75 feet x 5.75 feet if she was of "average" Talent.
I would also state it is highly unlikely that Egwene has a weak Traveling Talent since she discovered the weave for women and that seems highly unlikely if she did not possess a good strong talent for it.
Rand Quote
Chapter 54
To Caemlyn
The gateway appeared at the foot of the steps, first a bright line that seemed to turn, opening into a square hole into blackness four paces wide. Not a murmur came from the Aiel. Those beyond would be able to see him as through a smoked glass, a dusky shimmering in the air, but they could as well try walking through one of the palace walls. From the side, the gateway would be invisible except to the few close enough to see what might seem a long, fine hair drawn tight.
Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.
I acknowledge that you can make at least a couple of arguments here ... Neither woman looks to have strained to create their gateways so we can even be sure these are as large as either woman can manage. But this is what we have to go on. I'm inclined to think Egwene could produce a somewhat larger gateway than she did in this scene. It was, after all, for only her and Lan ... and you could just as easily argue that Beonin showed no strain and only had 2 people to Travel with as well.
But based on Aviendha's gateway in TPoD I suspect Egwene can create one of at least 9x9 since she is stronger than Aviendha in current strength..
The Path of Daggers
Chapter 1
To Keep The Bargain
Aviendha focused, and the flows wove together, creating identity between this place and the place she and Elayne and Nynaeve had chosen on a map. She gestured as though opening tentflaps. That was no part of the weave Elayne had taught her, but it was almost all she could recall of what she herself had done, long before Egwene made her first gateway. The flows coalesced into a silvery, vertical slash that rotated and became an opening in the air, taller than a man and just as wide. Beyond lay a large clearing surrounded by trees twenty or thirty feet high, miles north of the City, on the far side of the river. Knee-high brown grass came right up to the gateway, swaying through in a small breeze; it had not truly turned, only seemed to. Some of those blades were sliced cleanly, though, some lengthwise. The edges of an opening gateway made a razor seem dull.
The gateway filled her with dissatisfaction. Elayne could make this weave with only a part of her strength, yet for some reason it required all but a fraction of Aviendha’s. She was sure she could have woven a larger, as large as Elayne could, using the weaves she had made without thought while trying to escape Rand al’Thor what seemed a very long time ago, but no matter how often she tried, only scraps came back to her. She felt no envy – rather, she took pride in her near-sister’s accomplishments – but her own failure made shame surge in her heart. Sorilea or Amys would be hard on her, if they knew that. About the shame. Too much pride, they would call it. Amys should understand; she had been a Maiden. There wasshame in failing at what you should be able to do. If she had not had to hold the weave, she would have run away so no one could see her.
Given Aviendha's perspective on how tall a man should be that makes this gate way at least 7x7 and she says Elayne can create a larger and thinks she should be able to as well if she could remember her original Weave. That means Elayne potentially has a Stronger Talent for Traveling than Egwene (because she is currently weaker) or that Egwene can create a larger than 8x8 gateway. Or both!
Knife of Dreams
Chapter Two
The Dark One’s Touch
As soon as Tervail let the canvas fall, she embraced saidar and wove Spirit almost caressingly. This weave fascinated her. a rediscovery of something thought lost forever and surely the greatest of Egwene al’-Veres discoveries. Every time she wove it she felt a sense of wonder, so familiar as novice and even Accepted, that had not come to her since she attained the shawl. Something new and marvelous. The vertical silvery line appeared in front of her, right atop the scoring on the ground. and suddenly became a gap that widened, the view through appearing to rotate until she was faced by a square hole in the air, more than two paces by two, that showed snow-draped oaks with heavy spreading limbs.
for argument sake we can call this 7 feet by 7 feet (1 span = 3 feet) since it's a little more than 2 paces x 2 paces
Here is the largest one we've seen from Egwene:
A Crown of Swords
Chapter 12
A Morning Of Victory
Weaving a gateway where he had been practicing the sword, a good eight feet by eight, she stepped through onto what seemed to be a ferry, floating in darkness that stretched forever.
So Egwene creates a gateway approximately 30% larger than Beonin can ... that's nice until you realize that Beonin is no stronger than Melaine who is approximately half of Egwene's strength. Either Egwene should be able to create a gateway that is 10 feet x 10 feet (which makes her like 70% Rand's strength) ... clearly we would have seen that by now if she could pull it off. Alternatively Beonin at her strength level should only be able to create a gate way about 5.75 feet x 5.75 feet if she was of "average" Talent.
I would also state it is highly unlikely that Egwene has a weak Traveling Talent since she discovered the weave for women and that seems highly unlikely if she did not possess a good strong talent for it.
Rand Quote
Chapter 54
To Caemlyn
The gateway appeared at the foot of the steps, first a bright line that seemed to turn, opening into a square hole into blackness four paces wide. Not a murmur came from the Aiel. Those beyond would be able to see him as through a smoked glass, a dusky shimmering in the air, but they could as well try walking through one of the palace walls. From the side, the gateway would be invisible except to the few close enough to see what might seem a long, fine hair drawn tight.
Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.
I acknowledge that you can make at least a couple of arguments here ... Neither woman looks to have strained to create their gateways so we can even be sure these are as large as either woman can manage. But this is what we have to go on. I'm inclined to think Egwene could produce a somewhat larger gateway than she did in this scene. It was, after all, for only her and Lan ... and you could just as easily argue that Beonin showed no strain and only had 2 people to Travel with as well.
But based on Aviendha's gateway in TPoD I suspect Egwene can create one of at least 9x9 since she is stronger than Aviendha in current strength..
The Path of Daggers
Chapter 1
To Keep The Bargain
Aviendha focused, and the flows wove together, creating identity between this place and the place she and Elayne and Nynaeve had chosen on a map. She gestured as though opening tentflaps. That was no part of the weave Elayne had taught her, but it was almost all she could recall of what she herself had done, long before Egwene made her first gateway. The flows coalesced into a silvery, vertical slash that rotated and became an opening in the air, taller than a man and just as wide. Beyond lay a large clearing surrounded by trees twenty or thirty feet high, miles north of the City, on the far side of the river. Knee-high brown grass came right up to the gateway, swaying through in a small breeze; it had not truly turned, only seemed to. Some of those blades were sliced cleanly, though, some lengthwise. The edges of an opening gateway made a razor seem dull.
The gateway filled her with dissatisfaction. Elayne could make this weave with only a part of her strength, yet for some reason it required all but a fraction of Aviendha’s. She was sure she could have woven a larger, as large as Elayne could, using the weaves she had made without thought while trying to escape Rand al’Thor what seemed a very long time ago, but no matter how often she tried, only scraps came back to her. She felt no envy – rather, she took pride in her near-sister’s accomplishments – but her own failure made shame surge in her heart. Sorilea or Amys would be hard on her, if they knew that. About the shame. Too much pride, they would call it. Amys should understand; she had been a Maiden. There wasshame in failing at what you should be able to do. If she had not had to hold the weave, she would have run away so no one could see her.
Given Aviendha's perspective on how tall a man should be that makes this gate way at least 7x7 and she says Elayne can create a larger and thinks she should be able to as well if she could remember her original Weave. That means Elayne potentially has a Stronger Talent for Traveling than Egwene (because she is currently weaker) or that Egwene can create a larger than 8x8 gateway. Or both!
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 06/10/2012 at 11:27:03 PM
- Edit 8 by darius_sedai on 06/10/2012 at 11:27:03 PM
- Edit 7 by darius_sedai on 06/10/2012 at 11:26:29 PM
- Edit 6 by darius_sedai on 06/10/2012 at 11:26:03 PM
- Edit 5 by darius_sedai on 06/10/2012 at 11:25:26 PM
- Edit 4 by darius_sedai on 06/10/2012 at 10:57:31 PM
- Edit 3 by darius_sedai on 06/10/2012 at 10:56:29 PM
- Edit 2 by darius_sedai on 06/10/2012 at 10:49:05 PM
- Edit 1 by darius_sedai on 06/10/2012 at 08:36:12 PM
Problems with gateways
28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
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Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
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Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
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It's been discussed before...
28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
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I would agree with this
28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
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Re: I would agree with this
28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
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Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
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Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
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Regarding shadowspawn:
28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
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Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
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I don't think RJ thought about it
28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
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Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
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Androl throws a kink in this
02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
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Re: Androl throws a kink in this
02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
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He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
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Gateway Talent I'd say
02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
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I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
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No I think they're more about strength
02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
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I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
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Egwene could not heal Gawyn
03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
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She did Heal him
04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
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Re-read some stuff
04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
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Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
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But his thought processes are sound
04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
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It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
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Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
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Ummm...
05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
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Re: Ummm...
06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
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I don't think RJ changed his mind
06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
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I think he did
08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
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She wouldn't have to guess!
09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
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Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
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There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
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I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
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Exactly...
10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
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Re: Exactly...
10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
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Re: Exactly...
10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
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AND...
10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
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Re: AND...
11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
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Re: AND...
12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
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Re: AND...
12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
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I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
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Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
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You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
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Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
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Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
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the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
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Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
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to the point on the Circle
06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
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Circles don't add the Talents...
07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
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I've been thinking about this
07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
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Circles give added precision, remember?
07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
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I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
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Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
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Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
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Highly doubtful...
08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
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Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
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Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
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That is actually the crux of my issue
08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
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That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
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Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
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the text is not inconsistent.
19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
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I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
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RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
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I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
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THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
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It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
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Re: to the point on the Circle
07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
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Healing is a thing of the physical body
07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
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Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
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That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
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There is so much evidence against this
04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
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Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
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Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
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He's referring to skimming
06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
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I think we aren't far off in interpretation
06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
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Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
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Please explain Androl then
07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
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OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
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You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
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07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
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i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
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I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
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I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
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How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
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the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
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I agree with this PoV
06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
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Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
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I think you use the word Talent too liberally
08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
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I disagree
08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
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I sort of agree with Sidious there
09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
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Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
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Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
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Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
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Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
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Life skills and OP skills...
02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
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Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
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And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
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Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
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The point is the same regardless
03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
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You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
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weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
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Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
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Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
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