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I don't think RJ changed his mind darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM

For books and books, we had people tell us men were stronger than women, and women needed circles to match men. Then RJ gave us the real answer and blew that misconception among the channelers into the garbage can. Why wouldn't he do the same thing here?

We still don't know what is going on there, and the most likely explanation is that RJ changed his mind. Moghedien tells Nynaeve that men are stronger in the Power. There can be no ignorance there, and yet we know that it isn't true in practice.

And that's okay, because Logain doesn't care about exact strength, or strength distribution. But we do. We have to be scientific and accurate, because we're trying to do something Logain has no interest in. Logain cares how effective people are at their tasks, and he had Androl promoted because he can Travel with extraordinary ease. But we're not into promoting Asha'man. We want to know exactly how strong they are, and how to figure out their strength. Comments from Flinn, Rand and Aviendha, as well as the Gateways of Androl and Reanne (Beonin too), prove that Gateway size is not a good indicator of exact strength. RJ even had Pevara make this mistake, in KoD, when she thought that they should bond men who make larger Gateways since they'll be stronger. Then who pops into her house and is likely to be her Warder? Androl.

Well I'm more like Logain I'm afraid, not a scientist in that sense. I don't think anyone has ever said that gateways can express exact strength but they give a good indication in most cases, like most weaves that are strength dependent. If you judged a channeler on who they can shield you'd probably be right in many cases too. You'd see that Nynaeve can shield most women therefore Nynaeve must be strong in the Power. However, if you get caught out by Berowin, you're caught out. Like with Androl. We don't live in a test tube.... Logain's thought processes are human, practical and mostly reliable. If Red Ajah bond the biggest gateway Ash'aman they will get the nine strongest men in the BT and Androl.

Lanfear is also the only woman we've seen with that strength, remember? That you'd naturally pick one outlier instead of another shows the lack of scientific rigor in your process, no? The right way is to judge the woman's OP strength AND her Talent at shielding. Not ignore one or the other just because it mostly works.

Lanfear and Rand are bad examples for the general population of channeling. You can rather apply it to weaker channelers. Cadsuane would think that Sorilea must be almost as strong as her to hold her, she wouldn't likely think of a shielding Talent.


I think it still holds that men have more strength than women. But it's also obvious how little that matters on an effectiveness scale. Lanfear in Raw terms could be a lot weaker than Rand, but clearly was more than his equal when they faced off ... Graendal shielded Aran'gar with ease because she was more "effectively strong". It is doubtful that any man could simply overwhelm Graendal with just raw strength (unless he caught her by surprise), she can too easily slice his flows or otherwise defend herself because she knows how to fight off an attack from an assailant who's flows she cannot see. She alludes to this when contemplating attacking Sammael, and it's ultimately why she knows she will lose since she was not already holding the Power she knew he had the clear advantage.

Where this probably matters at the moment is with the modern Channelers ... An average Asha'man will have a lot more raw strength than an average AS, but because they are not particularly well trained I don't think the effectiveness bonus a woman has is as prominent as it is with the AoL Channelers. Most modern AS have no experience facing any kind of fight, look how poorly they did against the Seanchan, now fighting a man whose flows are invisible to them and without training for it? Raw strength is almost always going to come out on top in that scenario. And I think we've seen that bear out in the text often enough. It's one of the reasons the AS look so weak IMO ... We only really see them on raw strength scales most of the time because they aren't well trained.

I believe only Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha and Cadsuane are capable of overcoming the strength gap at the moment. Which may not even be an issue for them as I would bet they are each at least as strong as an "average" man in raw terms.

I think it was Shannow who had a whole theory about gateway size and strength a while back ... There was a bunch of posts around it ... possibly in the wotmania days.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 06/10/2012 at 03:45:59 PM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1163 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1176 Views
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Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1064 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1183 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1015 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1218 Views
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Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1100 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 954 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1112 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 931 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1050 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1121 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1095 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1124 Views
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Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1083 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1005 Views
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THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1043 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1071 Views
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Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1048 Views
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Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1091 Views
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Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1034 Views
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Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1035 Views
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I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1029 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1198 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 956 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1452 Views
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1156 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1114 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1003 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1267 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1068 Views
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True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1062 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 947 Views
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And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1101 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1191 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1126 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1145 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 575 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1211 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1126 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1117 Views
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Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1133 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1053 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 930 Views

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