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Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct Onarishma Send a noteboard - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
By your account Logain would also judged Berowin as stronger than Nynaeve because she may be able to Shield him alone. That would be quiet the misconception. And in the case of two men who who are close in strength such as Rand and Logain (who it would be difficult to establish which is actually stronger from casual observation) Logain's statement is stupid. He's seen with his own eyes that a MUCH weak man, Androl, can make gateways on par with Rand so he clearly knows there is more to a gateway's size than simply the strength of the Channeler.

Where is your evidence that the Talent is rare? By all accounts in the books the Talent is actually abundant! We've seen that nearly all Channelers can Travel and we've heard that at least some, Flinn, have difficulty with it... IIRC Flinn should be able to make a larger gateway than he can. This example is probably meant to show is that Talent, or lack of it HAS an effect on Traveling and it goes both directions. There is a quote about "him not being like Androl" in there somewhere. Certainly strength is a factor, but Talent is much more likely the driver on gateway size (I think it's something of a multiplier ... Androl gets a +500% while Rand gets a +25% type of thing). Androl is clearly an outlier in his ability, but that ability illustrates the point that the Talent is what is important. It may be possible that a different weave would enable weaker Channelers to Travel.

Regardless Androl's ability proves that you cannot judge a Channelers strength by the size of a gateway.

Certainly Channelers link to achieve certain feats, but Talent with a flow would be a part of a link and we know in the AoL (BWB commentary) that strength was not the biggest factor in being chosen for a circle, rather ability was. Thus a man like Androl may have been attached to circles for mass transit, or Berowin for shielding etc ... It isn't their strength that is needed, it's their Talent.

Strength in a flow doesn't necessarily mean someone can channel more volume of that power than other flows, merely that they have a more refined touch with it or that it is "natural" to them. It's not like Egwene can channel 5x more Earth than she can Air ... Just that her Earth flows are much more pure than others. Kairen and Leane are two of the weakest AS in the Tower, yet they had more ability with making Cuendillar than anyone except Egwene. Strength was not the overcoming factor there as Nicola was likely stronger than either of these women at the time and Bode may well have been as well. Why weren't Romanda or Lelaine making it? By your rationale as stronger Channelers they should be able to compensate for their lack of Talent or flow affinity by adding power ... Romanda and Lelaine are about 3x the strength of Leane and Kairen, certainly they should be able to channel more volume of Earth into a weave ... Or why not simple secure angreal for Leane and Kairen and send them to the harbor chain? Likely because more Power wasn't what the needed.


I think you all are missing the point. Every weave can be executed by a channeler. Even Sorilea can draw the weave for Traveling if not power it. After the weave is drawn with enough power to activate it THEN Talent comes in to play. However strength IS "talent" in almost every instance otherwise every weave would be evaluated based on Talent. Where strength is not most often listed as the predominate factor is where the weaves require are usually both "weak" and have to be adjusted. Healing Talent is your ability to adjust a pretty simple weave to accommodate the various afflictions and biology of the person you are using it on. The Yellow sister who compared her ability to that of a full circle to modulate the weave makes it clear that with enough power less talented individual in a circle could match her but not only would they be using more power but they would now have the bizarre precision amplification of a circle. Take the Healing of Mat led by Suian. Her Talent is marginal and those in the circle possessed no special Talent that we know of so there IS proof that enough power and a circle can match a Talent. It is likely that that Yellow sister might have been able to Heal Mat on her own though she may have been dismally unable to shield the dagger or restrain Mat at the same time. Besides that I think the more specific weaves of the Age of Legends probably requires less "Talents" than today's single weave, weaves that were strength based would probably have been easier to train even though it would have required specialized training on when to use what weave and where. The Cuiendillar Talent on the other hand requires the ability to understand how to change change one form of matter into another. Considering that Egwene's talent in Earth allowed her to sense that iron existed without weaving a single flow it stands to reason that her Talent with cuiendillar is both a matter of understanding the nature of matter as well as being able to channel Earth more efficiently and strongly.

We have yet to ascertain weather "strong" in a power is the ability to convert a percentage of the One Power into Earth and the other powers or if strong in a power means your total strength in the Power is composed of Earth and the other powers added together. In one scenario one could be Rand's strength and still be weak in Earth in the other you'd have to be strong in all five powers in order to reach the maximum strength.

Talents fall into three categories. Receptive like feeling ore in the ground or Fortelling, Modulating meaning being able to make a weave perform more efficiently and Affinity meaning that only one power is in play and that THEN your strength in that power determines how much you can power the weave.

Receptive Talents have no reflection on your natural strength.
Morgase could have the most powerful Fortelling

Modulating Talents also have little reflection on your actual strength but can be duplicated by the multi-mind of a circle.
Something like modern Healing WAS only intended for bruises. So Egwene and Elayne are not defective they can make the weave work as it was intended. Modern AS discovered they could use that bruise weave for other effects if they were Talented enough to modulate the weave.

Affinity Talents do reflect on your strength in a power no matter which theory of "strong" in a power is true. In the case of "must be strong in all" Rand should be great at making cueindillar since he is strong in all five powers. However if Strength in the power is a percentage of your power you can convert then we may be surprised to discover that Lanfear couldn't do the same if she were say only able to convert 1% of her strength into Earth. She would need a appropriate angreal to match even the weakest of channelers. Or if she was only 20% she might have to use her whole strength so to speak to accomplish that one weave but she would accomplish it.

Lets be honest most weaves are subject to both Modulating Talent and Affinity Talent. However their composition and use are key factors in which kind of Talent is predominate. The fewer powers involved the more Affinity is key the more powers involved the more Modulating is key. We have been told often that strength in Spirit is generally equal across sexes and presumably equal within a sex. So weaves that only require Spirit are likely to have EQUAL levels of Affinity Talent that correspond directly to your basic power strength. So in most people shielding and gateways are directly related to your basic power strength because they are limited to one power, the most equanimous, Spirit, and so most people are "Talented" according to their strength. Strength in Spirit equaling base strength, unlike Earth, Fire, Air and Water which are more variable. However Modulating Talent is the ability to modulate a weave after reaching activation strength. Making a bruise weave heal a Fades cut requires a LOT of modulation. And as Nynaeve proves with Berowin so does shielding. She doesn't hit a solid wall like she does with Talaan she pushes into something that flexes. In that instance she is able to recognize the weakness of the material (Berowin's strength) and the stability of the weave (Berowin's Talent). Most shields are only based on the strength of the channeler and the (mostly) universally proportional Affinity Talent of Spirit.

So where does Traveling fall in this? Well it is a Spirit only weave so if falls into the category of the Universal Affinity Talent like all Spirit weaves. So strength in power equals strength in Spirit equals strength/effect of weave. Then because the basic Talent is universal only Modulating Talent is recognizable because it exceeds the basic Talent. Androl has a Modulating Talent for Gateways. Which means he can exceed his natural Affinity Talent because he can manipulate the shape of the weave. However this has no bearing on the fact that Affinity Talent for Gateways is an accurate indication of base strength. Moreover Shielding is the only other Spirit only weave we know of and that has also been accurately linked to One Power strength due to Universal Affinity Talent.

On an aside not all channelers can make the channeling weave. Most AS can not because they are not strong enough. But more importantly females can both see the effect of the weave and discern the strength of the channeler. THEY have identified that Gateway size is a direct correlation to strength UNLESS a Modulating Talent is involved.
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2805 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1352 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1019 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1163 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1300 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1154 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1030 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1073 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1052 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1194 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 840 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1053 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1079 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1152 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1252 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1062 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 546 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1270 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1045 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1215 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 963 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1061 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1096 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1230 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1032 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1073 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1085 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1051 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1127 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1018 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1030 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1080 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 905 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1065 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1285 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 963 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1057 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 986 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1025 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 982 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1091 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 926 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1136 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1061 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1060 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 976 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 936 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 930 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 963 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 843 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 902 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1008 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 873 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1024 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 850 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 970 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1006 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1015 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1038 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1197 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 991 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 919 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 764 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1028 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 961 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 964 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1011 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 965 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 966 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 923 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 964 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 835 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1015 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 910 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 951 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 930 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 941 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 920 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 966 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 964 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1419 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 951 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 955 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 937 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 981 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 441 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 925 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 960 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1050 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1042 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 918 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 735 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1101 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 955 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 946 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1053 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 989 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1009 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 958 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 974 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1021 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 850 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 832 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 930 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 996 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 979 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 652 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 943 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1085 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 915 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1043 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 974 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 946 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1107 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 875 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1360 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 921 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1064 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1026 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 922 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1157 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 981 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1094 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 968 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 862 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1001 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1093 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1025 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1091 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1023 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1055 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 543 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1126 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1046 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1037 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1010 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 971 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1035 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 955 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 838 Views

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