But his thought processes are sound - Edit 1
Before modification by Sidious at 04/10/2012 08:23:54 AM
By your account Logain would also judged Berowin as stronger than Nynaeve because she may be able to Shield him alone. That would be quiet the misconception.
I agree that it would be a huge misconception, but if I was Logain I would still stick to that logic. If Logain judges Aes Sedai strength on gateways or shielding, he will be right in the vast majority of cases, assuming the woman tells him she is making her largest gateway.
I don't understand why you think that this is a new thing. Lews Therin says that no three women can shield him unless one is Forsaken strength. Conversely you can say that Logain could claim that no woman could hold him unless she has a shielding Talent. But you want to throw everything out of the window because of someone like Berowin.
And in the case of two men who who are close in strength such as Rand and Logain (who it would be difficult to establish which is actually stronger from casual observation) Logain's statement is stupid. He's seen with his own eyes that a MUCH weak man, Androl, can make gateways on par with Rand so he clearly knows there is more to a gateway's size than simply the strength of the Channeler.
Firstly, Androl cannot make a gateway that rivals Rand's. He can make a gateway that can pass a cart, and many Asha'man can do that. We saw from as early as ACoS that Rand only took Asha'man who fulfilled this exact criterion for gateway size. Androl is rare because he's probably as strong as Daigain and can make gateways as large as Egwene.
And once again, I think you are incorrect about Logain. Logain knows that a Talent is a rare thing. He therefore links gateway size to strength in the Power. Rand did it long before Logain did. The chance that someone could be like Androl is a small possibility that Logain is happy to discount. I think most people would be. By all accounts Androl and Berowin are unique.
Where is your evidence that the Talent is rare? By all accounts in the books the Talent is actually abundant!
What evidence do you have that it is abundant? Androl is the single example we have of a channeler, male or female, who can definitively weave gateways that greatly exceed his strength. I sincerely hope you don't mean that everyone who can Travel has a travelling Talent, because then everyone who can shield has a shielding Talent. Talent implies that it is wildly out of proportion to your predicted ability.
We've seen that nearly all Channelers can Travel
That is nonsense! Less than a third of Aes Sedai can Travel. It takes three sometimes four Kin to Travel. Considering we're expected to follow the strict bell curve for the sexes, the same can probably be said for men.
we've heard that at least some, Flinn, have difficulty with it... IIRC Flinn should be able to make a larger gateway than he can.
Does Flinn actually say that his gateways are smaller than they should be or that he struggles? Because its mostly likely it doesn't come naturally to him but he can still weave proportionately to his strength. Aviendha's gateways are not smaller, they merely require more saidar.
This example is probably meant to show is that Talent, or lack of it HAS an effect on Traveling and it goes both directions.
I would guess that someone who has zero ability with Spirit would probably not be able to Travel, though we have never met such a person. Most people struggle with some of the flows but they still get by.
There is a quote about "him not being like Androl" in there somewhere.
That's like saying that he's not like Graendal with Compulsion. It's obvious. No one is.
Certainly strength is a factor, but Talent is much more likely the driver on gateway size (I think it's something of a multiplier ... Androl gets a +500% while Rand gets a +25% type of thing). Androl is clearly an outlier in his ability, but that ability illustrates the point that the Talent is what is important.
I think that its a weave that is directly related to strength in the Power and that your gateway size increases as your strength does. However, and I've said this before, I think that the Talent is hugely powerful if it manifests and makes the person much greater than one would expect. I just don't believe it manifests often.
I think Androl has the Talent, and probably Rand, Demandred and Semirhage.
It may be possible that a different weave would enable weaker Channelers to Travel.
One could speculate on that I guess.
Regardless Androl's ability proves that you cannot judge a Channelers strength by the size of a gateway.
Yes you can. Logain did, and there is no theme there. It was RJ directly answering a fan question about gateway size vs strength. If Logain was such a fool then Rand would have refuted him.
It probably comes down to your own world philosophies, so it might not help to argue. I personally like generalizations but respect outliers, and then try to make a rule. You probably won't make a rule unless its 100% applicable.
If I see someone pick up a big block of concrete, I'm happy to say that its probably a strong man. If it's a weak man with skill or a woman, I'd probably be shocked - but not embarrassed. I'd be right 99 times out 100.
Certainly Channelers link to achieve certain feats, but Talent with a flow would be a part of a link and we know in the AoL (BWB commentary) that strength was not the biggest factor in being chosen for a circle, rather ability was. Thus a man like Androl may have been attached to circles for mass transit, or Berowin for shielding etc ... It isn't their strength that is needed, it's their Talent.
I don't dispute any of that.
Strength in a flow doesn't necessarily mean someone can channel more volume of that power than other flows, merely that they have a more refined touch with it or that it is "natural" to them. It's not like Egwene can channel 5x more Earth than she can Air
I know that. It is possible, however, that you can bulldoze your way through several feats with the Power using strength. If a weave has components of strength and skill you can probably compensate with one if you lack the other in most cases. Androl has immense skill. Logain has immense strength. They can make big gateways.
... Just that her Earth flows are much more pure than others.
This I don't agree with. There is no evidence of flow purity with the Power. It's more likely the flow doesn't obey the channeler and is difficult to weave, and also that the flow is weaker.
Kairen and Leane are two of the weakest AS in the Tower, yet they had more ability with making Cuendillar than anyone except Egwene. Strength was not the overcoming factor there as Nicola was likely stronger than either of these women at the time and Bode may well have been as well. Why weren't Romanda or Lelaine making it?
Because strength in Earth is the key. Egwene said as much. Its uncommon in women.
By your rationale as stronger Channelers they should be able to compensate for their lack of Talent or flow affinity by adding power ... Romanda and Lelaine are about 3x the strength of Leane and Kairen, certainly they should be able to channel more volume of Earth into a weave ... Or why not simple secure angreal for Leane and Kairen and send them to the harbor chain? Likely because more Power wasn't what the needed.
How many times do I have to repeat this? I told you that I think that increased Power can increase your ability. Maybe Egwene has 100% ability with cuendillar and Kairen 50%, and Romanda 5%. I'm saying that if Romanda got an angreal she could perhaps push her ability to 10%. You keep on making as if I think Romanda will suddenly be on Egwene's level.
We know that Samitsu can Heal as well as a full circle. Therefore take thirteen women and pile them up and suddenly you can Heal as well as the best Healer in the White Tower. I fully understand that precision and the nature of circles plays a role but also that compounding strength plays a part.
Moiraine may have 20% of Nynaeve's ability with Healing and therefore when she wants to do something grand she uses her angreal. It boosts her to 30% say. That doesn't mean she's Nynaeve as you keep on reinforcing. Verin uses an angreal to amplify her ability with Compulsion. I didn't say she was Graendal.