Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
Sidious Send a noteboard - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
Your example fits right in with an ongoing theme in WOT about misconception.
Well one can always bring about the theme of misconception if one doesn't like the evidence placed before them. The truth is there is no misconception - Logain is right. Rand is stronger.
Logain, of all the men out there, shouldn't use this comparison as he had already encountered Androl at this point and fought for him to be raised to Dedicated, or he soon would, based on his remarkable ability. We also know from Naeff (who Logain also knows) that a weaker Channeler with a strong affinity for a flow can match a stronger one, so Logain is even more off base with his assessment as Rand could just as easily be Gifted in Spirit and that would explain a greater effect with a single weave, or he could be both more Gifted and more Talented. No matter how you look at Logain's statement, it's stupid of him, despite being true as his rationale is not well developed since he took only one of the possible reasons Rands gateways were larger into account when there are quiet obviously many other variables that could account for it.
It's not stupid of Logain. You yourself say that he's been exposed to a lot of male channelers. He knows that their strength is well reflected in gateway size. You can't throw out a general trend just because one channeler has an unusual Talent with a weave.
And you are ignoring a bevy of quotes/scenes to the contrary:
1. Siuan specifically states her Healing talent is the same as before. No less despite significantly less Strength
2. Egwene and Elayne are both poor Healers, by your reckoning they should be able to overcome this with more power. We've seen on a number of occasions that this is not the case
3. Androl can make a Gateway as large as Rand
4. Asmodean talks of how poor Semirhage is with Weather
5. Moghedien complaint about her lack of a stronger Talent for Compullsion
6. Naeff matching Nynaeve in Tear with flows of Air
7. Flinn notes he has trouble with gateways, indicating he should be able to make one large based on his strength
1. Siuan specifically states her Healing talent is the same as before. No less despite significantly less Strength
2. Egwene and Elayne are both poor Healers, by your reckoning they should be able to overcome this with more power. We've seen on a number of occasions that this is not the case
3. Androl can make a Gateway as large as Rand
4. Asmodean talks of how poor Semirhage is with Weather
5. Moghedien complaint about her lack of a stronger Talent for Compullsion
6. Naeff matching Nynaeve in Tear with flows of Air
7. Flinn notes he has trouble with gateways, indicating he should be able to make one large based on his strength
I said originally that Talent plays the greatest part in everything, but that it is rare. It is still true that strong channelers can get by with everything. Semirhage can get by with the weather even if she struggles, whereas weak channelers cannot even do that if they have no Talent. Strength obviously has a part to play which is why Moiraine and other channelers sometimes link or use angreal to perform great feats of Healing.
There are dozens more throughout the text ... Point being, you must FIRST possess enough Talent to be effective with the skill, only then will strength allow you to compensate and perhaps create as powerful an effect as a Channeler with a stronger Talent but less raw strength. And in single element weaves flow affinity will also play a part in the end effect or a weave.
If you have zero Talent you can still get by. Rand can Heal even though he isn't very good. We know for a fact that making cuendillar is a Talent, though Egwene directly says that strength in Earth is the key. Therefore a strong channeler will be able to make cuendillar even without the Talent whereas a weak one won't. Give a weak Aes Sedai an angreal and suddenly she can Travel. There are lots of examples. I'm not claiming that strength gives you Talent. I'm saying that someone with no Talent can have a weak ability in everything if they are strong in the Power.
All Logain's quote tells us is that Rand is both stronger and has at least a similar ability with gateways to Logain. By your statement Logain should also think Androl is stronger than he is!
Logain is perfectly correct. You are using an exception to blind you to the rule. Out of all the Asha'man, Androl may be the only one with this gift. Logain has less than 1% chance of being wrong if he looks at a gateway size and assume's the man's strength. In Androl's case he would be wrong, and in Berowin's case we would be wrong about her ability to shield someone. You will still be right about the vast majority of channelers you measure up from a distance.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 03/10/2012 at 07:06:15 AM
Problems with gateways
28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
- 2887 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
- 652 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
- 1094 Views
It's been discussed before...
28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
- 1461 Views
I would agree with this
28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
- 1106 Views
Re: I would agree with this
28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
- 1249 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
- 1229 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
- 1128 Views
Regarding shadowspawn:
28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
- 1401 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
- 938 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it
28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
- 1147 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
- 1337 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
- 1360 Views
Androl throws a kink in this
02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
- 1123 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this
02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
- 1304 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
- 1060 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say
02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
- 1147 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
- 1180 Views
No I think they're more about strength
02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
- 1321 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
- 1129 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
- 1164 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
- 1177 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
- 1144 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn
03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
- 1223 Views
She did Heal him
04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
- 1098 Views
Re-read some stuff
04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
- 1170 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
- 1373 Views
But his thought processes are sound
04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
- 1063 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
- 1142 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
- 1081 Views
Ummm...
05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
- 1065 Views
Re: Ummm...
06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
- 1183 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind
06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
- 1015 Views
I think he did
08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
- 1155 Views
She wouldn't have to guess!
09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
- 1066 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
- 1049 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
- 1062 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
- 1000 Views
Exactly...
10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
- 930 Views
Re: Exactly...
10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
- 986 Views
Re: Exactly...
10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
- 1100 Views
AND...
10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
- 955 Views
Re: AND...
11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
- 1113 Views
Re: AND...
12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
- 1051 Views
Re: AND...
12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
- 1122 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
- 1032 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
- 1096 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
- 1295 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
- 1084 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
- 851 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
- 1119 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
- 1072 Views
to the point on the Circle
06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
- 1092 Views
Circles don't add the Talents...
07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
- 1057 Views
I've been thinking about this
07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
- 1013 Views
Circles give added precision, remember?
07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
- 1049 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
- 926 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
- 1092 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
- 992 Views
Highly doubtful...
08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
- 1034 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
- 1026 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
- 1035 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue
08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
- 1006 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
- 1066 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
- 1065 Views
the text is not inconsistent.
19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
- 1478 Views
I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
- 1149 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
- 1039 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
- 1104 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
- 935 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
- 1047 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle
07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
- 1025 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body
07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
- 1081 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
- 467 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
- 1043 Views
There is so much evidence against this
04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
- 1144 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
- 1126 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
- 1004 Views
He's referring to skimming
06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
- 1196 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation
06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
- 1041 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
- 1078 Views
07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
- 914 Views
Please explain Androl then
07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
- 1087 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
- 1037 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
- 1065 Views


i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
- 1065 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
- 1055 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
- 1236 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
- 1010 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
- 684 Views
I agree with this PoV
06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
- 1172 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
- 1003 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally
08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
- 1136 Views
I disagree
08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
- 1059 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there
09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
- 1029 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
- 1014 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
- 1198 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
- 1453 Views

This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
- 1039 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
- 1009 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
- 1157 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
- 1088 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
- 1004 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
- 1268 Views
Life skills and OP skills...
02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
- 948 Views
Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
- 1090 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
- 1171 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
- 1102 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
- 1192 Views
The point is the same regardless
03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
- 1127 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
- 1212 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
- 1126 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
- 1092 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
- 1067 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
- 1109 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
- 1116 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
- 1289 Views