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Re: Or the reverse could be true DomA Send a noteboard - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
Personally I think innate OP skills driving life choice seems more likely than the other way around.


That sounds very unlikely.

Just look at the Yellow Ajah. Most of them are dismissive of medication. Their work consisted of delving to know how much of the "heal-all" weave they should use. Even someone like Samitsu who could vary the strength of the weave according to ailment was truly exceptional. The Yellows probably study anatomy and pathology, but most are little interested in medicine. Why would they care, they had only a "heal all" cure as solution to everything?

By your reasoning, there should rather be an overwhelming number of women with a background as Healers among the Yellows, but the evidence is that it's precisely what the Ajah has lacked in the last millenia.

Then came a fully trained Wisdom, a woman truly exceptional because a) she trained for medical knowledge and skills very early in life, earlier than most wisdoms b) she got accepted at the Tower despite being too old. Nynaeve is trained to identify symptoms and causes, to deal with each with the proper specific cure. The "heal all" philosophy doesn't make sense to a doctor like Nynaeve, she approached the OP as she studied herbal medications and their interactions. She's developped an intuitive affinity of how the five powers interacted with one another and with the human body, but ultimately it's grounded in her experience of using medication and procedures. Her prior knowledge and experience have guided her in developping her OP skills. She also has one hell of a strength of will and doesn't give up easily. Unsurprisingly, Romanda has noted that there's a fair percentage of former Wisdoms in the new novices who have great potential for five power healing. The Yellows will have to rethink their training. They will need much greater medical knowledge from now on, and the women already too set in their ways and vision of healing might have problems developping the skills for the "new healing".

We also have evidence from the Wilders. Most of them develop a OP shaped by their a great desire for something. For Nynaeve it was more than that, it bordered on obsession.

Other examples: Semirhage's skills rely on extreme precision in her weaving, it's not surprising she's the one who can block a closing gateway, very likely a skill relying on precision. Graendal was obsessed with controlling people, her main skill is in Compulsion.

It's very likely Androl's gateways work so well because his skills for them is much greater, which is grounded in both his prior knowledge/skills and his limitation of being forced to use very small flows. He requires far less OP to achieve great results. The others compensate with "wasting" a lot of saidin on it, Androl relies on precision. It's a skill more naturally present among the saidar users. Women seems to use less saidar for a large gateway than a man uses saidin. Androl's weaving of gateways is just far more performant than anyone else, and the coincidences that he's trained in spatial skills, good with tasks requiring fine motor skills and precision and he's a great traveller knowing the land very well are just too big not to be a huge factor of explanation why he's so good with that weave. Don't forget, we know geographic knowledge counts: we've seen some channelers studying maps before opening gateways, to increase their precision about the arrival location. With areas they don't know well, they've sometimes been miles off target. Spatial skills must count too, especially for Gateways opened in visual range.



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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2887 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1460 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1106 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1249 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1401 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1244 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1125 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1166 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1146 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1263 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 938 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1147 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1172 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1254 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1337 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1145 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 587 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1360 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1123 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1304 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1060 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1147 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1180 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1321 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1128 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1163 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1176 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1144 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1222 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1098 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1108 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1170 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1001 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1145 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1373 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1063 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1142 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1081 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1121 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1065 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1183 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1015 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1219 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1147 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1155 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1065 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1037 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1025 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1066 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 929 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 986 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1100 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 955 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1113 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 932 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1051 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1122 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1095 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1124 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1295 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1084 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1005 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 851 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1119 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1044 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1072 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1091 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1057 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1061 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1013 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1049 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 926 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1092 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 992 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1034 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1026 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1035 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1006 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1066 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1065 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1478 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1039 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1050 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1025 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1081 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 467 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1003 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1043 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1144 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1126 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1004 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 770 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1196 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1041 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1034 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1151 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1078 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1087 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1037 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1065 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1114 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 939 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 914 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1010 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1074 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1059 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 683 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1025 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1172 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1003 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1136 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1059 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1029 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1198 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 957 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1453 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1009 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1157 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1115 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1004 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1268 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1068 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1183 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1062 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 948 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1089 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1171 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1102 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1192 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1126 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1145 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 576 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1212 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1126 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1118 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1095 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1067 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1133 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1054 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 931 Views

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