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Great rebuttal! Fionwe got burned! *NM* Dark Knight Send a noteboard - 29/09/2012 04:00:41 PM
The author has to give us some cues about character interaction, be it in the form of facial expression and physical gestures of the people involved, or their tone of voice. That is completely absent with Sanderson. Same with the internal thoughts of the PoV character.

Do you mean always, in all of his WoT writing, or just in this particular scene? Because "completely" is a pretty big word if I take you literally. I hadn't read the scene in question yet, but I will do so right now.

Let's see ... you said cues to character interaction were completely absent, including facial expressions, physical gestures, and tones of voice. So going through it quickly ...

- 'Gawyn cocked an eyebrow at his sister.' (facial expression indicating a questioning attitude)

- '“I’m waiting for a report,” Elayne said, gesturing for Egwene to join her in a pair of cushioned chairs beside the brazier.' (gesture indicating mutual respect)

- '“You need rest,” Gawyn said, folding his arms.' (gesture indicating sternness)

- 'Egwene rubbed her temples.' (gesture indicating tiredness and/or frustration)

- 'Elayne smiled fondly.' (facial expression indicating, uh, fondness)

- 'She rubbed the page with her thumb, as if lost in thought.' (gesture interpreted by Egwene to mean Elayne is lost in thought)

- '“He has a fair bit of gleeman in him,” Elayne said, again fondly.' (tone of voice indicating fondness)

- 'Birgitte already had the tent flaps open, hand on her sword.' (gesture indicating quick alertness)

Blah, blah, this scene goes on forever and I only care so much. But I think it's pretty clear that "completely" is an exaggeration on your part.

It definitely has a lot fewer descriptions and character observations than Jordan would have used, fewer by acres, and I tend to agree that Sanderson in this particular scene is being a little too sparse with the adjoining narration (which doesn't mean I agree that he's always too sparse with it). But I think you and DomA are still being far too critical based on your own reading preferences.

For example, narration is not the only way to "give us some cues about character interaction", as you put it. The dialogue itself does that as well. A few quick for instances from the first few paragraphs of the scene, along with my top-of-the-head reader interpretations that I get from the dialogue alone ...

- '“Are you going to stay in this time?” Egwene asked, dipping her pen, “or are you going to go right back out?”' (she's noticed that he's going in and out a lot and can't sit still, and she wants him to stay in but not enough to simply tell him so)

- '“I don’t like this night, Egwene.” He looked over his shoulder. “Something feels wrong about it.”' (clearly he's got his nerves up and is feeling some tension)

- '“The world holds its breath, Gawyn, waiting upon the events of the morrow. Did you send to Elayne, as I requested?”' (she thinks it's natural enough that the night feels wrong, and isn't particularly worried. She's still wondering if he can take orders)

- '“Yes. She won’t be awake. It’s too late for her.”' (he can take orders but he thinks he knows Elayne better than others do)

- '“We shall see.”' (she is confident that she does, but is together and in Amyrlin mode and isn't going to be a jerk about anything)

I got plenty out of those lines without the extra narration. Could it use a little more narration anyway? Yeah, I think it could. But it's not as though the stuff I interpreted from it is so crucial that the whole book falls apart if it's not spelled out for the readers.

The problem is, Sanderson gives us the skeleton of the scene, but none of the actual flesh. Its like disembodied voices are occupying the scene, so much so that there are several instances where the character starts a dialogue in one place, and has then moved by the end of it with the reader clueless as to when this happened. For example, read the scene where Egwene reveals to the Rebel Hall that there are BA among them, and then Moria gets up to run away. What follows is a pathetic mess. Egwene is in all sorts of positions and places as if by magic, and the same with the Sitters.

I think you are exaggerating a little again. And as for the example you cite, as a reader I don't particularly care exactly how each character moves through each scene; as long as I know the setting and who's involved, I can work out as many or as few of the details as I want in my internal image of the scene. That's not to say you aren't right about the scene being poorly constructed—I don't have it immediately on hand to read it myself, so I can't say. You could be right. But exact detailed scene narration is not critical to me as a reader as long as I have enough to let my head join in the game.

I'm not about to compare Sanderson to Shakespeare, but are you able to enjoy reading Shakespeare plays? I like reading them and don't feel they suffer for lack of precise narration of movement, facial expression, gesture, etc. Obviously that's an extreme example, almost pure dialogue, and Shakespeare wrote out some of those things in the dialogue characters speak to react to certain events, but just as obviously Sanderson's story isn't pure dialogue. There is some narration there, even if it's not as much as you'd like.

Rectifying these issues actually doesn't take much space, and as DomA said, actually ends up saving the need for more scenes. Its not a matter of preference. These are basic rules for good creative writing.

Sanderson definitely could have (and perhaps in this case should have) added some additional POV-centric narration. It's especially strange that he hasn't when you consider that he does include more in his own books. But this is also only one scene and I'd have to look at a lot more to say if it's the same problem through all his WoT books.

That said, it really, really is a matter of preference to some degree. I enjoyed The Gathering Storm more than I enjoyed any of the previous several Jordan books, and I think I demonstrated above that I'm capable of picking cues out of the dialogue and the bare narration in that scene, even if personally I'd like a little more narration than that.

Given that Sanderson is himself a creative writing instructor and bestselling author on his own non-WoT merits, it's safe to say he knows what constitutes good creative writing, and I think I have some idea as well. Clearly this particular scene isn't Sanderson at the top of his game, and I don't really want to make excuses for him. However, you said that it wouldn't take much space to add in Jordan-style narration. Maybe it wouldn't take much space to do it for one paragraph, or a couple, but for every paragraph in the book? The book would double in size even if you were able to eliminate a few chapters by showing them from other POVs.

Personally I think there's something to be said for economy and leaving room for reader interaction and interpretation. Likewise I think there's something to be said (perhaps a lot to be said) for reading clues from the dialogue without over-narrating everything.

These books definitely aren't being done the way Jordan would have done them, but I feel both you and DomA are laying the hyperbole on far too thickly when it comes to the superior merits of certain styles and what you feel is the complete lack of those merits in Sanderson's WoT books.
Formerly Mat Bloody Cauthon on Wotmania, blessed be its name
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If you have to call someone "my friend" three times in a couple of minutes, he isn't. - 28/09/2012 11:59:13 AM 5670 Views
John McCain has a similar proclivity. *NM* - 28/09/2012 12:26:29 PM 1109 Views
The only people I've ever heard say "my friend" are foreign street vendors - 28/09/2012 01:19:00 PM 1019 Views
Potential customer = best kind of friend *NM* - 28/09/2012 02:20:29 PM 595 Views
I agree in this particular instance. - 28/09/2012 03:38:15 PM 1328 Views
Maybe they have been Quakers all along? *NM* - 28/09/2012 03:39:24 PM 738 Views
Sanderson's handling of character interractions is pathetic.... - 28/09/2012 06:43:48 PM 1177 Views
Now see, here I don't fully agree, or at least think it's a matter of taste. - 28/09/2012 07:21:09 PM 1878 Views
Sorry, that's just not true... - 28/09/2012 11:33:59 PM 1059 Views
A few things. - 29/09/2012 02:40:47 AM 1287 Views
Great rebuttal! Fionwe got burned! *NM* - 29/09/2012 04:00:41 PM 799 Views
Re: A few things. - 30/09/2012 06:07:57 PM 1524 Views
I posted something very similar at DM. Reposting... - 28/09/2012 11:46:07 PM 1058 Views
Re: I posted something very similar at DM. Reposting... - 29/09/2012 01:51:20 AM 1275 Views
Yes! - 29/09/2012 02:26:39 AM 1192 Views
This is one of my biggest pet peeves as well - 29/09/2012 04:56:53 AM 1192 Views
There are people who say that? - 29/09/2012 05:16:58 AM 1069 Views
I complained about this regarding the Forsaken chapter - 28/09/2012 07:34:25 PM 1306 Views
I've long since accepted that Sanderson uses inaccurate terms like "powerful" - 29/09/2012 05:44:11 AM 1308 Views
To be fair, the last Moghedian PoV by RJ might have changed her a bit. - 29/09/2012 03:27:31 PM 1036 Views
Which is the question I brought up in another thread - 29/09/2012 05:29:01 PM 935 Views
The burning question to me, after reading all of the comments above, is this... - 29/09/2012 08:50:50 AM 1248 Views
Piggybacking on someone else's established characters and near-climax-point plot? - 29/09/2012 03:04:03 PM 1285 Views
Both of you disgust me - 29/09/2012 04:13:16 PM 1218 Views
This is not jealousy, it's being upset - 29/09/2012 07:52:51 PM 1093 Views
They could have hired a ghost writer. They chose not to. *NM* - 29/09/2012 09:34:27 PM 9795 Views
Your crappy taste in books means nothing - 30/09/2012 09:23:51 PM 1612 Views
When did I ever say Eli Manning wasn't a good QB? - 01/10/2012 03:40:21 PM 1001 Views
To be fair... - 29/09/2012 04:36:52 PM 1091 Views
True ... He may not be perfect, and he certainly made some strange choices - 29/09/2012 05:37:29 PM 892 Views
B-Sand is not a ghost writer - 29/09/2012 06:35:16 PM 2366 Views
Didn't say he should. - 29/09/2012 09:07:45 PM 1666 Views
I mostly agree with this. - 29/09/2012 09:36:38 PM 1278 Views
What is it you want? - 29/09/2012 09:39:36 PM 1255 Views
We want to bitch about an inferior product. Duh. - 29/09/2012 10:00:09 PM 1154 Views
Hmm that's true I guess. Sad though *NM* - 29/09/2012 10:07:25 PM 496 Views
It is what it is - 30/09/2012 12:52:20 AM 824 Views
Those are not remotely the same thing - 30/09/2012 09:14:49 PM 1092 Views
But they are the same in this instance - 30/09/2012 10:01:59 PM 1002 Views
It's fairly simple.... - 30/09/2012 09:55:52 PM 1246 Views
Thanks for that insightful response... - 30/09/2012 10:37:27 PM 975 Views
Forgotten Realms is big on clever spells and magic systems? - 01/10/2012 05:27:05 AM 937 Views
It's more... - 01/10/2012 01:05:18 PM 1692 Views
Did you read Way of Kings? - 03/10/2012 09:14:43 PM 1210 Views
No, nothing but the prologue - 04/10/2012 02:56:14 AM 931 Views
Re: The burning question to me, after reading all of the comments above, is this... - 11/10/2012 08:22:27 PM 843 Views

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