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Re: Well... Shannow Send a noteboard - 27/09/2012 08:17:07 AM

We are expressly told that Moghedien stood no chance against Lanfear.

I think I've completely forgotten, but where is this?
We are expressly told that Cyndane has enough of a strength advantage over Graendal that she immediately notices it. This when Aes Sedai often can't tell who is the stronger channeler if two channelers are very close in strength, other than both channeling as much as they can to measure the difference.

But that means nothing. Graendal would notice anyone even a little stronger than her. She has probably known only a handful of women able to exceed her, and even if none of them exceeded her by all that much, finding a newcomer with that kind of strength would shock her.
We are also told by Graendal that Cyndane is "MUCH" stronger than Moghedien: "Where did the Spider find someone so MUCH stronger than her?"

Yes, but by what metric? If the Foresaken are all clumped together, she could consider a woman at 98 much stronger than a woman at 88. Wouldn't change the fact that Moghedien isn't necessarily far from the others, given what we got from the prologue.
We are also told that Lanfear is sufficiently stronger than Cyndane that the other Forsaken can clearly sense this difference at first glance.

Again... so? Demandred and Rand were close, but differentiable. Same with Taim or Logain and Rand. Nothing says Cyndane isn't the same distance from Lanfear. Everything supports it in fact.
To me, the important thing to remember is that unless you can effortlessly shield another channeler, any encounter will be dangerous, even if you are significantly stronger. Because weak balefire will kill as easily as strong balefire. And someone who is very fast and skilled with Compulsion can probably strike you much more quickly than your more powerful lightning bolt can, even if you exceed their strength significantly.

Shielding isn't a 100% thing anyway. Shields can be misplaced, or not take hold on one go and take hold the next. We've seen both on screen in the books. Shielding isn't the be all and end all.
We have formed a good idea that you probably need to be between 50% and 70% stronger than someone to shield them relatively effortlessly if they are already holding the source. No one claims that Lanfear exceeds Moghedien by that margin.

The number is 50%. I seem to remember us agreeing to a 66% rule, which said that the person you shielded had to be at least weaker than 66% your strength for you to shield them effectively all the time. This is ignoring skill in shielding, of course.
But a situation of Moghedien at 65 and Lanfear at 95-99 is very possible, especially as we are told Moghedien had no hope of ever matching Lanfear in battle.

I really doubt there is this huge gap between Moghedien and Mesaana that no known character fills. RJ's 21 level list has no empty levels, as far as I know.
Moghedien is an extreme outlier, but given the 50% strength advantage rule for shielding other channelers if they're holding the source, a battle between Lanfear at 95 and Graendal at 85 would be very dangerous, especially if Graendal can strike faster with her speciality Compulsion weave than Lanfear can with her 15% more powerful general weaves.

Its more likely to be Lanfear at 100 (exactly why is she 99? RJ said the strongest woman equals the strongest man, and there's good evidence for Lanfear being the strongest woman) and Graendal at around 96, with Cyndane falling in between at around 98.


In the BWB it says that while Moghedien could never hope to match Lanfear's strength in the real world, she was her equal in the Dreamworld.

Seeing as Moghedien absolutely equals Nynaeve when Nynaeve was still blocked and at only her partial strength,

and that a full strength Nynaeve (unblocked and after being forced to her maximum by use of the Choedan Kal) equals an average female Forsaken like Semirhage,

and that Graendal is stronger than Nynaeve,

and that Cyndane is stronger than Graendal,

and that Lanfear is stronger than Cyndane, well, it really should never be in doubt, should it.

Moghedien has no chance against Lanfear.
This message last edited by Shannow on 27/09/2012 at 08:17:56 AM
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AMOL Prologue : Analysis of Forsaken section *major spoilers* Sidious - 19/09/2012 05:47:21 PM 3168 Views
You left out that Taim and Demandred have met before. Narg - 19/09/2012 06:19:01 PM 1427 Views
Part of me keeps screaming Logain, though that can't be right... Cannoli - 20/09/2012 12:14:00 PM 1384 Views
I thought of Logain as well... Narg - 20/09/2012 06:10:58 PM 1253 Views
We have our answer as to why Cyndane and Moiraine are reduced in power. Nargs - 20/09/2012 05:14:01 AM 1308 Views
It was spelled out before. Terez - 20/09/2012 05:25:05 AM 1189 Views
And some of us guessed that's what happened, we just didn't have evidence. *NM* Cannoli - 20/09/2012 12:04:18 PM 683 Views
Nor a lot of support for the idea... DomA - 22/09/2012 06:28:14 PM 1172 Views
Really? Seemed like the obvious series of events darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 02:32:35 PM 1118 Views
I know... DomA - 23/09/2012 05:30:42 PM 1164 Views
I'm not so sure Sidious - 24/09/2012 05:32:50 PM 1152 Views
Why question it? darius_sedai - 25/09/2012 01:40:39 AM 1039 Views
Re: Why question it? Sidious - 25/09/2012 06:12:32 AM 993 Views
No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks darius_sedai - 25/09/2012 04:10:04 PM 1245 Views
Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks Sidious - 25/09/2012 06:41:13 PM 1162 Views
Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks DomA - 25/09/2012 07:21:03 PM 1165 Views
Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks Sidious - 25/09/2012 07:53:47 PM 960 Views
Six Chosen... entyti - 20/09/2012 05:19:17 AM 1354 Views
It's fan fiction, but it's cannon fan fiction The Wandering Gambler - 20/09/2012 06:55:18 AM 1318 Views
Demandred - the wasted Forsaken Tom - 20/09/2012 08:14:15 PM 1215 Views
RJ's writing was bad. Sanderson's is far worse. *NM* Marshall - 21/09/2012 06:19:04 AM 687 Views
Re: Demandred - the wasted Forsaken DomA - 22/09/2012 07:23:19 PM 1115 Views
Talmanes DomA - 23/09/2012 12:42:27 AM 1520 Views
I think you once again overestimate my appreciation of the series. Tom - 25/09/2012 02:33:34 PM 1119 Views
Re: Talmanes echooff - 02/10/2012 03:27:05 PM 967 Views
I'm disappointed after waiting a week for a new post in the Forsaken thread, it's about Talmanes! Shannow - 02/10/2012 09:46:48 PM 1150 Views
Two interesting Forsaken issues you haven't raised DomA - 22/09/2012 06:21:34 PM 1352 Views
Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 02:53:32 AM 1074 Views
Re: Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand DomA - 23/09/2012 05:50:48 PM 1122 Views
I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 06:35:19 PM 1049 Views
Re: I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring DomA - 23/09/2012 07:46:59 PM 1291 Views
The first time we hear about Transmigration is in LOC darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 08:50:10 PM 1299 Views
Why was Ishamael reinstantiated as Nae'blis after his death? Marshall - 02/10/2012 10:17:03 PM 1136 Views
I have to wonder at Hessalam darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 01:20:13 PM 1319 Views
Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam DomA - 23/09/2012 06:52:10 PM 1375 Views
I agree that B-Sand seems to have inserted Graendal into the Slayer plot line in TOM darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 07:17:15 PM 1073 Views
Re: I agree that B-Sand seems to have inserted Graendal into the Slayer plot line in TOM DomA - 23/09/2012 08:19:02 PM 1074 Views
EDIT ... Demandred has only had about 9 months (according to wotchron) darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 09:13:44 PM 1200 Views
Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam Sidious - 24/09/2012 05:18:29 PM 1536 Views
I don't think she's old. Just really really really ugly! darius_sedai - 25/09/2012 03:22:56 AM 1019 Views
Re: I don't think she's old. Just really really really ugly! Sidious - 25/09/2012 06:13:51 AM 1076 Views
So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? Shara or Isle of Madmen back on the table? Shannow - 23/09/2012 08:01:03 PM 1137 Views
Re: So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? DomA - 23/09/2012 08:52:48 PM 1249 Views
Interesting... Shannow - 23/09/2012 09:06:18 PM 1066 Views
Re: Interesting... DomA - 23/09/2012 11:31:31 PM 1273 Views
I think we saw them during the attack on Maradon. The Portal Stone attack seems less likely darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 11:41:42 PM 1039 Views
Just one comment.. Shannow - 23/09/2012 11:53:09 PM 1748 Views
If I had to take a guess right now I'd say he has been setting up various Shadow armies thought the darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 09:30:34 PM 1066 Views
I think at the very least he has recreated the One-and-Eighty male channelers from the AOL... Shannow - 23/09/2012 09:34:56 PM 1162 Views
As I said he will almost certainly have Channelers darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 09:47:53 PM 1309 Views
All he needed to do was train 10 guys personally.. Shannow - 23/09/2012 09:51:46 PM 970 Views
It took Taim nearly a year to train a dozen men to a place where they could teach darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 10:00:40 PM 939 Views
The world is 25,000 miles by 25,000 miles in size... Shannow - 23/09/2012 10:15:22 PM 1046 Views
That is just far fetched ... I think I would laugh out loud if that is the case darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 10:43:37 PM 1042 Views
Direct quote from Demandred refutes this... Shannow - 23/09/2012 10:49:10 PM 1019 Views
Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 10:55:00 PM 1050 Views
Re: Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways Shannow - 23/09/2012 11:36:54 PM 1061 Views
Not really darius_sedai - 24/09/2012 12:31:48 AM 1099 Views
"My rule is secure." Could Demandred be ruling an entire Mirror World? Shannow - 23/09/2012 10:43:51 PM 1141 Views
I can certainly something like this happening darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 10:50:35 PM 940 Views
I'm not sure it's possible... DomA - 24/09/2012 03:02:26 AM 1078 Views
I think ... Sidious - 24/09/2012 05:36:38 PM 1055 Views
The changes in Moghedien darius_sedai - 25/09/2012 03:29:15 AM 940 Views
I believe she commented on Graendal's strength, comparing it to Nynaeve or something? Shannow - 25/09/2012 11:07:24 PM 1085 Views
Well.. fionwe1987 - 25/09/2012 11:15:21 PM 943 Views
Thanks for the quote, but reading that, it kind of implies the opposite, to me... Shannow - 25/09/2012 11:35:53 PM 1258 Views
Hmmm.... fionwe1987 - 26/09/2012 12:00:33 AM 998 Views
Hehe, that old argument again. Shannow - 26/09/2012 12:09:25 AM 888 Views
Yes. fionwe1987 - 26/09/2012 12:58:03 AM 882 Views
I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 04:11:16 AM 990 Views
Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength Sidious - 26/09/2012 08:53:02 AM 944 Views
Well... Shannow - 26/09/2012 09:09:38 AM 910 Views
Re: Well... Sidious - 26/09/2012 10:17:03 AM 1044 Views
Nice speculation. I like that type of calculation. Shannow - 26/09/2012 10:59:43 AM 977 Views
Moiraine lost more than 2/3 of her strength. Siuan lost about that and Moiraine seems darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 04:46:18 PM 972 Views
Re: Well... fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 03:12:06 AM 935 Views
Re: Well... Shannow - 27/09/2012 08:17:07 AM 894 Views
Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 03:00:04 AM 991 Views
Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength Sidious - 27/09/2012 07:23:11 AM 984 Views
As always you forget book 4 is more than half way through the timeline of the series darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 03:58:22 AM 990 Views
Actually...... DomA - 26/09/2012 02:30:00 AM 1051 Views
Agree with this.. Shannow - 26/09/2012 06:12:34 AM 866 Views
Not sure that's completely true.. fionwe1987 - 26/09/2012 06:42:51 AM 911 Views
Re: Not sure that's completely true.. DomA - 26/09/2012 03:02:41 PM 1069 Views
This is what I've been saying for years! darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 05:48:01 PM 792 Views
Re: Not sure that's completely true.. fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 03:17:00 AM 952 Views
Probably something like this Sidious - 26/09/2012 08:36:40 AM 967 Views
Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here... Shannow - 26/09/2012 08:56:32 AM 928 Views
Re: Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here... Sidious - 26/09/2012 10:01:08 AM 875 Views
Graendal almost has to be Stronger than Nynaeve darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 05:57:35 PM 1123 Views
One thing about that... fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 02:58:56 AM 1011 Views
Possible, but I find it unlikely darius_sedai - 27/09/2012 06:16:56 AM 910 Views
The reason I think that... fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 06:25:48 AM 951 Views
I always assumed Nynaeve at the top was a list he later revised as he decided to bring in darius_sedai - 27/09/2012 06:39:35 AM 1029 Views
Of course that's the correct answer, yes. Shannow - 27/09/2012 08:12:45 AM 1087 Views
I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 03:45:36 AM 991 Views
Re: I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice kHz1000 - 26/09/2012 05:30:36 PM 1061 Views
That is the question I was getting at darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 06:00:03 PM 1020 Views
Re: That is the question I was getting at kHz1000 - 26/09/2012 07:01:34 PM 1048 Views
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