We are expressly told that Moghedien stood no chance against Lanfear.
I think I've completely forgotten, but where is this?
We are expressly told that Cyndane has enough of a strength advantage over Graendal that she immediately notices it. This when Aes Sedai often can't tell who is the stronger channeler if two channelers are very close in strength, other than both channeling as much as they can to measure the difference.
But that means nothing. Graendal would notice anyone even a little stronger than her. She has probably known only a handful of women able to exceed her, and even if none of them exceeded her by all that much, finding a newcomer with that kind of strength would shock her.
We are also told by Graendal that Cyndane is "MUCH" stronger than Moghedien: "Where did the Spider find someone so MUCH stronger than her?"
Yes, but by what metric? If the Foresaken are all clumped together, she could consider a woman at 98 much stronger than a woman at 88. Wouldn't change the fact that Moghedien isn't necessarily far from the others, given what we got from the prologue.
We are also told that Lanfear is sufficiently stronger than Cyndane that the other Forsaken can clearly sense this difference at first glance.
Again... so? Demandred and Rand were close, but differentiable. Same with Taim or Logain and Rand. Nothing says Cyndane isn't the same distance from Lanfear. Everything supports it in fact.
To me, the important thing to remember is that unless you can effortlessly shield another channeler, any encounter will be dangerous, even if you are significantly stronger. Because weak balefire will kill as easily as strong balefire. And someone who is very fast and skilled with Compulsion can probably strike you much more quickly than your more powerful lightning bolt can, even if you exceed their strength significantly.
Shielding isn't a 100% thing anyway. Shields can be misplaced, or not take hold on one go and take hold the next. We've seen both on screen in the books. Shielding isn't the be all and end all.
We have formed a good idea that you probably need to be between 50% and 70% stronger than someone to shield them relatively effortlessly if they are already holding the source. No one claims that Lanfear exceeds Moghedien by that margin.
The number is 50%. I seem to remember us agreeing to a 66% rule, which said that the person you shielded had to be at least weaker than 66% your strength for you to shield them effectively all the time. This is ignoring skill in shielding, of course.
But a situation of Moghedien at 65 and Lanfear at 95-99 is very possible, especially as we are told Moghedien had no hope of ever matching Lanfear in battle.
I really doubt there is this huge gap between Moghedien and Mesaana that no known character fills. RJ's 21 level list has no empty levels, as far as I know.
Moghedien is an extreme outlier, but given the 50% strength advantage rule for shielding other channelers if they're holding the source, a battle between Lanfear at 95 and Graendal at 85 would be very dangerous, especially if Graendal can strike faster with her speciality Compulsion weave than Lanfear can with her 15% more powerful general weaves.
Its more likely to be Lanfear at 100 (exactly why is she 99? RJ said the strongest woman equals the strongest man, and there's good evidence for Lanfear being the strongest woman) and Graendal at around 96, with Cyndane falling in between at around 98.
In the BWB it says that while Moghedien could never hope to match Lanfear's strength in the real world, she was her equal in the Dreamworld.
Seeing as Moghedien absolutely equals Nynaeve when Nynaeve was still blocked and at only her partial strength,
and that a full strength Nynaeve (unblocked and after being forced to her maximum by use of the Choedan Kal) equals an average female Forsaken like Semirhage,
and that Graendal is stronger than Nynaeve,
and that Cyndane is stronger than Graendal,
and that Lanfear is stronger than Cyndane, well, it really should never be in doubt, should it.
Moghedien has no chance against Lanfear.
This message last edited by Shannow on 27/09/2012 at 08:17:56 AM
AMOL Prologue : Analysis of Forsaken section *major spoilers*
19/09/2012 05:47:21 PM
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You left out that Taim and Demandred have met before.
19/09/2012 06:19:01 PM
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Part of me keeps screaming Logain, though that can't be right...
20/09/2012 12:14:00 PM
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We have our answer as to why Cyndane and Moiraine are reduced in power.
20/09/2012 05:14:01 AM
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It was spelled out before.
20/09/2012 05:25:05 AM
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And some of us guessed that's what happened, we just didn't have evidence. *NM*
20/09/2012 12:04:18 PM
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Nor a lot of support for the idea...
22/09/2012 06:28:14 PM
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Really? Seemed like the obvious series of events
23/09/2012 02:32:35 PM
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I know...
23/09/2012 05:30:42 PM
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I'm not so sure
24/09/2012 05:32:50 PM
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Why question it?
25/09/2012 01:40:39 AM
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Re: Why question it?
25/09/2012 06:12:32 AM
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No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks
25/09/2012 04:10:04 PM
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Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks
25/09/2012 06:41:13 PM
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Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks
25/09/2012 07:21:03 PM
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Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks
25/09/2012 07:53:47 PM
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Demandred - the wasted Forsaken
20/09/2012 08:14:15 PM
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Talmanes
23/09/2012 12:42:27 AM
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I think you once again overestimate my appreciation of the series.
25/09/2012 02:33:34 PM
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Re: Talmanes
02/10/2012 03:27:05 PM
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I'm disappointed after waiting a week for a new post in the Forsaken thread, it's about Talmanes!
02/10/2012 09:46:48 PM
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Two interesting Forsaken issues you haven't raised
22/09/2012 06:21:34 PM
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Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand
23/09/2012 02:53:32 AM
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Re: Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand
23/09/2012 05:50:48 PM
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I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring
23/09/2012 06:35:19 PM
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Re: I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring
23/09/2012 07:46:59 PM
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I have to wonder at Hessalam
23/09/2012 01:20:13 PM
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Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam
23/09/2012 06:52:10 PM
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I agree that B-Sand seems to have inserted Graendal into the Slayer plot line in TOM
23/09/2012 07:17:15 PM
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Re: I agree that B-Sand seems to have inserted Graendal into the Slayer plot line in TOM
23/09/2012 08:19:02 PM
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EDIT ... Demandred has only had about 9 months (according to wotchron)
23/09/2012 09:13:44 PM
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Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam
24/09/2012 05:18:29 PM
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So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? Shara or Isle of Madmen back on the table?
23/09/2012 08:01:03 PM
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Re: So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game?
23/09/2012 08:52:48 PM
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Interesting...
23/09/2012 09:06:18 PM
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Re: Interesting...
23/09/2012 11:31:31 PM
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I think we saw them during the attack on Maradon. The Portal Stone attack seems less likely
23/09/2012 11:41:42 PM
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If I had to take a guess right now I'd say he has been setting up various Shadow armies thought the
23/09/2012 09:30:34 PM
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I think at the very least he has recreated the One-and-Eighty male channelers from the AOL...
23/09/2012 09:34:56 PM
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As I said he will almost certainly have Channelers
23/09/2012 09:47:53 PM
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All he needed to do was train 10 guys personally..
23/09/2012 09:51:46 PM
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It took Taim nearly a year to train a dozen men to a place where they could teach
23/09/2012 10:00:40 PM
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The world is 25,000 miles by 25,000 miles in size...
23/09/2012 10:15:22 PM
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That is just far fetched ... I think I would laugh out loud if that is the case
23/09/2012 10:43:37 PM
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Direct quote from Demandred refutes this...
23/09/2012 10:49:10 PM
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Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways
23/09/2012 10:55:00 PM
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"My rule is secure." Could Demandred be ruling an entire Mirror World?
23/09/2012 10:43:51 PM
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The changes in Moghedien
25/09/2012 03:29:15 AM
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I believe she commented on Graendal's strength, comparing it to Nynaeve or something?
25/09/2012 11:07:24 PM
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Well..
25/09/2012 11:15:21 PM
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Thanks for the quote, but reading that, it kind of implies the opposite, to me...
25/09/2012 11:35:53 PM
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Hmmm....
26/09/2012 12:00:33 AM
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Hehe, that old argument again.
26/09/2012 12:09:25 AM
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Yes.
26/09/2012 12:58:03 AM
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I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength
26/09/2012 04:11:16 AM
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Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength
26/09/2012 08:53:02 AM
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Well...
26/09/2012 09:09:38 AM
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Re: Well...
26/09/2012 10:17:03 AM
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Moiraine lost more than 2/3 of her strength. Siuan lost about that and Moiraine seems
26/09/2012 04:46:18 PM
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Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength
27/09/2012 03:00:04 AM
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Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength
27/09/2012 07:23:11 AM
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As always you forget book 4 is more than half way through the timeline of the series
26/09/2012 03:58:22 AM
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Actually......
26/09/2012 02:30:00 AM
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Not sure that's completely true..
26/09/2012 06:42:51 AM
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Probably something like this
26/09/2012 08:36:40 AM
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Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here...
26/09/2012 08:56:32 AM
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Re: Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here...
26/09/2012 10:01:08 AM
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Graendal almost has to be Stronger than Nynaeve
26/09/2012 05:57:35 PM
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One thing about that...
27/09/2012 02:58:56 AM
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Possible, but I find it unlikely
27/09/2012 06:16:56 AM
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The reason I think that...
27/09/2012 06:25:48 AM
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I always assumed Nynaeve at the top was a list he later revised as he decided to bring in
27/09/2012 06:39:35 AM
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I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice
26/09/2012 03:45:36 AM
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Re: I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice
26/09/2012 05:30:36 PM
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