Wheel of Time Messageboard: Hehe, that old argument again. by Shannow

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Hehe, that old argument again. Shannow Send a noteboard - 26/09/2012 12:09:25 AM

Thanks for providing Moghedien's actual comment on Hessalem's strength.

The way it reads, based on your quote, seems to imply to me that Graendal is saying that she is suprised that someone of Graendal's strength was not picked up by her agents, given that they picked up Nynaeve so quickly.

Meaning that if Nynaeve was discovered, then someone even stronger than Nynaeve should have been discovered even sooner.

Not how it reads. This is the quote:

Granted, Moghedien thought, sitting, she is powerful. How had Moghedien missed noticing one with this talent among the Aes Sedai? Her sources had picked out that wretched lightskirt Nynaeve almost immediately, yet they'd missed this hag?

The implication is that Moghedien really doesn't see much difference between those two.

Anyway, that's how it reads to me. But I don't have the exact quote and context in front of me, so I guess it can be interpreted to suit whichever viewpoint one holds on their comparative strengths, other than one which holds Nynaeve to be stronger than Graendal, which we know is not the case anyway.

Any more on Moghedien's reference to Taim's strength? Howcome she knows how strong he is? She can't sense male strength. So who would have told her he is fairly strong?

Here's the quote:

Taim... M'Hael... was said to be strong, perhaps as strong as the rest of them, but elevating one from this Age, with all of their ignorance.... It galled her to consider that this M'Hael would be regarded as her equal.

Also, she doesn't seem to think that he is as strong as the stronger male Forsaken. Merely that he might be as strong as "them", which includes herself, the weakest of the Forsaken by some margin.

What she says makes sense, because as we've argued before, the strength differential isn't that great between the Foresaken. Moghedien at 75-80 is not hapless before someone like Rand.

I beg to differ, as always.

Moghedien has no chance against Rand or Lanfear, at her level of 65.

Which was matched by Nynaeve in Book 4 already. Given that Nynaeve is still not at full strength in Book 9, that tells me all I need to know about Moghedien's strength level.

In fact, there's even a reference to Moghedien standing no chance against Lanfear in this new Forsaken chapter, I believe, talking about the odds now being evened with Moghedien's mindtrap or something, if I understand correctly.

EDIT

Also, the full quote on Hessalam's strength is perfectly consistent with Hessalam being even stronger than Nynaeve. Nynaeve is the strongest modern Aes Sedai previously identified by Moghedien's spies.

If someone stronger comes along, of course she is going to register surprise at the fact that Nynaeve was discovered, but not this new, even stronger person.

Exactly as she did in the quote above.

This message last edited by Shannow on 26/09/2012 at 12:18:30 AM

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AMOL Prologue : Analysis of Forsaken section *major spoilers* Sidious - 19/09/2012 05:47:21 PM 3083 Views

You left out that Taim and Demandred have met before. Narg - 19/09/2012 06:19:01 PM 1334 Views

Part of me keeps screaming Logain, though that can't be right... Cannoli - 20/09/2012 12:14:00 PM 1287 Views

I thought of Logain as well... Narg - 20/09/2012 06:10:58 PM 1161 Views

We have our answer as to why Cyndane and Moiraine are reduced in power. Nargs - 20/09/2012 05:14:01 AM 1245 Views

It was spelled out before. Terez - 20/09/2012 05:25:05 AM 1108 Views

And some of us guessed that's what happened, we just didn't have evidence. *NM* Cannoli - 20/09/2012 12:04:18 PM 649 Views

Nor a lot of support for the idea... DomA - 22/09/2012 06:28:14 PM 1085 Views

Really? Seemed like the obvious series of events darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 02:32:35 PM 1037 Views

I know... DomA - 23/09/2012 05:30:42 PM 1079 Views

I'm not so sure Sidious - 24/09/2012 05:32:50 PM 1058 Views

Why question it? darius_sedai - 25/09/2012 01:40:39 AM 960 Views

Re: Why question it? Sidious - 25/09/2012 06:12:32 AM 915 Views

No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks darius_sedai - 25/09/2012 04:10:04 PM 1155 Views

Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks Sidious - 25/09/2012 06:41:13 PM 1086 Views

Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks DomA - 25/09/2012 07:21:03 PM 1065 Views

Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks Sidious - 25/09/2012 07:53:47 PM 875 Views

Six Chosen... entyti - 20/09/2012 05:19:17 AM 1262 Views

It's fan fiction, but it's cannon fan fiction The Wandering Gambler - 20/09/2012 06:55:18 AM 1229 Views

Demandred - the wasted Forsaken Tom - 20/09/2012 08:14:15 PM 1136 Views

RJ's writing was bad. Sanderson's is far worse. *NM* Marshall - 21/09/2012 06:19:04 AM 651 Views

Re: Demandred - the wasted Forsaken DomA - 22/09/2012 07:23:19 PM 1024 Views

Talmanes DomA - 23/09/2012 12:42:27 AM 1436 Views

I think you once again overestimate my appreciation of the series. Tom - 25/09/2012 02:33:34 PM 1024 Views

Re: Talmanes echooff - 02/10/2012 03:27:05 PM 884 Views

I'm disappointed after waiting a week for a new post in the Forsaken thread, it's about Talmanes! Shannow - 02/10/2012 09:46:48 PM 1063 Views

Two interesting Forsaken issues you haven't raised DomA - 22/09/2012 06:21:34 PM 1294 Views

Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 02:53:32 AM 1024 Views

Re: Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand DomA - 23/09/2012 05:50:48 PM 1031 Views

I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 06:35:19 PM 969 Views

Re: I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring DomA - 23/09/2012 07:46:59 PM 1211 Views

The first time we hear about Transmigration is in LOC darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 08:50:10 PM 1214 Views

Why was Ishamael reinstantiated as Nae'blis after his death? Marshall - 02/10/2012 10:17:03 PM 1036 Views

I have to wonder at Hessalam darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 01:20:13 PM 1225 Views

Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam DomA - 23/09/2012 06:52:10 PM 1281 Views

I agree that B-Sand seems to have inserted Graendal into the Slayer plot line in TOM darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 07:17:15 PM 991 Views

Re: I agree that B-Sand seems to have inserted Graendal into the Slayer plot line in TOM DomA - 23/09/2012 08:19:02 PM 996 Views

EDIT ... Demandred has only had about 9 months (according to wotchron) darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 09:13:44 PM 1112 Views

Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam Sidious - 24/09/2012 05:18:29 PM 1460 Views

I don't think she's old. Just really really really ugly! darius_sedai - 25/09/2012 03:22:56 AM 945 Views

Re: I don't think she's old. Just really really really ugly! Sidious - 25/09/2012 06:13:51 AM 995 Views

So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? Shara or Isle of Madmen back on the table? Shannow - 23/09/2012 08:01:03 PM 1039 Views

Re: So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? DomA - 23/09/2012 08:52:48 PM 1166 Views

Interesting... Shannow - 23/09/2012 09:06:18 PM 990 Views

Re: Interesting... DomA - 23/09/2012 11:31:31 PM 1188 Views

I think we saw them during the attack on Maradon. The Portal Stone attack seems less likely darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 11:41:42 PM 945 Views

Just one comment.. Shannow - 23/09/2012 11:53:09 PM 1660 Views

If I had to take a guess right now I'd say he has been setting up various Shadow armies thought the darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 09:30:34 PM 984 Views

I think at the very least he has recreated the One-and-Eighty male channelers from the AOL... Shannow - 23/09/2012 09:34:56 PM 1081 Views

As I said he will almost certainly have Channelers darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 09:47:53 PM 1220 Views

All he needed to do was train 10 guys personally.. Shannow - 23/09/2012 09:51:46 PM 887 Views

It took Taim nearly a year to train a dozen men to a place where they could teach darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 10:00:40 PM 857 Views

The world is 25,000 miles by 25,000 miles in size... Shannow - 23/09/2012 10:15:22 PM 965 Views

That is just far fetched ... I think I would laugh out loud if that is the case darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 10:43:37 PM 955 Views

Direct quote from Demandred refutes this... Shannow - 23/09/2012 10:49:10 PM 930 Views

Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 10:55:00 PM 958 Views

Re: Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways Shannow - 23/09/2012 11:36:54 PM 963 Views

Not really darius_sedai - 24/09/2012 12:31:48 AM 1018 Views

"My rule is secure." Could Demandred be ruling an entire Mirror World? Shannow - 23/09/2012 10:43:51 PM 1050 Views

I can certainly something like this happening darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 10:50:35 PM 852 Views

I'm not sure it's possible... DomA - 24/09/2012 03:02:26 AM 991 Views

I think ... Sidious - 24/09/2012 05:36:38 PM 973 Views

The changes in Moghedien darius_sedai - 25/09/2012 03:29:15 AM 848 Views

I believe she commented on Graendal's strength, comparing it to Nynaeve or something? Shannow - 25/09/2012 11:07:24 PM 994 Views

Well.. fionwe1987 - 25/09/2012 11:15:21 PM 862 Views

Thanks for the quote, but reading that, it kind of implies the opposite, to me... Shannow - 25/09/2012 11:35:53 PM 1170 Views

Hmmm.... fionwe1987 - 26/09/2012 12:00:33 AM 915 Views

Hehe, that old argument again. Shannow - 26/09/2012 12:09:25 AM 811 Views

Yes.

fionwe1987 - 26/09/2012 12:58:03 AM 809 Views

I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 04:11:16 AM 899 Views

Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength Sidious - 26/09/2012 08:53:02 AM 861 Views

Well... Shannow - 26/09/2012 09:09:38 AM 826 Views

Re: Well... Sidious - 26/09/2012 10:17:03 AM 956 Views

Nice speculation. I like that type of calculation. Shannow - 26/09/2012 10:59:43 AM 886 Views

Moiraine lost more than 2/3 of her strength. Siuan lost about that and Moiraine seems darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 04:46:18 PM 875 Views

Re: Well... fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 03:12:06 AM 840 Views

Re: Well... Shannow - 27/09/2012 08:17:07 AM 832 Views

Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 03:00:04 AM 905 Views

Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength Sidious - 27/09/2012 07:23:11 AM 869 Views

As always you forget book 4 is more than half way through the timeline of the series darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 03:58:22 AM 894 Views

Actually...... DomA - 26/09/2012 02:30:00 AM 965 Views

Agree with this.. Shannow - 26/09/2012 06:12:34 AM 780 Views

Not sure that's completely true.. fionwe1987 - 26/09/2012 06:42:51 AM 841 Views

Re: Not sure that's completely true.. DomA - 26/09/2012 03:02:41 PM 981 Views

This is what I've been saying for years! darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 05:48:01 PM 714 Views

Re: Not sure that's completely true.. fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 03:17:00 AM 861 Views

Probably something like this Sidious - 26/09/2012 08:36:40 AM 863 Views

Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here... Shannow - 26/09/2012 08:56:32 AM 833 Views

Re: Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here... Sidious - 26/09/2012 10:01:08 AM 781 Views

Graendal almost has to be Stronger than Nynaeve darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 05:57:35 PM 1028 Views

One thing about that... fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 02:58:56 AM 926 Views

Possible, but I find it unlikely darius_sedai - 27/09/2012 06:16:56 AM 823 Views

The reason I think that... fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 06:25:48 AM 863 Views

I always assumed Nynaeve at the top was a list he later revised as he decided to bring in darius_sedai - 27/09/2012 06:39:35 AM 936 Views

Of course that's the correct answer, yes. Shannow - 27/09/2012 08:12:45 AM 1004 Views

I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 03:45:36 AM 901 Views

Re: I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice kHz1000 - 26/09/2012 05:30:36 PM 974 Views

That is the question I was getting at darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 06:00:03 PM 932 Views

Re: That is the question I was getting at kHz1000 - 26/09/2012 07:01:34 PM 955 Views

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<quote id="262130">
<quote id="262129"><quote id="262121">
Thanks for providing Moghedien's actual comment on Hessalem's strength.

The way it reads, based on your quote, seems to imply to me that Graendal is saying that she is suprised that someone of Graendal's strength was not picked up by her agents, given that they picked up Nynaeve so quickly.

Meaning that if Nynaeve was discovered, then someone even stronger than Nynaeve should have been discovered even sooner.</quote>
Not how it reads. This is the quote:

<quote>Granted, Moghedien thought, sitting, she is powerful. How had Moghedien missed noticing one with this talent among the Aes Sedai? Her sources had picked out that wretched lightskirt Nynaeve almost immediately, yet they'd missed this hag?</quote>

The implication is that Moghedien really doesn't see much difference between those two.

<quote>Anyway, that's how it reads to me. But I don't have the exact quote and context in front of me, so I guess it can be interpreted to suit whichever viewpoint one holds on their comparative strengths, other than one which holds Nynaeve to be stronger than Graendal, which we know is not the case anyway.

Any more on Moghedien's reference to Taim's strength? Howcome she knows how strong he is? She can't sense male strength. So who would have told her he is fairly strong?</quote> 
Here's the quote:
<quote>Taim... M'Hael... was said to be strong, perhaps as strong as the rest of them, but elevating one from this Age, with all of their ignorance.... It galled her to consider that this M'Hael would be regarded as her equal.</quote>
<quote>Also, she doesn't seem to think that he is as strong as the stronger male Forsaken. Merely that he might be as strong as "them", which includes herself, the weakest of the Forsaken by some margin.</quote>
What she says makes sense, because as we've argued before, the strength differential isn't <i>that</i> great between the Foresaken. Moghedien at 75-80 is not hapless before someone like Rand. </quote>

I beg to differ, as always.

Moghedien has no chance against Rand or Lanfear, at her level of 65.

Which was matched by Nynaeve in Book 4 already. Given that Nynaeve is still not at full strength in Book 9, that tells me all I need to know about Moghedien's strength level.

In fact, there's even a reference to Moghedien standing no chance against Lanfear in this new Forsaken chapter, I believe, talking about the odds now being evened with Moghedien's mindtrap or something, if I understand correctly.

EDIT

Also, the full quote on Hessalam's strength is perfectly consistent with Hessalam being even stronger than Nynaeve. Nynaeve is the strongest modern Aes Sedai previously identified by Moghedien's spies.

If someone stronger comes along, of course she is going to register surprise at the fact that Nynaeve was discovered, but not this new, even stronger person.

Exactly as she did in the quote above.
</quote>

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