Wheel of Time Messageboard: Hehe, that old argument again. by Shannow

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Hehe, that old argument again. Shannow Send a noteboard - 26/09/2012 12:09:25 AM

Thanks for providing Moghedien's actual comment on Hessalem's strength.

The way it reads, based on your quote, seems to imply to me that Graendal is saying that she is suprised that someone of Graendal's strength was not picked up by her agents, given that they picked up Nynaeve so quickly.

Meaning that if Nynaeve was discovered, then someone even stronger than Nynaeve should have been discovered even sooner.

Not how it reads. This is the quote:

Granted, Moghedien thought, sitting, she is powerful. How had Moghedien missed noticing one with this talent among the Aes Sedai? Her sources had picked out that wretched lightskirt Nynaeve almost immediately, yet they'd missed this hag?

The implication is that Moghedien really doesn't see much difference between those two.

Anyway, that's how it reads to me. But I don't have the exact quote and context in front of me, so I guess it can be interpreted to suit whichever viewpoint one holds on their comparative strengths, other than one which holds Nynaeve to be stronger than Graendal, which we know is not the case anyway.

Any more on Moghedien's reference to Taim's strength? Howcome she knows how strong he is? She can't sense male strength. So who would have told her he is fairly strong?

Here's the quote:

Taim... M'Hael... was said to be strong, perhaps as strong as the rest of them, but elevating one from this Age, with all of their ignorance.... It galled her to consider that this M'Hael would be regarded as her equal.

Also, she doesn't seem to think that he is as strong as the stronger male Forsaken. Merely that he might be as strong as "them", which includes herself, the weakest of the Forsaken by some margin.

What she says makes sense, because as we've argued before, the strength differential isn't that great between the Foresaken. Moghedien at 75-80 is not hapless before someone like Rand.

I beg to differ, as always.

Moghedien has no chance against Rand or Lanfear, at her level of 65.

Which was matched by Nynaeve in Book 4 already. Given that Nynaeve is still not at full strength in Book 9, that tells me all I need to know about Moghedien's strength level.

In fact, there's even a reference to Moghedien standing no chance against Lanfear in this new Forsaken chapter, I believe, talking about the odds now being evened with Moghedien's mindtrap or something, if I understand correctly.

EDIT

Also, the full quote on Hessalam's strength is perfectly consistent with Hessalam being even stronger than Nynaeve. Nynaeve is the strongest modern Aes Sedai previously identified by Moghedien's spies.

If someone stronger comes along, of course she is going to register surprise at the fact that Nynaeve was discovered, but not this new, even stronger person.

Exactly as she did in the quote above.

This message last edited by Shannow on 26/09/2012 at 12:18:30 AM

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AMOL Prologue : Analysis of Forsaken section *major spoilers* Sidious - 19/09/2012 05:47:21 PM 3092 Views

You left out that Taim and Demandred have met before. Narg - 19/09/2012 06:19:01 PM 1345 Views

Part of me keeps screaming Logain, though that can't be right... Cannoli - 20/09/2012 12:14:00 PM 1299 Views

I thought of Logain as well... Narg - 20/09/2012 06:10:58 PM 1173 Views

We have our answer as to why Cyndane and Moiraine are reduced in power. Nargs - 20/09/2012 05:14:01 AM 1261 Views

It was spelled out before. Terez - 20/09/2012 05:25:05 AM 1119 Views

And some of us guessed that's what happened, we just didn't have evidence. *NM* Cannoli - 20/09/2012 12:04:18 PM 656 Views

Nor a lot of support for the idea... DomA - 22/09/2012 06:28:14 PM 1097 Views

Really? Seemed like the obvious series of events darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 02:32:35 PM 1047 Views

I know... DomA - 23/09/2012 05:30:42 PM 1091 Views

I'm not so sure Sidious - 24/09/2012 05:32:50 PM 1073 Views

Why question it? darius_sedai - 25/09/2012 01:40:39 AM 969 Views

Re: Why question it? Sidious - 25/09/2012 06:12:32 AM 926 Views

No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks darius_sedai - 25/09/2012 04:10:04 PM 1166 Views

Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks Sidious - 25/09/2012 06:41:13 PM 1095 Views

Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks DomA - 25/09/2012 07:21:03 PM 1081 Views

Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks Sidious - 25/09/2012 07:53:47 PM 887 Views

Six Chosen... entyti - 20/09/2012 05:19:17 AM 1277 Views

It's fan fiction, but it's cannon fan fiction The Wandering Gambler - 20/09/2012 06:55:18 AM 1241 Views

Demandred - the wasted Forsaken Tom - 20/09/2012 08:14:15 PM 1144 Views

RJ's writing was bad. Sanderson's is far worse. *NM* Marshall - 21/09/2012 06:19:04 AM 655 Views

Re: Demandred - the wasted Forsaken DomA - 22/09/2012 07:23:19 PM 1039 Views

Talmanes DomA - 23/09/2012 12:42:27 AM 1449 Views

I think you once again overestimate my appreciation of the series. Tom - 25/09/2012 02:33:34 PM 1040 Views

Re: Talmanes echooff - 02/10/2012 03:27:05 PM 896 Views

I'm disappointed after waiting a week for a new post in the Forsaken thread, it's about Talmanes! Shannow - 02/10/2012 09:46:48 PM 1072 Views

Two interesting Forsaken issues you haven't raised DomA - 22/09/2012 06:21:34 PM 1310 Views

Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 02:53:32 AM 1033 Views

Re: Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand DomA - 23/09/2012 05:50:48 PM 1044 Views

I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 06:35:19 PM 980 Views

Re: I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring DomA - 23/09/2012 07:46:59 PM 1222 Views

The first time we hear about Transmigration is in LOC darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 08:50:10 PM 1223 Views

Why was Ishamael reinstantiated as Nae'blis after his death? Marshall - 02/10/2012 10:17:03 PM 1050 Views

I have to wonder at Hessalam darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 01:20:13 PM 1243 Views

Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam DomA - 23/09/2012 06:52:10 PM 1296 Views

I agree that B-Sand seems to have inserted Graendal into the Slayer plot line in TOM darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 07:17:15 PM 1003 Views

Re: I agree that B-Sand seems to have inserted Graendal into the Slayer plot line in TOM DomA - 23/09/2012 08:19:02 PM 1006 Views

EDIT ... Demandred has only had about 9 months (according to wotchron) darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 09:13:44 PM 1128 Views

Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam Sidious - 24/09/2012 05:18:29 PM 1471 Views

I don't think she's old. Just really really really ugly! darius_sedai - 25/09/2012 03:22:56 AM 959 Views

Re: I don't think she's old. Just really really really ugly! Sidious - 25/09/2012 06:13:51 AM 1004 Views

So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? Shara or Isle of Madmen back on the table? Shannow - 23/09/2012 08:01:03 PM 1052 Views

Re: So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? DomA - 23/09/2012 08:52:48 PM 1180 Views

Interesting... Shannow - 23/09/2012 09:06:18 PM 1004 Views

Re: Interesting... DomA - 23/09/2012 11:31:31 PM 1200 Views

I think we saw them during the attack on Maradon. The Portal Stone attack seems less likely darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 11:41:42 PM 958 Views

Just one comment.. Shannow - 23/09/2012 11:53:09 PM 1670 Views

If I had to take a guess right now I'd say he has been setting up various Shadow armies thought the darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 09:30:34 PM 993 Views

I think at the very least he has recreated the One-and-Eighty male channelers from the AOL... Shannow - 23/09/2012 09:34:56 PM 1090 Views

As I said he will almost certainly have Channelers darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 09:47:53 PM 1233 Views

All he needed to do was train 10 guys personally.. Shannow - 23/09/2012 09:51:46 PM 899 Views

It took Taim nearly a year to train a dozen men to a place where they could teach darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 10:00:40 PM 875 Views

The world is 25,000 miles by 25,000 miles in size... Shannow - 23/09/2012 10:15:22 PM 978 Views

That is just far fetched ... I think I would laugh out loud if that is the case darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 10:43:37 PM 970 Views

Direct quote from Demandred refutes this... Shannow - 23/09/2012 10:49:10 PM 945 Views

Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 10:55:00 PM 974 Views

Re: Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways Shannow - 23/09/2012 11:36:54 PM 978 Views

Not really darius_sedai - 24/09/2012 12:31:48 AM 1030 Views

"My rule is secure." Could Demandred be ruling an entire Mirror World? Shannow - 23/09/2012 10:43:51 PM 1066 Views

I can certainly something like this happening darius_sedai - 23/09/2012 10:50:35 PM 868 Views

I'm not sure it's possible... DomA - 24/09/2012 03:02:26 AM 1007 Views

I think ... Sidious - 24/09/2012 05:36:38 PM 987 Views

The changes in Moghedien darius_sedai - 25/09/2012 03:29:15 AM 868 Views

I believe she commented on Graendal's strength, comparing it to Nynaeve or something? Shannow - 25/09/2012 11:07:24 PM 1011 Views

Well.. fionwe1987 - 25/09/2012 11:15:21 PM 871 Views

Thanks for the quote, but reading that, it kind of implies the opposite, to me... Shannow - 25/09/2012 11:35:53 PM 1182 Views

Hmmm.... fionwe1987 - 26/09/2012 12:00:33 AM 934 Views

Hehe, that old argument again. Shannow - 26/09/2012 12:09:25 AM 826 Views

Yes.

fionwe1987 - 26/09/2012 12:58:03 AM 817 Views

I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 04:11:16 AM 915 Views

Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength Sidious - 26/09/2012 08:53:02 AM 874 Views

Well... Shannow - 26/09/2012 09:09:38 AM 836 Views

Re: Well... Sidious - 26/09/2012 10:17:03 AM 969 Views

Nice speculation. I like that type of calculation. Shannow - 26/09/2012 10:59:43 AM 899 Views

Moiraine lost more than 2/3 of her strength. Siuan lost about that and Moiraine seems darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 04:46:18 PM 894 Views

Re: Well... fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 03:12:06 AM 850 Views

Re: Well... Shannow - 27/09/2012 08:17:07 AM 844 Views

Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 03:00:04 AM 918 Views

Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength Sidious - 27/09/2012 07:23:11 AM 881 Views

As always you forget book 4 is more than half way through the timeline of the series darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 03:58:22 AM 907 Views

Actually...... DomA - 26/09/2012 02:30:00 AM 981 Views

Agree with this.. Shannow - 26/09/2012 06:12:34 AM 793 Views

Not sure that's completely true.. fionwe1987 - 26/09/2012 06:42:51 AM 857 Views

Re: Not sure that's completely true.. DomA - 26/09/2012 03:02:41 PM 991 Views

This is what I've been saying for years! darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 05:48:01 PM 727 Views

Re: Not sure that's completely true.. fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 03:17:00 AM 875 Views

Probably something like this Sidious - 26/09/2012 08:36:40 AM 879 Views

Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here... Shannow - 26/09/2012 08:56:32 AM 848 Views

Re: Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here... Sidious - 26/09/2012 10:01:08 AM 800 Views

Graendal almost has to be Stronger than Nynaeve darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 05:57:35 PM 1044 Views

One thing about that... fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 02:58:56 AM 936 Views

Possible, but I find it unlikely darius_sedai - 27/09/2012 06:16:56 AM 832 Views

The reason I think that... fionwe1987 - 27/09/2012 06:25:48 AM 876 Views

I always assumed Nynaeve at the top was a list he later revised as he decided to bring in darius_sedai - 27/09/2012 06:39:35 AM 952 Views

Of course that's the correct answer, yes. Shannow - 27/09/2012 08:12:45 AM 1019 Views

I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 03:45:36 AM 918 Views

Re: I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice kHz1000 - 26/09/2012 05:30:36 PM 987 Views

That is the question I was getting at darius_sedai - 26/09/2012 06:00:03 PM 943 Views

Re: That is the question I was getting at kHz1000 - 26/09/2012 07:01:34 PM 965 Views

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<quote id="262130">
<quote id="262129"><quote id="262121">
Thanks for providing Moghedien's actual comment on Hessalem's strength.

The way it reads, based on your quote, seems to imply to me that Graendal is saying that she is suprised that someone of Graendal's strength was not picked up by her agents, given that they picked up Nynaeve so quickly.

Meaning that if Nynaeve was discovered, then someone even stronger than Nynaeve should have been discovered even sooner.</quote>
Not how it reads. This is the quote:

<quote>Granted, Moghedien thought, sitting, she is powerful. How had Moghedien missed noticing one with this talent among the Aes Sedai? Her sources had picked out that wretched lightskirt Nynaeve almost immediately, yet they'd missed this hag?</quote>

The implication is that Moghedien really doesn't see much difference between those two.

<quote>Anyway, that's how it reads to me. But I don't have the exact quote and context in front of me, so I guess it can be interpreted to suit whichever viewpoint one holds on their comparative strengths, other than one which holds Nynaeve to be stronger than Graendal, which we know is not the case anyway.

Any more on Moghedien's reference to Taim's strength? Howcome she knows how strong he is? She can't sense male strength. So who would have told her he is fairly strong?</quote> 
Here's the quote:
<quote>Taim... M'Hael... was said to be strong, perhaps as strong as the rest of them, but elevating one from this Age, with all of their ignorance.... It galled her to consider that this M'Hael would be regarded as her equal.</quote>
<quote>Also, she doesn't seem to think that he is as strong as the stronger male Forsaken. Merely that he might be as strong as "them", which includes herself, the weakest of the Forsaken by some margin.</quote>
What she says makes sense, because as we've argued before, the strength differential isn't <i>that</i> great between the Foresaken. Moghedien at 75-80 is not hapless before someone like Rand. </quote>

I beg to differ, as always.

Moghedien has no chance against Rand or Lanfear, at her level of 65.

Which was matched by Nynaeve in Book 4 already. Given that Nynaeve is still not at full strength in Book 9, that tells me all I need to know about Moghedien's strength level.

In fact, there's even a reference to Moghedien standing no chance against Lanfear in this new Forsaken chapter, I believe, talking about the odds now being evened with Moghedien's mindtrap or something, if I understand correctly.

EDIT

Also, the full quote on Hessalam's strength is perfectly consistent with Hessalam being even stronger than Nynaeve. Nynaeve is the strongest modern Aes Sedai previously identified by Moghedien's spies.

If someone stronger comes along, of course she is going to register surprise at the fact that Nynaeve was discovered, but not this new, even stronger person.

Exactly as she did in the quote above.
</quote>

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