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The first time we hear about Transmigration is in LOC darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 23/09/2012 08:50:10 PM
I agree Ishamael gave him some basic training... enough to be False Dragon. I believe Ishamael's plan was to use Taim as decoy Dragon. Rand he would turn to the Shadow or failing that kill and his soul seized, Taim would be the Dragon Reborn for the world to see. As long as Ishamael had Rand, it was a child's game to fool people... Taim goes to the Stone, Rand discretely picks Callandor, Taim comes out of the Heart with it and voilà, he's officially TDR to lead the world astray... the real Dragon serving the Shadow more secretely, if not in death.

It can't really be Ishamael who's behind Taim's rescue. That happened in TSR after his death. That's the BA, likely involving Mesaana and Demandred. Don't forget after Ishamael's death, Demandred immediately attempted (dixit Graendal) to take over as if he were all of sudden the DO's heir... He wouldn't be the only Chosen who tried to secure Ishamael's pawns and discover his plans and orders, Sammael notably dabbled in that too.

Aocording to RJ, the Taimandred red herrign wasn't a red herring, so it's quite possible he meant by that that Taim had other reasons to remind LTT and us the readers of Demandred than any intention by RJ to make us believe he was Demandred... in other words, RJ overdid it and we made connections he didn't expect us to make so early.


I never fully bought RJ's comment about no red herring. Sort of like "it is intuitively obvious who killed Asmodeam" ... But that's a moot point to argue.

IThere's no evidence the transmigrated Chosen, none of them, was around so early. This all happened in LOC, when Demandred was the one passing the orders from the DO to the others and acting as if he were Nae'blis or about to be.


We have no idea when Moridin was actually brought back ... Could have been immediately following his death. We don't see him on screen for several books, and don't know for sure who he is for a while after he appears. I always got the impression we were supposed to think he had been lurking about for a time long before we saw the others brought back. As the DO's foremost follower it makes sense that he would be the first to return.

Scratch Moridin and leave only Shaidar Haran or the Dark One directly, and yes, it's quite possible it's how it happened. But that's pretty much what I'm saying from the beginning... I have no opinion whether Demandred did this on orders from above or if he got the idea himself....

The whole thing is fishy.... Taim was in hiding after his rescue with Bashere after him, and he miraculously heard of Rand's amnesty very early after Rand proclaimed it. Not only that, but it's as if he knew all along where he'd find Rand. Not bad for a guy on the run through villages and small communities in the Black Hills. That's what makes me firmly believe he was told to go to Rand... and given a Seal to buy his trust. Who's hunting for the Seals? Demandred.


That I agree with ... Taim was clearly sent to gain Rand's trust and given the Seal as part of the role. Who sent him is the mystery. Given that the BA knew of plans for Taim as far back as TSR (earlier really since a junior member knew at the beginning of the book), I favor Ishamael as the puppet master. He may well have set it up before his death in TDR as a precaution should Rand gain Callandor.

When he was dismissed from Rand's side, he was very angry. By their next meeting, he was scheming, talking of recruiting. I think it's Demandred who saw the huge opportunity, not Taim. I don't believe Taim got all the men recruited, by the way. I think several recruits we'll find out were sent to Demandred, who used the system to build another army of channelers elsewhere (it may not be on the main continent). I think Demandred loved the notion that he would have a foot in Rand's army through Taim, that Taim would be in a position to destroy or steal Rand's army, but I don't believe Demandred sees the Asha'man as his army, but as a small infliltrated group. Demandred would be a bit in the position of Rand: even if he's involved in the BT creation, those men are Taim's men, and Taim has loyalty to Ishamael too and alas, Ishamael is unexpectedly back. Thus Demandred cut the ties between his projects and the BT. I believe Demandred was already building his army when the BT was created, that he began shortly after his release with never any intention to seize a territory or play the others' game; the BT became a side-project arising out of pure opportunity when the man he sent or was ordered to send to Rand was put in charge of training the channelers Rand was gathering.


The new Prologue seems to contradict this. Taim is being rewarded for seizing the opportunity and creating the BT. Why would this be seen as an accomplishment if Demandred set it up and also outstripped it in his own right? Maybe it's a move calculated to keep Demandred in his place, but as Nae'Bliss with access to the True Power Moridin doesn't need to play these games ... And in fact seems to get easily bored with them.

Too many of our number threw themselves into contests with al’Thor when he was presumed to be weak. M’Hael instead earned Lews Therin’s trust, then took charge of the training of his weapons. He has been raising a new generation of Dreadlords to the Shadow’s cause. What do the three of you have to show for your work since being released?”

There is an emphasis on HE from the text, alluding that Taim alone did this. Demandred immediately starts boasting of his nebulous achievements as though to prove what he has done is even more impressive. If it was just finding more Channelers I doubt this would have played out this way.

And as I said, I believe Demandred has always known Taim was a pawn of Ishamael (like Sammael knew about Carridin and Shiaine), and the second Moridin showed up the game changed and Demandred knew Taim was now unreliable, if that didn't started earlier when Osan'gar showed up (Taim seems to have known all along Osan'gar was a Chosen). Demandred distanced himself. Sure, the Asha'man are powerful, but I'm sure Taim's faction will be perceived differently (ie: as smaller) once we get to know what mixed gender forces Demandred has assembled, and trained himself... people who've not followed a training and indoctrination inspired by Demandred's methods mixed with Taim's, but people totally dedicated to Demandred and answering only to him, with no concessions to the fact the Asha'man had to appear to be Rand's army and couldn't go "all Shadow". His own officers will be trained in tactics to use Shadowspawn and so on. For Demandred I think the BT was more like a pet project, dear mostly because that let him crush or steal Rand's core army before TG even began. I also believe Demandred expected Taim would serve under him no matter when TG came, the return of Moridin simply meant he would not merge the BT with his other recruiting projects down the line, because its loyalty was too divided. And now that Taim is raised Chosen - and I have few doubts this was done on Moridin's recommendation to the DO - that will even less happen. I think the DO wanted new Chosen, and it will turn out all those picked will be Moridin's protégés and pawns...

I don't expect there will be more than a few (maybe just two. I really expect Alviarin has been raised Chosen too), though that'd be cool if there would be just enough of them to get a bit of a Chosen's war going.


We shall have to RAFO I suppose. I have a hard time believing Demandred would have used someone else's pawn in his scheme without finding a way to dispose of Taim if he betrayed Demandred. Why abandon such a potentially powerful pet project to one of your chief rivals without any kind of fight? I will be disappointed if Demandred appears with an army of Channelers from out of nowhere. That would dilute the field so much as to be boring in the extreme. I think it would be much more interesting if he came to the party with armies equipped with things like shock lances gathered from mirror worlds or some other AoL twist. He's a field general, he should be thinking of surprising things that will give him an edge the Light cannot match or prepare for!

I would be surprised in Alviarin was named Chosen ... She's far to weak and uneducated to be seen as an equal, Moghedien commented on it with Taim even, if he didn't have an abundance of Strength I doubt he would have been elevated.

M’Hael…was said to be strong, perhaps as strong as the rest of them, but elevating one from this Age, with all of their ignorance…. It galled her to consider that this M’Hael would be regarded as her equal.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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AMOL Prologue : Analysis of Forsaken section *major spoilers* - 19/09/2012 05:47:21 PM 3092 Views
You left out that Taim and Demandred have met before. - 19/09/2012 06:19:01 PM 1345 Views
Part of me keeps screaming Logain, though that can't be right... - 20/09/2012 12:14:00 PM 1299 Views
I thought of Logain as well... - 20/09/2012 06:10:58 PM 1173 Views
We have our answer as to why Cyndane and Moiraine are reduced in power. - 20/09/2012 05:14:01 AM 1260 Views
It was spelled out before. - 20/09/2012 05:25:05 AM 1119 Views
And some of us guessed that's what happened, we just didn't have evidence. *NM* - 20/09/2012 12:04:18 PM 655 Views
Nor a lot of support for the idea... - 22/09/2012 06:28:14 PM 1097 Views
Really? Seemed like the obvious series of events - 23/09/2012 02:32:35 PM 1046 Views
I know... - 23/09/2012 05:30:42 PM 1090 Views
I'm not so sure - 24/09/2012 05:32:50 PM 1073 Views
Why question it? - 25/09/2012 01:40:39 AM 968 Views
Re: Why question it? - 25/09/2012 06:12:32 AM 925 Views
Six Chosen... - 20/09/2012 05:19:17 AM 1276 Views
It's fan fiction, but it's cannon fan fiction - 20/09/2012 06:55:18 AM 1241 Views
Demandred - the wasted Forsaken - 20/09/2012 08:14:15 PM 1143 Views
RJ's writing was bad. Sanderson's is far worse. *NM* - 21/09/2012 06:19:04 AM 654 Views
Re: Demandred - the wasted Forsaken - 22/09/2012 07:23:19 PM 1038 Views
Talmanes - 23/09/2012 12:42:27 AM 1448 Views
Re: Talmanes - 02/10/2012 03:27:05 PM 896 Views
Two interesting Forsaken issues you haven't raised - 22/09/2012 06:21:34 PM 1309 Views
Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand - 23/09/2012 02:53:32 AM 1033 Views
Re: Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand - 23/09/2012 05:50:48 PM 1043 Views
I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring - 23/09/2012 06:35:19 PM 979 Views
Re: I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring - 23/09/2012 07:46:59 PM 1221 Views
The first time we hear about Transmigration is in LOC - 23/09/2012 08:50:10 PM 1223 Views
Why was Ishamael reinstantiated as Nae'blis after his death? - 02/10/2012 10:17:03 PM 1050 Views
I have to wonder at Hessalam - 23/09/2012 01:20:13 PM 1243 Views
Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam - 23/09/2012 06:52:10 PM 1295 Views
Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam - 24/09/2012 05:18:29 PM 1471 Views
I don't think she's old. Just really really really ugly! - 25/09/2012 03:22:56 AM 958 Views
Re: I don't think she's old. Just really really really ugly! - 25/09/2012 06:13:51 AM 1003 Views
So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? Shara or Isle of Madmen back on the table? - 23/09/2012 08:01:03 PM 1051 Views
Re: So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? - 23/09/2012 08:52:48 PM 1179 Views
Interesting... - 23/09/2012 09:06:18 PM 1003 Views
Re: Interesting... - 23/09/2012 11:31:31 PM 1199 Views
Just one comment.. - 23/09/2012 11:53:09 PM 1670 Views
If I had to take a guess right now I'd say he has been setting up various Shadow armies thought the - 23/09/2012 09:30:34 PM 992 Views
I think at the very least he has recreated the One-and-Eighty male channelers from the AOL... - 23/09/2012 09:34:56 PM 1090 Views
As I said he will almost certainly have Channelers - 23/09/2012 09:47:53 PM 1233 Views
All he needed to do was train 10 guys personally.. - 23/09/2012 09:51:46 PM 899 Views
It took Taim nearly a year to train a dozen men to a place where they could teach - 23/09/2012 10:00:40 PM 874 Views
The world is 25,000 miles by 25,000 miles in size... - 23/09/2012 10:15:22 PM 978 Views
That is just far fetched ... I think I would laugh out loud if that is the case - 23/09/2012 10:43:37 PM 969 Views
Direct quote from Demandred refutes this... - 23/09/2012 10:49:10 PM 944 Views
Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways - 23/09/2012 10:55:00 PM 973 Views
Re: Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways - 23/09/2012 11:36:54 PM 977 Views
Not really - 24/09/2012 12:31:48 AM 1030 Views
"My rule is secure." Could Demandred be ruling an entire Mirror World? - 23/09/2012 10:43:51 PM 1065 Views
I can certainly something like this happening - 23/09/2012 10:50:35 PM 868 Views
I'm not sure it's possible... - 24/09/2012 03:02:26 AM 1007 Views
I think ... - 24/09/2012 05:36:38 PM 986 Views
The changes in Moghedien - 25/09/2012 03:29:15 AM 867 Views
I believe she commented on Graendal's strength, comparing it to Nynaeve or something? - 25/09/2012 11:07:24 PM 1011 Views
Well.. - 25/09/2012 11:15:21 PM 871 Views
Thanks for the quote, but reading that, it kind of implies the opposite, to me... - 25/09/2012 11:35:53 PM 1182 Views
Hmmm.... - 26/09/2012 12:00:33 AM 934 Views
Hehe, that old argument again. - 26/09/2012 12:09:25 AM 825 Views
Yes. - 26/09/2012 12:58:03 AM 817 Views
I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength - 26/09/2012 04:11:16 AM 915 Views
Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength - 26/09/2012 08:53:02 AM 874 Views
Well... - 26/09/2012 09:09:38 AM 835 Views
Re: Well... - 26/09/2012 10:17:03 AM 968 Views
Nice speculation. I like that type of calculation. - 26/09/2012 10:59:43 AM 899 Views
Re: Well... - 27/09/2012 03:12:06 AM 850 Views
Re: Well... - 27/09/2012 08:17:07 AM 843 Views
Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength - 27/09/2012 03:00:04 AM 917 Views
Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength - 27/09/2012 07:23:11 AM 881 Views
Actually...... - 26/09/2012 02:30:00 AM 980 Views
Agree with this.. - 26/09/2012 06:12:34 AM 793 Views
Not sure that's completely true.. - 26/09/2012 06:42:51 AM 857 Views
Re: Not sure that's completely true.. - 26/09/2012 03:02:41 PM 990 Views
This is what I've been saying for years! - 26/09/2012 05:48:01 PM 726 Views
Re: Not sure that's completely true.. - 27/09/2012 03:17:00 AM 874 Views
Probably something like this - 26/09/2012 08:36:40 AM 878 Views
Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here... - 26/09/2012 08:56:32 AM 847 Views
Re: Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here... - 26/09/2012 10:01:08 AM 799 Views
Graendal almost has to be Stronger than Nynaeve - 26/09/2012 05:57:35 PM 1044 Views
One thing about that... - 27/09/2012 02:58:56 AM 936 Views
Possible, but I find it unlikely - 27/09/2012 06:16:56 AM 831 Views
The reason I think that... - 27/09/2012 06:25:48 AM 876 Views
I always assumed Nynaeve at the top was a list he later revised as he decided to bring in - 27/09/2012 06:39:35 AM 952 Views
Of course that's the correct answer, yes. - 27/09/2012 08:12:45 AM 1019 Views
I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice - 26/09/2012 03:45:36 AM 918 Views
Re: I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice - 26/09/2012 05:30:36 PM 987 Views
That is the question I was getting at - 26/09/2012 06:00:03 PM 942 Views
Re: That is the question I was getting at - 26/09/2012 07:01:34 PM 964 Views

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