Re: I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring
DomA Send a noteboard - 23/09/2012 07:46:59 PM
It makes me think Demandred and Taim were never directly involved prior to the BT. Clearly Taim had learned many things from Ishamael prior to the events of the series, he already knew how to test men and was obviously a somewhat accomplished Channeler when he arrived in Caemlyn.
I agree Ishamael gave him some basic training... enough to be False Dragon. I believe Ishamael's plan was to use Taim as decoy Dragon. Rand he would turn to the Shadow or failing that kill and his soul seized, Taim would be the Dragon Reborn for the world to see. As long as Ishamael had Rand, it was a child's game to fool people... Taim goes to the Stone, Rand discretely picks Callandor, Taim comes out of the Heart with it and voilà, he's officially TDR to lead the world astray... the real Dragon serving the Shadow more secretely, if not in death.
It can't really be Ishamael who's behind Taim's rescue. That happened in TSR after his death. That's the BA, likely involving Mesaana and Demandred. Don't forget after Ishamael's death, Demandred immediately attempted (dixit Graendal) to take over as if he were all of sudden the DO's heir... He wouldn't be the only Chosen who tried to secure Ishamael's pawns and discover his plans and orders, Sammael notably dabbled in that too.
Aocording to RJ, the Taimandred red herrign wasn't a red herring, so it's quite possible he meant by that that Taim had other reasons to remind LTT and us the readers of Demandred than any intention by RJ to make us believe he was Demandred... in other words, RJ overdid it and we made connections he didn't expect us to make so early.
IMHO presented the idea to the newly reborn Moridin.
There's no evidence the transmigrated Chosen, none of them, was around so early. This all happened in LOC, when Demandred was the one passing the orders from the DO to the others and acting as if he were Nae'blis or about to be.
It is plausible that Moridin as Nae'Blis or possibly Shadar Haran ordered Demandred to teach Taim about the infrastructure for a military organization etc ...
Scratch Moridin and leave only Shaidar Haran or the Dark One directly, and yes, it's quite possible it's how it happened. But that's pretty much what I'm saying from the beginning... I have no opinion whether Demandred did this on orders from above or if he got the idea himself...
The whole thing is fishy.... Taim was in hiding after his rescue with Bashere after him, and he miraculously heard of Rand's amnesty very early after Rand proclaimed it. Not only that, but it's as if he knew all along where he'd find Rand. Not bad for a guy on the run through villages and small communities in the Black Hills. That's what makes me firmly believe he was told to go to Rand... and given a Seal to buy his trust. Who's hunting for the Seals? Demandred.
When he was dismissed from Rand's side, he was very angry. By their next meeting, he was scheming, talking of recruiting. I think it's Demandred who saw the huge opportunity, not Taim. I don't believe Taim got all the men recruited, by the way. I think several recruits we'll find out were sent to Demandred, who used the system to build another army of channelers elsewhere (it may not be on the main continent). I think Demandred loved the notion that he would have a foot in Rand's army through Taim, that Taim would be in a position to destroy or steal Rand's army, but I don't believe Demandred sees the Asha'man as his army, but as a small infliltrated group. Demandred would be a bit in the position of Rand: even if he's involved in the BT creation, those men are Taim's men, and Taim has loyalty to Ishamael too and alas, Ishamael is unexpectedly back. Thus Demandred cut the ties between his projects and the BT. I believe Demandred was already building his army when the BT was created, that he began shortly after his release with never any intention to seize a territory or play the others' game; the BT became a side-project arising out of pure opportunity when the man he sent or was ordered to send to Rand was put in charge of training the channelers Rand was gathering.
And as I said, I believe Demandred has always known Taim was a pawn of Ishamael (like Sammael knew about Carridin and Shiaine), and the second Moridin showed up the game changed and Demandred knew Taim was now unreliable, if that didn't started earlier when Osan'gar showed up (Taim seems to have known all along Osan'gar was a Chosen). Demandred distanced himself. Sure, the Asha'man are powerful, but I'm sure Taim's faction will be perceived differently (ie: as smaller) once we get to know what mixed gender forces Demandred has assembled, and trained himself... people who've not followed a training and indoctrination inspired by Demandred's methods mixed with Taim's, but people totally dedicated to Demandred and answering only to him, with no concessions to the fact the Asha'man had to appear to be Rand's army and couldn't go "all Shadow". His own officers will be trained in tactics to use Shadowspawn and so on. For Demandred I think the BT was more like a pet project, dear mostly because that let him crush or steal Rand's core army before TG even began. I also believe Demandred expected Taim would serve under him no matter when TG came, the return of Moridin simply meant he would not merge the BT with his other recruiting projects down the line, because its loyalty was too divided. And now that Taim is raised Chosen - and I have few doubts this was done on Moridin's recommendation to the DO - that will even less happen. I think the DO wanted new Chosen, and it will turn out all those picked will be Moridin's protégés and pawns...
I don't expect there will be more than a few (maybe just two. I really expect Alviarin has been raised Chosen too), though that'd be cool if there would be just enough of them to get a bit of a Chosen's war going.
This message last edited by DomA on 23/09/2012 at 07:57:06 PM
AMOL Prologue : Analysis of Forsaken section *major spoilers*
19/09/2012 05:47:21 PM
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You left out that Taim and Demandred have met before.
19/09/2012 06:19:01 PM
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Part of me keeps screaming Logain, though that can't be right...
20/09/2012 12:14:00 PM
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We have our answer as to why Cyndane and Moiraine are reduced in power.
20/09/2012 05:14:01 AM
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It was spelled out before.
20/09/2012 05:25:05 AM
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And some of us guessed that's what happened, we just didn't have evidence. *NM*
20/09/2012 12:04:18 PM
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Nor a lot of support for the idea...
22/09/2012 06:28:14 PM
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Really? Seemed like the obvious series of events
23/09/2012 02:32:35 PM
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I know...
23/09/2012 05:30:42 PM
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I'm not so sure
24/09/2012 05:32:50 PM
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Why question it?
25/09/2012 01:40:39 AM
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Re: Why question it?
25/09/2012 06:12:32 AM
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No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks
25/09/2012 04:10:04 PM
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Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks
25/09/2012 06:41:13 PM
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Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks
25/09/2012 07:21:03 PM
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Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks
25/09/2012 07:53:47 PM
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Demandred - the wasted Forsaken
20/09/2012 08:14:15 PM
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Talmanes
23/09/2012 12:42:27 AM
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I think you once again overestimate my appreciation of the series.
25/09/2012 02:33:34 PM
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Re: Talmanes
02/10/2012 03:27:05 PM
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I'm disappointed after waiting a week for a new post in the Forsaken thread, it's about Talmanes!
02/10/2012 09:46:48 PM
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Two interesting Forsaken issues you haven't raised
22/09/2012 06:21:34 PM
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Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand
23/09/2012 02:53:32 AM
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Re: Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand
23/09/2012 05:50:48 PM
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I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring
23/09/2012 06:35:19 PM
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Re: I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring
23/09/2012 07:46:59 PM
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I have to wonder at Hessalam
23/09/2012 01:20:13 PM
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Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam
23/09/2012 06:52:10 PM
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I agree that B-Sand seems to have inserted Graendal into the Slayer plot line in TOM
23/09/2012 07:17:15 PM
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Re: I agree that B-Sand seems to have inserted Graendal into the Slayer plot line in TOM
23/09/2012 08:19:02 PM
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EDIT ... Demandred has only had about 9 months (according to wotchron)
23/09/2012 09:13:44 PM
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Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam
24/09/2012 05:18:29 PM
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So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? Shara or Isle of Madmen back on the table?
23/09/2012 08:01:03 PM
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Re: So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game?
23/09/2012 08:52:48 PM
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Interesting...
23/09/2012 09:06:18 PM
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Re: Interesting...
23/09/2012 11:31:31 PM
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I think we saw them during the attack on Maradon. The Portal Stone attack seems less likely
23/09/2012 11:41:42 PM
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If I had to take a guess right now I'd say he has been setting up various Shadow armies thought the
23/09/2012 09:30:34 PM
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I think at the very least he has recreated the One-and-Eighty male channelers from the AOL...
23/09/2012 09:34:56 PM
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As I said he will almost certainly have Channelers
23/09/2012 09:47:53 PM
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All he needed to do was train 10 guys personally..
23/09/2012 09:51:46 PM
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It took Taim nearly a year to train a dozen men to a place where they could teach
23/09/2012 10:00:40 PM
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The world is 25,000 miles by 25,000 miles in size...
23/09/2012 10:15:22 PM
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That is just far fetched ... I think I would laugh out loud if that is the case
23/09/2012 10:43:37 PM
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Direct quote from Demandred refutes this...
23/09/2012 10:49:10 PM
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Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways
23/09/2012 10:55:00 PM
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"My rule is secure." Could Demandred be ruling an entire Mirror World?
23/09/2012 10:43:51 PM
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The changes in Moghedien
25/09/2012 03:29:15 AM
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I believe she commented on Graendal's strength, comparing it to Nynaeve or something?
25/09/2012 11:07:24 PM
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Well..
25/09/2012 11:15:21 PM
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Thanks for the quote, but reading that, it kind of implies the opposite, to me...
25/09/2012 11:35:53 PM
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Hmmm....
26/09/2012 12:00:33 AM
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Hehe, that old argument again.
26/09/2012 12:09:25 AM
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Yes.
26/09/2012 12:58:03 AM
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I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength
26/09/2012 04:11:16 AM
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Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength
26/09/2012 08:53:02 AM
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Well...
26/09/2012 09:09:38 AM
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Re: Well...
26/09/2012 10:17:03 AM
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Moiraine lost more than 2/3 of her strength. Siuan lost about that and Moiraine seems
26/09/2012 04:46:18 PM
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Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength
27/09/2012 03:00:04 AM
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Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength
27/09/2012 07:23:11 AM
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As always you forget book 4 is more than half way through the timeline of the series
26/09/2012 03:58:22 AM
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Actually......
26/09/2012 02:30:00 AM
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Not sure that's completely true..
26/09/2012 06:42:51 AM
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Probably something like this
26/09/2012 08:36:40 AM
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Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here...
26/09/2012 08:56:32 AM
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Re: Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here...
26/09/2012 10:01:08 AM
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Graendal almost has to be Stronger than Nynaeve
26/09/2012 05:57:35 PM
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One thing about that...
27/09/2012 02:58:56 AM
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Possible, but I find it unlikely
27/09/2012 06:16:56 AM
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The reason I think that...
27/09/2012 06:25:48 AM
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I always assumed Nynaeve at the top was a list he later revised as he decided to bring in
27/09/2012 06:39:35 AM
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I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice
26/09/2012 03:45:36 AM
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Re: I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice
26/09/2012 05:30:36 PM
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