Re: Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand
DomA Send a noteboard - 23/09/2012 05:50:48 PM
Moridin comments on it:
Too many of our number threw themselves into contests with al’Thor when he was presumed to be weak. M’Hael instead earned Lews Therin’s trust, then took charge of the training of his weapons.
The way this is worded leads me to believe Taim either took initiative on his own, or that Moridin was behind this move. Given his promotion to Chosen I tend to think Taim seized the opportunity in front of him. He could have met Demandred at anytime ... Seems most likely to have happened post-Cleansing since Demandred seems to have very little knowledge of the Asha'man at that point.
Too many of our number threw themselves into contests with al’Thor when he was presumed to be weak. M’Hael instead earned Lews Therin’s trust, then took charge of the training of his weapons.
The way this is worded leads me to believe Taim either took initiative on his own, or that Moridin was behind this move. Given his promotion to Chosen I tend to think Taim seized the opportunity in front of him. He could have met Demandred at anytime ... Seems most likely to have happened post-Cleansing since Demandred seems to have very little knowledge of the Asha'man at that point.
It's possible it's Taim idea all along, but from events in LOC it seems unlikely Demandred didn't have a big hand in it.
Taim expected to be taken as Rand's second at his side, in fact as his equal at his side. He was very clearly pissed off to be sent to the Farm and to have to train men there. At the next meeting his attitude had completely changed - he brought up the notion of recruiting, which was a major factor in the success of the "Shadow army hidden in plain sight" idea. Then Taim got his SG rock for his speeches, and it stretches credibility that overnight just like that he became a specialist of military organization. Ranking system, the layout of the grounds, the discipline, the indoctrinement, the training. That's a whole lot for an amateur. The whole thing reeks of Demandred's involvement at the early stages. It's pretty clear he advised Taim, though I'm sure he didn't take too direct an hand. Another thing to consider is who made Taim so paranoid about Rand's safety... which lead to Dumai's Wells. The book ends with Demandred being extremely pleased with himself too...
None of this undermines Taim's achievements. Demandred wasn't holding his hand. He really did all the field work, convinced Rand to trust him, convinced Rand to allow him to recruit and so on.
The comment about Demandred vs. Flinn is overstated. It merely means Demandred was not familiar with the Asha'man, it doesn't mean he wasn't advising Taim in the building of the BT.
Even before the Cleansing Demandred knew about DF Asha'man and was giving them orders, and warning them not to repeat their previous book's blunders. He was also acting in Taim's back at that point, and Moridin was Nae'blis, had sent Osan'gar to the BT and all. That's why I think Demandred set up the BT, one of a series of ventures to build himself forces to use in TG IMHO and not one of those he's most involved in I suspect as Taim was there for that, but he realized early Taim had divided loyalties. It may have to do with knowing all along that Taim is a DF who has been set up as False Dragon by Ishamael, that Demandred tried to replace Ishamael as his patron after TDR but Moridin's arrival meant he could no longer trust Taim to be fully his anymore. Mesaana was more or less in the same situation with the BA the rest of the Chosen were using as well (and yes, I think she built herself a group of agents in the Tower she had exclusive control over and that she preferred to rely on rather than Alviarin and the BA exclusively).
It seems obvious Demandred must be super pissed Taim was raised as his equal as Chosen. For sure there's gonna be some power struggles between those two. If my suspicions are correct and Demandred is in a "Taim would have achieved nothing without my help" viperous mood, we'll see some of Demandred's displeasure in some of his POV. He's just way too clever to show any of this in front of Moridin. I guess odds are we'll learn quite a bit more about how the BT came about.
This message last edited by DomA on 23/09/2012 at 06:07:07 PM
AMOL Prologue : Analysis of Forsaken section *major spoilers*
19/09/2012 05:47:21 PM
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You left out that Taim and Demandred have met before.
19/09/2012 06:19:01 PM
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Part of me keeps screaming Logain, though that can't be right...
20/09/2012 12:14:00 PM
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We have our answer as to why Cyndane and Moiraine are reduced in power.
20/09/2012 05:14:01 AM
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It was spelled out before.
20/09/2012 05:25:05 AM
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And some of us guessed that's what happened, we just didn't have evidence. *NM*
20/09/2012 12:04:18 PM
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Nor a lot of support for the idea...
22/09/2012 06:28:14 PM
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Really? Seemed like the obvious series of events
23/09/2012 02:32:35 PM
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I know...
23/09/2012 05:30:42 PM
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I'm not so sure
24/09/2012 05:32:50 PM
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Why question it?
25/09/2012 01:40:39 AM
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Re: Why question it?
25/09/2012 06:12:32 AM
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No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks
25/09/2012 04:10:04 PM
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Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks
25/09/2012 06:41:13 PM
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Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks
25/09/2012 07:21:03 PM
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Re: No she doesn't. She focuses on Graendal's punishment being about her looks
25/09/2012 07:53:47 PM
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Demandred - the wasted Forsaken
20/09/2012 08:14:15 PM
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Talmanes
23/09/2012 12:42:27 AM
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I think you once again overestimate my appreciation of the series.
25/09/2012 02:33:34 PM
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Re: Talmanes
02/10/2012 03:27:05 PM
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I'm disappointed after waiting a week for a new post in the Forsaken thread, it's about Talmanes!
02/10/2012 09:46:48 PM
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Two interesting Forsaken issues you haven't raised
22/09/2012 06:21:34 PM
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Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand
23/09/2012 02:53:32 AM
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Re: Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand
23/09/2012 05:50:48 PM
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I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring
23/09/2012 06:35:19 PM
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Re: I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring
23/09/2012 07:46:59 PM
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I have to wonder at Hessalam
23/09/2012 01:20:13 PM
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Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam
23/09/2012 06:52:10 PM
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I agree that B-Sand seems to have inserted Graendal into the Slayer plot line in TOM
23/09/2012 07:17:15 PM
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Re: I agree that B-Sand seems to have inserted Graendal into the Slayer plot line in TOM
23/09/2012 08:19:02 PM
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EDIT ... Demandred has only had about 9 months (according to wotchron)
23/09/2012 09:13:44 PM
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Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam
24/09/2012 05:18:29 PM
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So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? Shara or Isle of Madmen back on the table?
23/09/2012 08:01:03 PM
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Re: So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game?
23/09/2012 08:52:48 PM
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Interesting...
23/09/2012 09:06:18 PM
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Re: Interesting...
23/09/2012 11:31:31 PM
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I think we saw them during the attack on Maradon. The Portal Stone attack seems less likely
23/09/2012 11:41:42 PM
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If I had to take a guess right now I'd say he has been setting up various Shadow armies thought the
23/09/2012 09:30:34 PM
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I think at the very least he has recreated the One-and-Eighty male channelers from the AOL...
23/09/2012 09:34:56 PM
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As I said he will almost certainly have Channelers
23/09/2012 09:47:53 PM
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All he needed to do was train 10 guys personally..
23/09/2012 09:51:46 PM
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It took Taim nearly a year to train a dozen men to a place where they could teach
23/09/2012 10:00:40 PM
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The world is 25,000 miles by 25,000 miles in size...
23/09/2012 10:15:22 PM
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That is just far fetched ... I think I would laugh out loud if that is the case
23/09/2012 10:43:37 PM
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Direct quote from Demandred refutes this...
23/09/2012 10:49:10 PM
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Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways
23/09/2012 10:55:00 PM
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"My rule is secure." Could Demandred be ruling an entire Mirror World?
23/09/2012 10:43:51 PM
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The changes in Moghedien
25/09/2012 03:29:15 AM
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I believe she commented on Graendal's strength, comparing it to Nynaeve or something?
25/09/2012 11:07:24 PM
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Well..
25/09/2012 11:15:21 PM
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Thanks for the quote, but reading that, it kind of implies the opposite, to me...
25/09/2012 11:35:53 PM
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Hmmm....
26/09/2012 12:00:33 AM
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Hehe, that old argument again.
26/09/2012 12:09:25 AM
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Yes.
26/09/2012 12:58:03 AM
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I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength
26/09/2012 04:11:16 AM
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Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength
26/09/2012 08:53:02 AM
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Well...
26/09/2012 09:09:38 AM
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Re: Well...
26/09/2012 10:17:03 AM
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Moiraine lost more than 2/3 of her strength. Siuan lost about that and Moiraine seems
26/09/2012 04:46:18 PM
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Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength
27/09/2012 03:00:04 AM
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Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength
27/09/2012 07:23:11 AM
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As always you forget book 4 is more than half way through the timeline of the series
26/09/2012 03:58:22 AM
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Actually......
26/09/2012 02:30:00 AM
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Not sure that's completely true..
26/09/2012 06:42:51 AM
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Probably something like this
26/09/2012 08:36:40 AM
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Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here...
26/09/2012 08:56:32 AM
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Re: Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here...
26/09/2012 10:01:08 AM
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Graendal almost has to be Stronger than Nynaeve
26/09/2012 05:57:35 PM
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One thing about that...
27/09/2012 02:58:56 AM
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Possible, but I find it unlikely
27/09/2012 06:16:56 AM
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The reason I think that...
27/09/2012 06:25:48 AM
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I always assumed Nynaeve at the top was a list he later revised as he decided to bring in
27/09/2012 06:39:35 AM
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I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice
26/09/2012 03:45:36 AM
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Re: I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice
26/09/2012 05:30:36 PM
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