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Two interesting Forsaken issues you haven't raised DomA Send a noteboard - 22/09/2012 06:21:34 PM
At the beginning of the scene, Moridin tells Demandred and Moghedien that there are people they needed to meet, not that there was someone they needed to meet. He spoke clearly of more than just Taim.

He later specifically excluded Hessalam as being one of those people.

Then of course he introduced M'Hael, the (first?) new Chosen.
The scene ends in media res without any of the other people Moridin wanted the three original Chosen to meet being shown to us. How many more doors were to open once Moridin was done introducing M'Hael? (unless of course this is the result of bad editing again, and no one caught that if Moridin excluded Graendal, then he shouldn't say "there are people";)

Obviously if it's not a a mistake there are more, and from the way Moridin spoke of them being too few leaders/Chosen left for the Last Battle, I'd say there's 95% chances the other people he would go on to introduce behind the scene are also all new Chosen, or at the very least very high ranking agents of the Shadow for the LB.

It's interesting because at this point there's no one fully obvious. Of course there's Alviarin, chosen as Head of the Black Ajah by Ishamael himself, servant of Shaidar Haran who marked her as a pet. It remains to be seen if the DO thinks she deserves it - or that pragmatically she will just have to make do. Is she the one who managed to get a great deal of the BA out of the White Tower right before the purge? Is the disaster at the Tower blamed solely on Mesaana?

But there's also the fact it seems fairly obvious the "army now in need of proper monitoring" was to be originally lead by either Semirhage or Mesaana, though probably if it was Semirhage's Demandred first re assigned them to Mesaana's forces, and now is in need of another Chosen to lead this female army under him. That force likely includes the BA, which makes having Alviarin Chosen a bit redundant... unless like the BT the BA is kept apart, under Alviarin's leadership, perhaps originally to fall under Mesaana's control but now passing directly to Alviarin under Demandred or under Moridin. Which could leave an army of "various female channelers" be what Demandred needs Moghedien for. (and I still believe Mesaana had a group of agents hidden in TV beside the BA, a group of novices to be precise)

The fact Brandon chose to hint there's more new Chosen but not to reveal it plainly or tell us who they are suggests they are unrevealed DF channelers, and thus will start off as hidden infiltrated Forsaken.

One of those Chosen could be a Wise One, for example (no, it won't be Sorilea.) Other possibilities for a new Chosen include a Windfinder, a highly placed Seanchan, a Sharan leader, a leader of the Red Veils etc. At this point in the story, raising known characters we didn't know were DF would have more impact than introducing wholly new blokes as Chosen.

But aside from Alviarin, there's really no obvious candidate... But if there's only her beside Taim, there wasn't really much point to Brandon not revealing her beside M'Hael. There has to be at least one new Chosen Brandon really didn't want us to know about yet, probably because that character isn't revealed as a DF yet.

There is even the insinuation that Moridin himself doesn't know what Demandred is up to - and Demandred says that he will discover in due time and be shocked at what he's accomplished.


I don't interpret it that way at all. Moridin speaks elsewhere as if he clearly knows what Demandred is up to and what his forces are. He knows his plans, that the DO is pleased with them, that Demandred now has need of Moghedien. That's not what sparked Demandred's anger, it's Moridin's lack of respect for his accomplishments, his calling his followers "playthings" for example. Moridin is no doubt a great deal more satisfied with Demandred's results than he's willing to acknowledge wherever Demandred can hear (out of his presence, he spoke of him as having pleased very much the DO...). Openly he shows despise, and that grates Demandred. Another aspect is that Moridin is again probably showing a good dose of bad faith, with the fact that Demandred seems to have for the most part spent his time to prepare for the War and build himself armies, thus most of the fruits of his work are yet to come into play but Moridin chose to unfairly present that as Demandred not having produced concrete results yet. That's what angered Demandred and made him exclaim Moridin will see tons of results and be surprised by some of them. There is obviously some rivalry going between the two, as it appears more and more to me I was right Demandred has built himself hidden armies. Ishamael had no competition for thousands of years with building DF networks, the Black Ajah - and the Red Veils are almost certainly his creation as well. Demandred, who didn't have to hide his recruits carefully in plain sight for centuries, build structures so their organizations would be more or less automonous and so on probably got impressive results with intensive recruitment and secret training. That probably grates Moridin's pride a bit, or it's just Demandred's too great pride in his achievements, the fact it's a little too obvious Demandred seeks to outshine him, that grates him.

Incidentally, it seems pretty clear from the scene that the new Chosen M'Hael is, or at least was, under Demandred's sphere of influence yet that he was Moridin's protégé in the first place. I think now that Ishamael was behind Taim proclaiming himself Dragon, perhaps also Ishamael's the one who ordered Alviarin to organize his escape, before he died in Tear. Then, I think it was Demandred's idea when he learned of the amnesty to find and send Taim to Rand, originally to become his second at his side. Rand offered better: he put Taim in charge of training the Asha'man, and it's probable that while it was Taim's doing, Demandred helped him. I suspect Demandred distanced himself from the Black Tower project later when Moridin arrived and meddled. Taim had been his pawn, and with Moridin back in play Demandred could no longer fully trust him. That's when Demandred started going in Taim's back, and when Taim started to turn the place into a second fortress bearing Moridin's colors.

And it doesn't sound like Demandred is behind the battle of Caemlyn after all. It sounds more and more like this happened on Moridin's orders, a plan which earliest pieces go way back to Shiaine and Hanlon, the orders from Moghedien and so on. Whatever was in store for Elayne didn't work, as she left the city. It still looks like the whole thing is meant to get rid of Caemlyn which Queen, walls, sheer size and ressources threatened the safety of the BT during TG, and to give free access to a Waygate to the BT, but this appears to be a plan of Moridin linked with Taim, not Demandred, like giving Taim a Dreamspike. It looks to me like Moridin doesn't intend to leave nearly all the control of the War to Demandred.
This message last edited by DomA on 22/09/2012 at 06:42:04 PM
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AMOL Prologue : Analysis of Forsaken section *major spoilers* - 19/09/2012 05:47:21 PM 3083 Views
You left out that Taim and Demandred have met before. - 19/09/2012 06:19:01 PM 1334 Views
Part of me keeps screaming Logain, though that can't be right... - 20/09/2012 12:14:00 PM 1287 Views
I thought of Logain as well... - 20/09/2012 06:10:58 PM 1161 Views
We have our answer as to why Cyndane and Moiraine are reduced in power. - 20/09/2012 05:14:01 AM 1245 Views
It was spelled out before. - 20/09/2012 05:25:05 AM 1108 Views
And some of us guessed that's what happened, we just didn't have evidence. *NM* - 20/09/2012 12:04:18 PM 648 Views
Nor a lot of support for the idea... - 22/09/2012 06:28:14 PM 1085 Views
Really? Seemed like the obvious series of events - 23/09/2012 02:32:35 PM 1037 Views
I know... - 23/09/2012 05:30:42 PM 1079 Views
I'm not so sure - 24/09/2012 05:32:50 PM 1058 Views
Why question it? - 25/09/2012 01:40:39 AM 960 Views
Re: Why question it? - 25/09/2012 06:12:32 AM 915 Views
Six Chosen... - 20/09/2012 05:19:17 AM 1262 Views
It's fan fiction, but it's cannon fan fiction - 20/09/2012 06:55:18 AM 1228 Views
Demandred - the wasted Forsaken - 20/09/2012 08:14:15 PM 1136 Views
RJ's writing was bad. Sanderson's is far worse. *NM* - 21/09/2012 06:19:04 AM 651 Views
Re: Demandred - the wasted Forsaken - 22/09/2012 07:23:19 PM 1024 Views
Talmanes - 23/09/2012 12:42:27 AM 1435 Views
Re: Talmanes - 02/10/2012 03:27:05 PM 883 Views
Two interesting Forsaken issues you haven't raised - 22/09/2012 06:21:34 PM 1294 Views
Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand - 23/09/2012 02:53:32 AM 1023 Views
Re: Seems to me that Taim himself was behind going to Rand - 23/09/2012 05:50:48 PM 1031 Views
I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring - 23/09/2012 06:35:19 PM 968 Views
Re: I think I rebel against this thought process because of the Taimandred Red Herring - 23/09/2012 07:46:59 PM 1210 Views
The first time we hear about Transmigration is in LOC - 23/09/2012 08:50:10 PM 1214 Views
Why was Ishamael reinstantiated as Nae'blis after his death? - 02/10/2012 10:17:03 PM 1036 Views
I have to wonder at Hessalam - 23/09/2012 01:20:13 PM 1225 Views
Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam - 23/09/2012 06:52:10 PM 1281 Views
Re: I have to wonder at Hessalam - 24/09/2012 05:18:29 PM 1460 Views
I don't think she's old. Just really really really ugly! - 25/09/2012 03:22:56 AM 945 Views
Re: I don't think she's old. Just really really really ugly! - 25/09/2012 06:13:51 AM 995 Views
So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? Shara or Isle of Madmen back on the table? - 23/09/2012 08:01:03 PM 1039 Views
Re: So based on this new info, what is Demandred's big game? - 23/09/2012 08:52:48 PM 1165 Views
Interesting... - 23/09/2012 09:06:18 PM 990 Views
Re: Interesting... - 23/09/2012 11:31:31 PM 1187 Views
Just one comment.. - 23/09/2012 11:53:09 PM 1660 Views
If I had to take a guess right now I'd say he has been setting up various Shadow armies thought the - 23/09/2012 09:30:34 PM 984 Views
I think at the very least he has recreated the One-and-Eighty male channelers from the AOL... - 23/09/2012 09:34:56 PM 1081 Views
As I said he will almost certainly have Channelers - 23/09/2012 09:47:53 PM 1220 Views
All he needed to do was train 10 guys personally.. - 23/09/2012 09:51:46 PM 887 Views
It took Taim nearly a year to train a dozen men to a place where they could teach - 23/09/2012 10:00:40 PM 857 Views
The world is 25,000 miles by 25,000 miles in size... - 23/09/2012 10:15:22 PM 965 Views
That is just far fetched ... I think I would laugh out loud if that is the case - 23/09/2012 10:43:37 PM 955 Views
Direct quote from Demandred refutes this... - 23/09/2012 10:49:10 PM 930 Views
Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways - 23/09/2012 10:55:00 PM 958 Views
Re: Demanded is much more like Mesaana in his ways - 23/09/2012 11:36:54 PM 963 Views
Not really - 24/09/2012 12:31:48 AM 1018 Views
"My rule is secure." Could Demandred be ruling an entire Mirror World? - 23/09/2012 10:43:51 PM 1050 Views
I can certainly something like this happening - 23/09/2012 10:50:35 PM 852 Views
I'm not sure it's possible... - 24/09/2012 03:02:26 AM 991 Views
I think ... - 24/09/2012 05:36:38 PM 973 Views
The changes in Moghedien - 25/09/2012 03:29:15 AM 848 Views
I believe she commented on Graendal's strength, comparing it to Nynaeve or something? - 25/09/2012 11:07:24 PM 994 Views
Well.. - 25/09/2012 11:15:21 PM 862 Views
Thanks for the quote, but reading that, it kind of implies the opposite, to me... - 25/09/2012 11:35:53 PM 1170 Views
Hmmm.... - 26/09/2012 12:00:33 AM 915 Views
Hehe, that old argument again. - 26/09/2012 12:09:25 AM 810 Views
Yes. - 26/09/2012 12:58:03 AM 809 Views
I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength - 26/09/2012 04:11:16 AM 899 Views
Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength - 26/09/2012 08:53:02 AM 861 Views
Well... - 26/09/2012 09:09:38 AM 825 Views
Re: Well... - 26/09/2012 10:17:03 AM 956 Views
Nice speculation. I like that type of calculation. - 26/09/2012 10:59:43 AM 886 Views
Re: Well... - 27/09/2012 03:12:06 AM 840 Views
Re: Well... - 27/09/2012 08:17:07 AM 832 Views
Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength - 27/09/2012 03:00:04 AM 905 Views
Re: I agree the Forsaken are all pretty close in effective Strength - 27/09/2012 07:23:11 AM 869 Views
Actually...... - 26/09/2012 02:30:00 AM 965 Views
Agree with this.. - 26/09/2012 06:12:34 AM 780 Views
Not sure that's completely true.. - 26/09/2012 06:42:51 AM 841 Views
Re: Not sure that's completely true.. - 26/09/2012 03:02:41 PM 981 Views
This is what I've been saying for years! - 26/09/2012 05:48:01 PM 714 Views
Re: Not sure that's completely true.. - 27/09/2012 03:17:00 AM 861 Views
Probably something like this - 26/09/2012 08:36:40 AM 863 Views
Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here... - 26/09/2012 08:56:32 AM 833 Views
Re: Probably true, but maybe a hint from a Sanderson interview should be considered here... - 26/09/2012 10:01:08 AM 781 Views
Graendal almost has to be Stronger than Nynaeve - 26/09/2012 05:57:35 PM 1027 Views
One thing about that... - 27/09/2012 02:58:56 AM 926 Views
Possible, but I find it unlikely - 27/09/2012 06:16:56 AM 823 Views
The reason I think that... - 27/09/2012 06:25:48 AM 863 Views
I always assumed Nynaeve at the top was a list he later revised as he decided to bring in - 27/09/2012 06:39:35 AM 935 Views
Of course that's the correct answer, yes. - 27/09/2012 08:12:45 AM 1004 Views
I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice - 26/09/2012 03:45:36 AM 901 Views
Re: I wasn't making a Strength comparison ... I was commenting on her lack of cowardice - 26/09/2012 05:30:36 PM 974 Views
That is the question I was getting at - 26/09/2012 06:00:03 PM 931 Views
Re: That is the question I was getting at - 26/09/2012 07:01:34 PM 954 Views

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