Re: Explain why Taringail didn't become King after Laman's death then
DomA Send a noteboard - 30/05/2012 02:22:21 PM
1. Taringail did not become King, despite Tigrain being long gone from Andor without a female Hier, why did he not revert to Laman's Hier when he was no longer married to a foreign sovereign?
A reread would have helped you there...
There is a line of succession in Cairhien, but in all your arguments you fail to factor in the fact the Game of Houses play there as great a role, if not greater. You also forget these aren't modern states, with an independent judicial branch. Successions are always messy, because the ultimate holder of judicial power is the ruler and when he/she's dead there's no longer an executive judicial power to force the players to respect the laws... laws are respected only if the most powerful players manage to impose it. Situations like this happened in nearly all the European monarchies, and it does in WOT. That's exactly what happened in Andor, when the likes of Arymilla disregarded the succession law. That's exactly what happened in Cairhien with Elayne (at the very least, it's obvious if it's the law a candidate can't be married to a foreign ruler to avoid a foreign throne to control Cairhien, a foreign ruler herself would be even less eligible, by law or by opposition of the Houses).
Even the direct heir needs his own House to support his claim for the Throne (meaning any unsuitable candidate, however high standing, or one that wouldn't be able to gain support from the other Houses, may be pushed aside), and needs wide support from Houses of sufficient power to make the move. Taking the throne of Cairhien is essentially all about being powerful enough that those who would oppose you won't move against you, or if they do, will be defeated or isolated. That's how Galldrian gained the throne, and that's how Colavaere gained the throne. It's similar in Andor, just more formalized and less messy. Arymilla, Nean and co. had nowhere the blood claim of Elayne (not to mention by Andoran law Elayne was the recognized heir - the Houses chose not to support her, turning this into a Succession war), but if they managed to get the support of ten Houses, that would have been overlooked.
Taringail wasn't Laman's heir, Fionwe invented that. By Cairhienin law (it's stated black on white in NS), he couldn't even be Laman's heir because of his wedding to Tigraine (and Morgase later). Laman's heir was his next brother (Aldecain or Moressin, both heirless), then the next. Their brother, Moiraine's father, was dead, and so his son was next, and Moiraine's half-sisters. Then Moiraine, who was youngest child. There were more distant relatives, like Laman's cousin Barthanes, Caraline, probably more people at the time, but clearly they were not yet powerful enough within House Damodred at the time (it's obviously the deaths of Laman, his two brothers, later of Taringail - and Moiraine's self-removal from Cairhienin politics - that opened the way to their rise toward more prominence). Barthanes later on (by the time of TGH, I mean) might have been able to pull it off and regain the Throne if Galldrian died, but clearly Caraline herself wasn't powerful enough to forestall Colavaere.
House Damodred had gained a very bad reputation with Laman and the predecessors (except his mother), which didn't help its prospects with the other Houses. It was also stripped of its three top players in one blow. The moment Moiraine heard of her three uncles' deaths, she figured out the Crown would most likely pass to another House, that Daes'daemar would decide which one...
Taringail was denied a claim by law, because he was married to the Queen of Andor (Taringail must have bitterly regretted having married Morgase not long ago when he heard Laman had died - his frustration at having missed the Throne for that marriage probably played a role in fuelling his later ambitions in Andor, though I still suspect Taringail never truly plotted to murder Morgase. I believe it's Elaida who manipulated Thom into removing Taringail, then moved to remove Thom himself. I think it's Elaida and Thom Taringail plotted to murder or remove. It's them who stood in his way to political influence over Morgase, which he needed to build to one day place Galad on the Cairhienin throne. It's part of the story Moiraine means to reveal to Thom, as it's part of the explanation why his nephew died the way he did).
The law that excluded Taringail was "A stupid Law", by the reckoning of the Grey Ajah/WT that apparently would have seen nothing wrong in the reunion of the Cairhien-Andor crowns, but "a law he (Taringail) can't change unless he was King". Yes, that's one thing you forgot: Morgase was Queen when Laman died, Elaida already her advisor. Obviously, no law stripped Galad of his birthright, why do think Taringail hoped to make him King of Cairhien one day? Why do you think Elayne managed to put her birthright forward? That she succeeded was all a matter of support, but clearly no law stood against her or Galad. Only Taringail was excluded from the line of succession, not his offspring. Taringail excluded by law, Anvaere Damodred was then Laman's closest relative, followed by Innloine, Moiraine, Galad, the sister's children. And then it went to cousins of Laman, like Barthanes, and eventually children of cousins (likely) like Caraline. If Anvaere's children survived, they're clearly not all that powerful.
Moiraine said neither of her sisters would ever manage to gain enough support for the Throne from within House Damodred itself, let alone with the other Houses. Herself wouldn't put her claim forward (and thought as Aes Sedai, that might lead to much opposition, and woes if with WT support she won). Evidently, a Damodred toddler wouldn't be able to gain support either (if that's even legal in Cairhien for a minor to inherit the Throne. Anvaere's children were not even mentionned as possibilities so...), and if Anvaere and Innloine were not suitable for the throne, neither would have been suitable as Galad's regent either anyway.
With the disarray in House Damodred, Galldrian su Riatin managed to find enough support to gain the Throne. He had no direct heir (Toram seems to be a cousin, himself had no direct heir, but a sister). Evidently, Taringail had hopes (were they realistic ones, we'll never know...) he might manage to gain enough support in House Damodred for his son when he was on age in the eventuality Galldrian died (and that's Cairhien... nothing says Taringail intended to wait for Galldrian's natural death) and Barthanes had managed to grab the High Seat of Damodred (we don't know exactly when, but likely quite before Taringail was murdered, as it was some years after Laman's death).
aMoL UK cover and Blurb (SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!)
21/05/2012 06:44:26 PM
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Thoughts...
21/05/2012 06:46:41 PM
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Re: Thoughts...
21/05/2012 08:45:41 PM
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Re: Thoughts...
21/05/2012 09:04:09 PM
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Re: Thoughts...
21/05/2012 09:35:29 PM
- 1133 Views
Mat and the madness...
21/05/2012 10:30:09 PM
- 1076 Views
Nynaeve's revelation may make the AS even more worried of Rand being mad
21/05/2012 10:58:37 PM
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Not Egwene though...
21/05/2012 11:02:41 PM
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Maybe, maybe not ... Nynaeve just gave everyone proof of the extent of his possible madness
21/05/2012 11:26:41 PM
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Re: Maybe, maybe not ... Nynaeve just gave everyone proof of the extent of his possible madness
22/05/2012 01:14:05 AM
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Re: Mat and the madness...
22/05/2012 02:29:31 AM
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Rand's dreams...
22/05/2012 02:42:36 AM
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She assumes he's mad just like most people assume a 19 year old boy is horney
22/05/2012 03:47:49 AM
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Everything Egwene's little pea-brain does not grasp has always been a sign of madness to her.
21/05/2012 11:05:44 PM
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Oh read the books will you?
21/05/2012 11:12:06 PM
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I'd rather not. For different reasons, it's kind of painful to read those by either author.
22/05/2012 04:46:20 AM
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What caught my eye there was "Trollocs seize Caemlyn."
22/05/2012 02:12:25 PM
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As much as I would love Moiraine to go with him to Ebou Dar
22/05/2012 07:20:40 PM
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At this stage, all roads lead to Rand.
22/05/2012 09:08:42 PM
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Re: At this stage, all roads lead to Rand.
23/05/2012 08:07:56 PM
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Well, like I say, there is no reason they could not ALL meet up with Tuon.
23/05/2012 08:53:53 PM
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Re: Well, like I say, there is no reason they could not ALL meet up with Tuon.
23/05/2012 09:01:10 PM
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It all depends on whether the actual Crystal Throne is, as many suspect, a ter'angreal.
23/05/2012 09:22:47 PM
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Re: It all depends on whether the actual Crystal Throne is, as many suspect, a ter'angreal.
24/05/2012 07:34:40 AM
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Re: It all depends on whether the actual Crystal Throne is, as many suspect, a ter'angreal.
25/05/2012 01:23:21 AM
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Re: Well, like I say, there is no reason they could not ALL meet up with Tuon.
24/05/2012 02:41:55 PM
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Aviendha's visions from Rhuidean indicate he will kneel...
24/05/2012 07:04:02 PM
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Re: Aviendha's visions from Rhuidean indicate he will kneel...
26/05/2012 09:42:20 PM
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Agreed...
26/05/2012 09:57:06 PM
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I think you are extrapolating some of his actions into more than he intends
26/05/2012 10:37:44 PM
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Re: Agreed...
27/05/2012 04:26:15 AM
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I think you're both wrong...
27/05/2012 08:41:50 AM
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I'm sure that is part of it, but I very much doubt he is thinking in terms of succession
27/05/2012 01:41:37 PM
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I can't believe Galad will be accepted as a ruler since he is the Lord Captain Commander
28/05/2012 02:48:26 AM
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Re: I can't believe Galad will be accepted as a ruler since he is the Lord Captain Commander
28/05/2012 04:54:46 PM
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That makes no sense
28/05/2012 05:50:16 PM
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Taringail was Laman's heir...
28/05/2012 07:20:07 PM
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You are answering the wrong question
29/05/2012 02:19:48 PM
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No. I've answered the exact question. You seem to have missed it.
29/05/2012 04:40:17 PM
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Yet not one of these things actually happened
29/05/2012 10:13:35 PM
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You're being absurd...
30/05/2012 01:04:36 AM
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Explain why Taringail didn't become King after Laman's death then
30/05/2012 05:48:48 AM
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30/05/2012 06:11:02 AM
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Why then would Taringail, an ambitious man, renounce a Throne?
30/05/2012 06:22:08 AM
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We don't fully know...
30/05/2012 06:43:30 AM
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You just flipped your last statement
30/05/2012 06:55:36 AM
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You seem extremely confused...
30/05/2012 09:56:30 AM
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Not confused, simply not satisfied with the information we have
30/05/2012 12:15:59 PM
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Re: Not confused, simply not satisfied with the information we have
30/05/2012 03:34:06 PM
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I am not contesting the information we have
30/05/2012 04:48:08 PM
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You're impossible...
30/05/2012 10:02:59 PM
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Re: Explain why Taringail didn't become King after Laman's death then
30/05/2012 02:22:21 PM
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See this maps back to my original stance ... Thanks for pointing out that Fionwe invented that
30/05/2012 05:09:14 PM
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Good, now you have one last thing (a few inches long) to remember so everything becomes clear....
30/05/2012 10:50:33 PM
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Re: That makes no sense
29/05/2012 04:39:45 PM
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Only one other thing...
29/05/2012 04:53:29 PM
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No. If that was the case Taringail would have been King of Cairhien and not have married Morgase *NM*
30/05/2012 05:52:18 AM
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Bryne was Captain General not First Prince and Taringail was Prince Consort not FP
30/05/2012 06:07:48 AM
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Bryne was First Prince Regent.
30/05/2012 06:19:33 AM
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No Forsaken will go near that Ter'angreal
26/05/2012 10:33:20 PM
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Re: No Forsaken will go near that Ter'angreal
27/05/2012 03:23:12 AM
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Aviendha reprogrammed the ter'angreal
27/05/2012 01:50:19 PM
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Re: Aviendha reprogrammed the ter'angreal
27/05/2012 06:44:41 PM
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I'd have to re-read to be 100% certain, but the way I read the passage
28/05/2012 02:10:14 AM
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Re: I'd have to re-read to be 100% certain, but the way I read the passage
28/05/2012 03:33:18 PM
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I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one *NM*
28/05/2012 05:18:40 PM
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He might not literally kneel before the ter'angreal, but almost certainly must meet with Tuon soon.
25/05/2012 03:40:54 AM
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