Which she met well, IMHO.

Not just good intentions, but good results, legitimately achieved. There is little to condemn there; less able/scrupulous rulers could abuse any or all Elaynes ends and means, but that applies to any ends and means. The issue is a bit broader than Elaynes conduct as Andors monarch, but legitimate powers potential for illegitimate abuse amply justifies strong public oversight and accountability, without justifying anarchy.


Yes, but of THOSE things do flame-wars consist. I do not mind flame-wars, as such, except that they are counterproductive bandwidth wastes.


Fine, but criticisms of the Amyrlin, either the office or its occupant, belong there, not with any one Aes Sedai/ruler circumstance forces to operate amid and despite the Amyrlins influential failings. If that is cause to condemn Elayne, virtually all Westlands rulers are guilty twice or even thrice over: During the WTs civil war, each repeatedly refused to commit to either side, desperately trying to preserve relations with both until the eventual triumph of one clarified.

Rather than prostrating Andor to Tar Valon, Elayne has used her Aes Sedai status mostly for Andors sake. The only place she might be accused of doing otherwise is Merrilor, where she agreed to no more than every other ruler has. Even there, it is FAR from clear she will bring Andors army to support Egwene; her specific comments on the subject indicate just the opposite.


Likely so, but that opportunity is unexploitable from an antagonistic position. I do not expect Elayne to be TOO exploitive, because she remains Aes Sedai and Egwenes friend, but she is savvy enough those facts will not blind her to the ramifications of the Tower and Andors positions and relationship. She could only miss them if she WERE blind; as you note, she has the BT on her doorstep and the Kin in her parlor.

Yet even were she willing to pull the trigger on the threat of a rival Tower, it is a single-shot weapon: Once used, they are no longer sometimes competitors and allies, but total and permanent adversaries. On the heels of a succession war and eve of TG, as she tries to integrate three entire kingdoms, that is not a fight she would want to pick even without additional personal loyalties, and not one in Andors interests anyway.

Elayne can afford non-engagement no more than appeasement, particularly with a power holding more influence than any other in all other Westlands nations. It was no accident Ishara cultivated Andors unique relationship with Tar Valon, any more than it was incidental to Andors subsequent progress and stature. No wise ruler casually provokes a powerful ally of millennia to the point antagonism replaces alliance, and Elayne would not do so even absent personal ties to the Tower.


Elaynes plans for Merrilor, like those of the other rulers, is unclear, probably by design. So long as their intent remains unknown, they have leverage with both Amyrlin and Dragon, which committing, especially openly, would greatly diminish (except for those willing to be known as untrustworthy, whose "support" is obviously worthless.) Andor might benefit from a few subtle barbs, but not from free agency, which would present them as a loose cannon the Tower could (and would) easily isolate from all other parties. Hawkwing largely succeeded in that because one of the strongest ta'veren and best generals in history, but Elayne is neither, and Randland can ill afford another Consolidation when the Seanchan have conquered half the Westlands and TG is clearly imminent.


Not that I think you truly wrong, but they clearly cannot see it. For Aes Sedai (all of whom passed final testing,) it is a question of paramount discipline, whose absence dooms those lost or st/killed. They can or will not see the extent they can make not only passing but surviving testing nigh impossible even with supreme discipline.

Note, however, it is only "nigh" impossible; Nynaeve succeeded despite people not only professionally but personally committed to her failure, just as Moiraine and Siuan did. Aes Sedai being Aes Sedai, virtually all receive final testing from one or more women personally antagonistic toward them and/or convinced of their unworthiness, yet Aes Sedai are still raised. A significant number overcoming great challenges, produced as much by personal animosity as by rigorous testing, is an argument for the Towers view discipline is critical.

What imperiled Nynaeve is what revealed the extent to which test administrators hold applicant lives in their hands: Her repeated success against their challenges infuriated her proctors beyond reason, until THEIR discipline broke and they employed lethal threats unsurvivable under the tests supposedly inviolable standards. Recall Elaidas chastisement for going too far during Moiraines testing. Nynaeves problem was having no voice of reason there to defend her, because the childhood friend she mentored was too uncharacteristically concerned with the appearance of impropriety.

Nynaeve is a special case in many ways, in this instance because still feeling her way with both Aes Sedai and Amyrlin. In ToM, Egwene made a point of impressing the need to see her as Amyrlin rather than Egwene now; she may regret that at Merrilor. Nynaeves inclination to see Egwene as the friend with whom she plotted to winnow Black Ajah from within the Towers hierarchy, rather than as that hierarchys leader, dampens her impulse to challenge the leader.

The same is true to a lesser extent for Egwenes former Novice roommate, but Elaynes rearing conditions her to recognize and react to the change more promptly than Nynaeve. She notes as much during the PoV referenced below; "a Queen's closest friend among her subjects knew she was the Queen as well as a friend, had to know." Initially, Egwenes rise to the stole largely left the three of them still working together toward shared goals (usually at odds with the rest of the Tower,) but recognition as Amyrlin in fact as well as name signals coming conflicts. Soon she will no longer stand athwart the Tower at their sides, but at its head in their faces.

Give it time. They are used to thinking supporting Egwene IS bucking the system; it will take a while for them to realize how much she has become a part of it. Ultimately, they should both see how a close relationship with the Amyrlin lets them buck the system far more effectively (e.g. the Tower angrily demanding the return of an angreal Siuan loaned Moiraine without their knowledge; was it ever actually returned, or did Lanfear end up with it?) First they must realize how becoming an officer ruined a good sergeant, which often requires things like Merrilor and Nynaeves testing.

Maybe with luck Egwene will even see there are people with whom she should cooperate, council (again, like Siuan and Moiraine,) rather then just trying to manipulate.


Well, alright; even the technicality was not Aes Sedai authority infringing on Andors sovereignty, but preventing the latter by exploiting the Borderlanders misplaced respect for the former, to avoid premature assumption of Andoran authority she yet lacked.


Debatable; they deliberately brought thirteen Aes Sedai to force him to meet them as a man. They held the eventual meeting at Far Madding for the same reason. There is the True Power, but that is a tiger-by-the-tail of last resort. Their intent was to either obtain the prophecy-fulfilling answer or perform the prophecy-fulfilling execution; the Foretelling impelling them indicates they could have been a mortal problem for him if they so wished.


Yet any Aes Sedai could (and would) have done the same, a status quo not of Elaynes making, so objections to it do not properly lie with her. Fortunately, it was she who exploited it in Andors interests, which were thus protected, but general objections to Aes Sedai having the necessary influence are complaints against, not Elayne, but Randland (or the Borderlanders; TVs respect grows with both distance from it and proximity to the Blight.)


Nice try, but the WT is not a profit based institution founded in a separate sovereign state, but a spiritual order with its own state, whose members chief loyalty is to it above and often in place of previous national allegiance. Arad Domans Council of Merchants consists of multinationals; Tar Valon is, once again, the closest thing Randland has to a church apart from the Whitecloaks. I mean, really, "the Flame of Tar Valon?" That implicitly (if figuratively) proclaims the Amyrlin the human embodiment of half the Creators One Power. It may not be "Christs Vicar on Earth," but is as close as anyone but the Dragon Reborn can get.


Excuse me saying so, but your qualified arguments for supporting the Roman Catholic Church sound similar to those I would expect from any intelligent knowledgeable Aes Sedai. Apart from the Whitecloaks (whose doctrine requires regarding the Dragon Reborns channeling as proof such foulness it demands summary execution,) they are the sole organization explicitly dedicated both to serving the Creator and opposing the DO, generally and at TG specifically. Another difference between TV and a multi-national: I know of no multinational that maintains and trains its largest department solely to fight alongside Christ at Armageddon (not that He needs the help, mind, but you surely take my point.)

The fount of all the Towers well intentioned horrors is the vital valid end of saving creation from the DO; during the 3000 years they prevented another Taint-spawned Breaking, through the Dragons Rebirth and through TG. That would not excuse their excesses even if all served those ends, as some (e.g. Manetheren, Hawkwing) manifestly did not. However, the Roman Catholic Church is a far better model than any multinational for a millennia old spiritual order with monastic training and catechism, wielding both temporal influence and divinely granted power in war against ultimate evil, culminating in the saviors prophecied return and Armageddon. That is before throwing in the city-state all nations recognize as their peer.

The Towers pursuit of its noblest goals has been far from perfect, of course. Carnal greed and envy have often compromised them, even done them grave irreparable harm on occasion. It has nonetheless usually adhered to its catechism and moral principles, and declared anathema on the several glaring exceptions (a phenomenon not unique to that fictional organization; my wifes interest in the Borgia TV series prompted some more reading I wish I had declined. )


Yes. Richelieus position might be more instructive, however (no surprise which of them was canonized. ) Unlike officers of multinationals (but very like Aes Sedai advisors,) he and the priest you referenced were both senior advisors to heads of state on general state policy, not just religious matters.

"Rather than" is tied to "wholly distinct." The Queen of Andor and an Aes Sedai may be distinct, but Elayne Trakand is a single entity who must balance the disparate and sometimes conflicting obligations of both. She can no more put sisterhood aside upon the throne than JFK could stop being Catholic on entering the Oval Office. The best analysis is in her own PoV when returning to Andor, reflecting on Egwenes stern response to Elayne and Nynaeves Sea Folk bargain:

I suspect Egwene is in for a rude awakening; she expects Elayne to automatically take her friend the Amyrlins side, but will likely find Andors queen will not commit her people to coercing her lovers obedience, not even to her Amyrlin.


The Tower might (unofficially) turn its back on her, but she could not turn her back on it; she pledged herself to it as surely as to Andor. As for that not being her choice to make: Please; history is filled with heirs-apparent who even renounced thrones for monastic orders. Perhaps Elayne should have done the same on becoming Aes Sedai, but that would just have plunged Andor back into the succession war on the eve of the Last Battle, hardly in the nations interest.


True enough, but Andor has little motive to reject its few resulting Tower obligations. The big one is Merrilor, which exists not because the queen is Aes Sedai, but because the Amyrlin insistently "requests" all heads of state be present, and none wishes to be absent from such a council. It is unwise to mark oneself as the Towers foe when the Amyrlin holds a council with world leaders that even includes the Whitecloaks Lord Captain Commander. That is a fine way to discover ones nation subjected to something like the Partitions of Poland: Divided among neighbors, the action internationally recognized as legal, almost unanimously (Wikipedia claims the Ottomans, of all people, never recognized its allies extinguishing Poland, retaining a Polish ambassador until their own dissolution.)

Again, Merrilor is as much opportunity as obligation, and could be powerfully so: If the Aes Sedai queen takes the lead in opposing the Amyrlins policy, that is plenty of cover for any and all other heads of state to follow suit. In that instance, the Tower does need Andor far more than Andor needs the Tower, because if Elayne does not support Egwenes position, neither will anyone else.

Certainly the onus is on Elayne to assert the limits of Tower authority and influence within Andor as appropriate, but I honestly cannot think of many occasions so far where it HAS been appropriate. Short of banishing all Aes Sedai (presumably including herself) I am unsure what you desire of her.


That would not happen regardless, as you know well. Going along changes nothing, but refusing to go along would isolate Andor (a BAD thing.)


Quite so, but this is about Elayne, not Egwene. Merrilor is likely to blow up in Egwenes face, as Elayne helps fan the flames, hardly a mark against the latter.


Most likely the Borderlands, with whom it shares a common, strong and horrific enemy poised to deliver a mortal blow of which they will bear the brunt. However, if every nation BUT Andor were present, the Tower could pick and choose; your questions answer would then be "EVERYONE except the Seanchan."

Obviously, if Merrilor goes as Egwene hopes neither the nations Egwenes lover controls nor his vassals will be much problem, since the meetings whole point is turning them and everyone else to Egwenes side against him. At that stage, being his lover and leading the only absent army would be a MAJOR liability, and the pertinent question "Who are ANDORS potential allies? The nations that just betrayed Rand to escape his (and in Cairhiens case, her) yoke, or the Seanchan who would put a collar around her neck?" Fortunately, Merrilor will not go that way, but Elayne has no assurance of that (quite the opposite,) and Rand gives her strong reason to be present wholly apart from Andor or the Tower.

Seriously, it is unwise (and poor leadership) for heads of state to abstain from international councils, particularly on weighty topics (breaking the final Seals and initiating TG definitely count) whether or not they accept the final agreement. Historically, opposing the known world has a messy unpleasant endgame.


There is a bit more to it; Elayne was a Tower initiate long before she met Egwene. That is an asset rather than liability for a queen. Unless we are to believe Egwene will betray Andor to the Shadow out of petty jealousy of Elayne (even though the last Amyrlin who did that was stilled for it) it seems a safe bet the Tower will leap to oppose all threats to the first (known) Aes Sedai-ruled kingdom in two thousand years.

Anyone negotiating agreements with Andor will have fun, too. The Gray Ajah can no longer offer an impartial third party, since Elayne knows many and shares an allegiance with all. Real advantages come with her serpent ring, wholly apart from its impression on rulers facing both queen AND Aes Sedai combined in negotiations. The truth the Queen of Andor speaks is not the truth one hears; trying to stick a dagger in her back gives her carte blanche to incinerate ones army.


Possible, though extremely unlikely, but I think they underestimated the wilfulness common in Andor (and its monarchs,) generally feeling as you do: Obligations to Andor will be slight; those from it, great. However, any advantages exist only as long as Elaynes rule, giving them a strong vested interest in preserving it. That is probably the biggest obligation, and similar ones flow from it.

In general, an Aes Sedai on the throne means what is good for Andor is good for the Tower, giving the Tower incentive to make things as good as possible for Andor. Elaynes reign must be as peaceful and prosperous as possible to redeem the notoriously selfish scheming Aes Sedai in the eyes of the world. As already noted, Andor almost automatically has the edge in any international negotiations, because no truly impartial Gray Ajah arbitrators exist, which other nations know even if the Tower never actually DOES anything; advantage: Andor.

If negotiations break down and war commences, the Tower will not stand aside and watch the first Aes Sedai Queen in 2000 years fall, so guess whose armies will have a score of her closest friends on hand for Healing during and after each battle. Guess whose armies will have NONE. Theoretically, if Elayne decides to employ the classic Andoran "ride out in front of the army" gambit she could lay waste to the opposition with any angreal she currently has on loan from the Tower, which would be devastating given her strength in the Power.

At the spectrums opposite end, the Tower intervened in a trivial border dispute between Andor and a minor Murandian noble it hoped to make a king strong enough to end the countrys anarchy and banditry. What will it do for an existing Aes Sedai queen ruling the largest Westland kingdom? Many disputes will never need formal negotiation, let alone war. The robust sophisticated Tower diplomatic corps present nearly everywhere will consistently advocate Andors position in all disputes.

The Towers chief obligation to Andor under Elayne is to preserve her kingdom and forward its interests for their own sake, which provides Andor many benefits. It could be the first nation in 2000 years CERTAIN Aes Sedai acting on its behalf actually do so. Andor has few liabilities unless Tower conditioning convinces Elayne to roll over for its every whim. The Tower certainly anticipates that as much as you do, but I have seen little evidence for it, and expect none.


Theoretically, conflict should be impossible, since defeating the DO and preserving the world are always in Andors interest. However, I am not convinced you have presented a practical conflict between Andoran interests and those the Tower disingenuously claims vital to its laudably valid nominal purposes.


What personal distaste for Mat? More like his personal distaste for her, which itself thawed remarkably in ToM; as early as ACoS he reflected that Elayne had become less antagonistic toward him, and was not sure he liked it (Elayne has his number, which makes Mat uncomfortable, because he likes to fly below the radar.) As you note, her public response to Rands banners was mostly just that: For public consumption, to establish she was not his puppet. She must establish the same public view of her relationship with Tar Valon, but the only reasonable pretext so far is Merrilor, and she NEEDS to be at Merrilor (for various reasons.)


Calling prohibitions against torture "merely technical rules" rather than "moral guidelines" is somewhat semantic (at best; at worst it willfully denies the latter phrases unambiguous meaning.) Not lying is a significant moral guideline, too. So is not making weapons, or only using the Power as one in self defense (those expecting a renaissance of Power-wrought blades should realize how unlikely that is whether or not the technique becomes widely known again.) That the last one has an explicit exception for Shadowspawn ought to make their moral imperative fairly clear (hint: Not profit, though they are hardly averse to it. )


The White Tower is not purely an outside interest, because its membership does not end at Tar Valons gates (else the debate would be moot.) Further, Tar Valons chief interests (defending the world from the DO and ensuring safe responsible use of the Power) are global interests that include Andor along with everyone. Again you treat all Tower interests as "inimical to the nations or individuals involved." The scariest words in Randland (or Cannoli-Randland) are "I'm from Tar Valon and I'm here to help." Except the Tower is not physically incapable of doing anything positive for any one else, and usually does not avoid it (rather the reverse.)

If you fear Elayne putting outside interests before Andors, provide an example of her doing so, or it is a biased unsubstantiated fear. So far, your best arguments concern her second Sea Folk bargain, but that serves Andor by forging a unique relationship with what actually IS Randlands foremost (by far) multinational.


I concede the last; Siuan was too clever for her own good, and paid dearly, mainly because she has no more international diplomatic background than Egwene does (yet is her principal tutor.) But the WT is no secret society nor multinational; it is the closest thing to Randlands church outside the Whitecloaks. In that respect, it would be hard to fault Elayne, even Queen Elayne, for siding with the last defence against the Shadow instead of Andor; she could not, since the Shadows victory would moot all Andors interests along with everyones. Only conflicts over means and intermediate ends are possible, in which Elayne has at least as much discretion and latitude as any Aes Sedai (it should be clear by now the Amyrlins authority stops at TVs docks, and is limited even THAT far with sisters: Ask Siuan.))


I believe you may be projecting again.


I am familiar with the concept, but have never seen or heard it desribed that way. If that were its nature, EVERYONE with multiple interests (i.e. everyone) would always experience it, because any two interests might conceivably, at some point, some day, conflict. Conflict of interest is only possible when interests conflict; THAT is the concepts defining quality. The problem is presupposing the Towers interests always conflict with everyone elses; they clearly do not.


Again we return to a debate larger than WoT: Murandy has, not "more localized government," but de facto anarachy. Its well-earned reputation motivated Siuan to seek a strong unifier for its throne; his banditry was no deterrent simply because Murandys king must be either criminal or FOREIGN. Good grief, who is the most prominent Murandian in the series? That speaks volumes of the countrys character; calling it "localized government" is like calling a Roman orgy "slightly indecent."

Returning to the matter at hand, if the Tower advances an interest in conflict with Andors, Elayne would have a conflict of interest; she does not automatically have one in all cases by sole virtue (or vice) of being both queen and Aes Sedai. In the particular case you cite, Siuans interests conflicted, which she badly indulged by acting for the Tower to overrule Bryne in "impartially" arbitrating a dispute between Andor and Murandy, instead of recusing herself. Had she no dog in the fight, there would have been no conflict of interest. Again, your errant assumptions are 1) the Tower always has a dog in the fight that 2) always opposes all others. Had Siuans role been as Murandys representative, the Towers interests and Murandys would have been in harmony and there would have been no conflict, thus no conflict of interest.


Which is fine for your attitude toward Egwene, but your attitude toward Elayne should be independent of it. Unfortunately, though Elaynes dual roles as Queen of Andor and Aes Sedai have yet to present her with conflicting interests, they have managed to present you with one. Perhaps recusal is in order....


It is late, I am sleepy and have not re-read ToM in a week; care to refresh my memory? Elaynes comments indicate more inclination to Rands view than to Egwenes.


It was in Russias interest throughout: They fought half the inevitable war in other countries, and it precipitated a war between Germany and the Western democracies, ensuring that either 1) they would destroy each other, 2) the Allies would be badly bloodied eliminating the Nazi threat, 3) the reverse or 4) Russia would have strong allies in the inevitable war with Germany. The last scenario was the most likely and least appealing, but still more so than facing the Nazis alone, with all Poland in the enemys possession. When the dust settled, the Soviets had even "liberated" all of Eastern Europe both parties seized, plus a third of Germany.

Regardless, you will have to reacquiant me with an example of Elaynes initial support for Egwenes plan. Her initial reaction was "well, there are only three seals left, and they're crumbling." Not exactly a ringing endorsement.


I am more curious than anything, because so much of diction almost demands it. You forced me to briefly dig out ToM again just now; in the final pages, after nearly getting herself and Gawyn killed supposedly granted Egwene an epiphany on par with Rands in TGS, she reflects on her WARDERS change:

See, they are equals now; one equal has just subordinated every aspect of his being to the total fulfillment of his "partners" every whim.

Reading stuff like that, I cannot help thinking they are setting up Egwene. How is someone wholly dedicated to anothers will a partner rather than servant? In what version of English does that definition fit the former word, not the latter? Jordan and Sanderson are either laying dramatic irony on thickly, or badly need a dictionary.


1) You assume Jordan was a Libertarian; I do not believe I have met many Libertarian Masons (although, secret society; WTF knows...?) You think the WT runs better than the Hall of Servants? It is a matter of record male and female channelers have both greater power and skill linked together than separately, and not just because the links can be six times larger (though that is certainly true also.) IF channeling survives the Third Age, the Aes Sedais original yin-yang symbol will return.

2) Yeah, that has always been Logains problem: He likes Aes Sedai too much. That is, he no longer wants to slowly torture each of them to death (which you may consider an unforgivable sin. ) He recognizes their nature, with all their flaws and limitations, in part, I think, because he knows great channeling strength makes one no less human nor more infallible. He does not let "the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills" hide panicked ignorance behind apparently knowing mystery, because he knows better, and how Aes Sedai plot, scheme and ERR against each other like HS girls trying to seduce the starting QB: Just for higher stakes.

He is arrogant and proud, not necessarily ambitious; he learned surplus ambitions price the hard way. Otherwise he would confront Taim, either to supplant him or as preliminary to supplanting Rand (whom he has challenged on knowledge, but never authority.) He would not run all over Hells Half-Acre as the Dragons errand boy.


That one is slipping my mind also, though I can certainly see those accomplishments credited to Logain in the next Age so Rand can have some anonymous peace. If you mean Logain stepping over a fallen body, accepting a leading role with resignation, that is one reason I suspect he will lead a re-unified Hall of Servants: Rand brings them together as LTT truly Reborn, then exits stage left as Logain assumes his place. If Rand survives the series it is unrealistic he would walk away from Andors queen and their kids, but perhaps he will pull a Maud'dib (it has certainly been foreshadowed; he has not even gone blind yet, despite flirting with it.)


Many do, rightly or not. She is certainly a major character, and represented as one of the "good guys," but (contrary to what fans of the Protagonist with a Thousand Faces believe) expendable, not vital to the plot. If Moorcock can kill Elric at the end of that series, Jordan can certainly kill Egwene at the end of his.


Rand is an individual, not an institution. To the extent LTT is a Christ-figure, however, the Aes Sedai are his bride. Elayne may have been ignorant of Rands deal though; the timing had me thinking his was in conjunction with the Bowl rather than just for naval transport.


They can always walk away from their land to escape the new Sea Folk tyrants; Randlands serfs (to the extent they are even regarded as such) are not inextricably tied to the land like Medieval ones. To the extent it is Elaynes land, however, as part of the realm she rules or simply as part of her personal estates, she has every right to do with it as she pleases. Residents opposed have as much right to leave, but none to alter her decision.


One exclusivity guarantee is ability to negotiate Windfinder independence from the WT (another thing she can do, and largely already has, solely because Aes Sedai.) However, she has much better ones: Recall Rands agreement only applies where his authority does; at present, that is Tear and Illian plus (arguably) the cities of Bandar Eban and Maradon. Arad Doman, however, recently regained its king, Saldaea never lost its queen, and Min as much as told Rand Darlin will be king of Tear. By the end of TG the Sea Folk will have a deal with Illian—alone—if and only if Rand does not relinquish that crown to ride off into the sunset (or die, in which case primogeniture would probably join Illian to Elaynes ever growing realm, making Tear VERY uncomfortable.)

In all other lands and cases, the Sea Folks only long term bargain is with Elayne. They have no deal with Cairhien, but have one with Cairhien-Andor-Ghaeldan. That includes point-source (or nearly so) access to Bearlons iron ore, Two Rivers tabac and trade goods generally unique to Andor, easily the largest wealthiest Westlands nation now (unless we count the Seanchan conquests, but I do not believe the Sea Folk trade with them much. ) All Borderlands goods must pass through either wartorn Arad Doman and Seanchan held Tarabon, or Elaynes realm. The Sea Folk have access to Tear and Illian (for now...) plus everything between Andor does not simply absorb; everything else must come through Elayne. Most of their ships will consequently go to her realm.


Other craft can dock if they can wedge their way between every Sea Folk vessel already docked at one of the Sea Folks foremost trading ports, yes, but I would not expect that scale to be great. Most trade will be overland, through parts of Andor abutting the Sea Folks square mile, to which all taxes and tariffs apply. The Sea Folk can IMPORT anything they like by water, supplying the port itself, but nothing may enter or exit by land without seeing Andoran customs agents.

Best case, each ship bearing duty-free trade one way must be accompanied by another bearing it the other. Even that is impractical, because each will be further reduced by ships carrying the ports duty-free supplies, or else Andor will cheerfully sell them food, clothing, wood and various other essentials with an appalling tariff for things produced at a distance of one mile. Massive tariffs would still make them cheaper than if hauled across an ocean, particularly at the cost of precious space rare spices, silk, porcelain, etc. could occupy in the hold. Elayne did not casually cede a square mile of Andor for no more than half a years use of a dozen WFs. Even without tariffs, the boost to Andors economy along with the Sea Folks, and consequently fostered diplomatic relations, would remain.

The deal only appears bad if we presuppose that, then diligently seeks its detriments while resolutely ignoring all benefits. Unless Shara has VERY productive slaves, it is not "Andors NAFTA."


Federalism is not tyranny; tyranny is tyranny.


The Tower regulates the Hell out of channeling due to the War of the Power, Breaking and sparkers burning themselves out and/or killing themselves and/or others. They went too far trying to completely control channeling, but the Windfinders, Wise Ones, Seanchan, Sharans, even, to some extent, the Kin, demonstrate that control is incomplete. Elayne (and Nynaeves) orginal deal already grants WFs the right to come and go as they like at TV, with AS tutors at their beck and call almost as an exchange program. Those are huge benefits Rand cannot provide that again improve Sea Folk relations with Andor, through its queen, but cost the nation nothing. Aes Sedai humbled at their seat of power to the benefit of and at no cost to both Andor and the Sea Folk; you should be thrilled.


Nor can anyone; their backing out of Elaynes first deal does not make it a bad one for Andor. Her second deal (granting a square mile of Andor in exchange for temporary use of Windfinders) did not involve the Tower at all, only Andor, and remains valid.

Egwene was being Egwene, stating refusal to be either fool or tyrant then attempting to be both. She prated of cooperation behind wide smiles, as she met her mentors fear of steel bonds with fervent denials and plans for lace ones. She began with assurancess she would not supersede the earlier agreement then did just that (which the Three Oaths apparently allowed.) The Towers disgust with the first deal shows Elayne does not routinely sell out Andor (or anyone) for the Tower, but letting the DO fry the world would have served only his ends, and WAS what Elaynes initial deal concerned, even if later amendments included other things. It was hardly Elayne dancing on Tower strings, and if the Amyrlin squirmed loose with a better deal, Elayne has as much responsibility for that as she had control of it (i.e. none.)

Elayne could even plausibly argue that if the Sea Folks (fourth) deal (so far) with the Tower supersedes their first two with her, it does so wholly rather than partly. She will not, because hers significantly benefit Andor (bargains need not entail loss by either side; ideally, both should gain,) but she has a basis for doing so. However, it could also be argued her second bargain explicitly amended that she made for the Towers. Note: That would not (necessarily) be a conflict of interest, because the first deal did not involve Andors interests (except indirectly in ending the drought) and the second did not involve the Towers.

Also note the Tower gains nothing from Egwenes deal it is not also giving up: It gets two apprentices each from the WOs and WFs, in exchange for two Accepted TO each. In that sense, it could be called a competition between three groups who each think their own ways best, and whichever (if any) is correct will lead by example. Worrying the Tower will seduce all impressionable unfettered WF apprentices is like worrying the WFs will seduce all impressionable young WO apprentices who like swimming: Three millennia of cultural conditioning will not be undone in a year or two of apprenticeship, but much will be learned. After a year and a half in Norway, I assure you I still prefer football to soccer, but my Norwegian is much better (if still not great.)


Sylvaese is probably not the best example, since many people thought she was Lanfear until Sanderson denied it outright, and the smart money is still on her being a Darkfriend (like seemingly all her retainers) or under heavy Compulsion. It is a relevant consideration though, simply because the distinctive "customs and practices" of the nobles in question are primarily disloyalty or active treason. If those are your standards for nobles, Elayne will hopefully never "measure up."

Otherwise, a Medieval-Renaissance noble is pretty much the same from Tear to Saldaea, though they seem to get a little more "French nobility is a contradiction in terms" as we go west. Most Cairhienin likely care little which noble abuses them 364 days of the year and molests them on the Feast of Lights.


That is it. As an added bonus, the local peasants who have no sense of loyalty toward their new foreign lord still retain all the same loyalty to their monarch, making them unlikely traitors but ideal informants ON traitors. In both realms, but most effecitively in Cairhien, the nobles most likely to stir dissent against the new monarch as an interloping child upsetting "the old ways" have been replaced with others just as much interlopers themselves. It is a time honored trick; shake the barrel and most apples either stick to the sides or fall to the bottom, and hopefully the rotten ones are tossed.


Legally, most nobles in question are traitors or competitors for the throne (often both.) Many were surely relieved to find themselves simply owning different estates in different countries rather than meeting an appointment with the headsman. The legitimacy of Elaynes act relies heavily on the nobles involved agreeing, but much of THAT is their knowledge it is far better than they deserve. There is little legal basis to challenge altered grants of nobility whose recipients are mostly traitors eagerly accepting the decision as by far the most desirable. Who is the plaintiff in that case, the commoners whose lords abandoned them?


There I must fall back on the same argument, however tired: The traditional principle in dealing with traitors is eradication for state and public security, usually applied through a show trial and summary execution. It is hardly tyranny Elayne opted to instead transfer the guilty nobles to the estates of similarly inclined nobles in a different country. If the penalty for treason is four summer villas with vineyards, orchards and thoroughbred horses, its consequences have been badly maligned.


True, but somewhat semantic; call it two nations within a single state, if you like. The two are not so different on the borders; animosity there is more due to age-old border conflicts than fundamental or insurmountable differences. Elsewhere, it is more like NY vs. CA than Japan vs. Brazil. But OK, sure, Dual-Monarchy, once again; Elayne is that monarch in both cases, and if she chooses to transfer estates between two of the nations she rules, she is within her rights, particularly since, in most cases, she would be within her rights to do with them as Rand did with Colavere.


That is because you want to live in Murandy. It is, however, a question of taste and policy rather than legality or morality.


Oh ho; look who suddenly likes social contracts (who are you and what have you done with Cannoli, commie?! ) I am not sure Randland is quite ready for Hobbes and Locke; Perrin would hardly be the first monarch to carve a new kingdom from an existing one when no one was looking. Much of Randland is still no mans land because there is no one around to be governed, let alone govern.

From statute, however, the Two Rivers is indisputably Andoran, and Elayne correct that raising Manetherens flag is technically insurrection. Min was certainly quick to inform the yokels Morgase was their queen, and any of their other Baerlon neighbors (who pay regular taxes to the crown) would surely have done the same. Maybe Elayne can give Perrin and Faile estates in Cairhien and replace them with some noble from Ghaeldan. Anyone with a big enough army simply declaring themselves lord anywhere sufficiently remote where the people accept them, even within an existing state... like I said: Not quite ready for Hobbes and Locke. Thus Elaynes royal authority over the Two Rivers is unassailable.

Realistically, Perrin only (barely) repulsed the Trolloc "invasion" (with significant AS AND WC help) because he faced a few thousand foes specifically seeking his head (i.e. the threats sole basis was their "protectors" very existence.) Possessing nothing more valuable than wool and tabacc, and only a few thousand residents, they never attracted acquisitive eyes. If they did, either the Queens Guard would defend them or Perrin and his ragged retinue of bowmen would be ground under the bloody hooves of vastly greater and better organized professional soldiers with far superior equipment.

The Two Rivers' industrious refugees and greater global prominence require more defence than a single lord limited to local resources. Had Elayne just let them go, they would probably end up a Saldaean province. I suspect that was Failes plan, and that Elayne knows it, making her far more magnanimous than I would be.


Andor did not declare its independence on the basis of surviving a single attack thanks to substantial outside aid from two antagonist groups (one of which was only there to slaughter their beloved lord in the first place.) Not to mention that the Empress claiming the Westlands by right of descent from Luthair and Hawkwing is about as plausible as Aragorn claiming Gondor on the basis of descent from Isildur and Elendil: Luthair/Isildur was never their monarch, so while the claim may be nominally valid with the extinction of that monarchs line, the claimant better be able to back it practically by force of arms (which the Seanchan are doing quite well, actually.) Elayne could assuredly do the same with the Queens Guard, but it would be harmful to both sides at a time neither can afford it.

The bottom line is, by law, Elayne remains the Two Rivers' rightful monarch until/unless she relinquishes it. Even conquest would only gain de facto rather than de jure authority, but Perrin could never hold it against Gawyn or Birgitte leading the Andoran army. This was not a case of Elayne talking them into staying, but of talking them out of forcing her to put their heads on pikes and march on what are still very much her subjects, whether or not anyone has long been aware of the fact.


Again you argue from social contracts, which Randland grants only rudimentary, often only nominal, recognition, if any. It is exactly the opposite of her insistence Rand could not "give" her mothers throne, completely consistent with it: He could not give the rightful heir a throne not legally his to give any more than Perrin can deny the rightful monarch part of a realm legally hers. By force, sure, but not by law, because neither Perrin nor Rand had legal standing as anything more than commoners. Rand could at least claim to be settling the succession dispute, since Elaynes succession was not automatic, but in Perrins case it is cut and dried: Unless he initiaties and wins a true revolt against Elayne, she is the Two Rivers' (and his) lawful sovereign.

Perrin does not even have the right of conquest, because he did not conquer anything; he DEFENDED part of Andor from one attack by a comparatively small band of Trollocs and Myrddraal. Had he faced what is currently attacking just the city of Caemlyn they would not have found enough to bury, so this is not a case of the Two Rivers establishing their self-sufficiency and local security by force of arms. It is also not a case of defending his rule from the Aes Sedai his lawful sovereign (and her army,) a confrontation where I am not sure even being ta'veren would bring him victory. If Perrin has the sense it takes to be an effective noble, he will recognize that and welcome the greater military resources the rest of Andor, under its queen, provide at need. Note: I said, "if...."


One plays the cards dealt, but this is why commoner reaction to replacing some treacherous abusive nobles with other treacherous abusive nobles worries me little: Unless you are the lead dog, the view never changes. Though, to be fair, in the ACoS encounter, Rand was the one so imperious it made Min and Caraline wince at his challenge to Darlins position, which Darlin took in stride. His entourage were the ones outraged (i.e. the other nobles you lament WALKING a few miles for the first time in their lives while Rand and Min commandeered their mounts, instead of riding Rand down for his impertinence as they wanted.)


Preaching to the choir, but then, I have no objection to watching leggy blondes bathe....


Maybe not Nynaeve so much; we do not know much about her family except that she had none beyond age fourteen, thereafter apprenticed to a Wisdom whose duties she assumed a couple years later. Not much coddling there. Now, the daughter of the towns mayor and only innkeeper/clockowner....

Commoners and Novices/Accepted who dislike her accuse Elayne of being spoiled often enough, and it fits the simple monolithic view of "fairy tale princess" well enough the image stuck with many readers, but it is not really accurate. Her life was sheltered in some ways, because Morgase did not want the Daughter-Heir killed (but ironically sparked a succession war anyway thanks to Compulsion) yet Elayne has demonstrated both will and skill for getting her hands dirty.


She has also had to do a fair amount of improvising, but I still think she has done it quite well, both ethically and practically. I do not see her expanding or abusing power, only employing it in legitimate ways and, in the Two Rivers, reasserting it after long dormancy. Power is not inherently bad; it is vital and often quite positive, depending on its use. All power is abusable, but the possibility remains inadequate cause to abolish all power—particularly on Armageddons eve.