He might not literally kneel before the ter'angreal, but almost certainly must meet with Tuon soon. - Edit 5
Before modification by Joel at 25/05/2012 03:52:37 AM
Thus, if he does not join Mat in Ebou Dar, Mat is all but guaranteed to arrange their meeting very soon after that.
Actually, we don't know this, as we never got the actual wording of that verse.
Fair enough; at this point, it is still just hearsay. It is, however, multiple instances of hearsay, all conveying the same essential meaning.
Has it actually been confirmed that Ishy corrupted the Seanchan prophecies, or is that simply the conclusion most people have drawn? There are MANY ways he could have brought back the Seanchan, particularly given that Semirhage had the leader of the Forerunners (and who knows whom else) firmly under her thumb. If she can slaughter the entire imperial household in a day, Ishy can orchestrate the Seanchan invasion without the need to act indirectly by tediously and minutely warping their prophecies of the Dragon over a few decades every century for a millennium.
Why is that one "more reliable"? Where is it written that Ishy badly corrupted the Seanchan prophecies but left those in the Westlands untouched? Bearing in mind that it was at Hawkwings court WEST of the Aryth where he is generally understood to have been chief counselor. In any event, kneeling to the Crystal Throne and binding the Nine Moons to him are not mutually exclusive; if anything, quite the opposite, as an allegiance to the Empress would unquestionably be a bond. The prophecy we have is not clear whom, if anyone, will be on the controlling end of that bond, but does explicitly state it will exist.
Fun thought: Rand knows all too well people can be involuntarily Bonded; what if the prophecy means THAT? Tuon would likely be more manageable (Bonding does not automatically dominate channelers, yet the PoVs of Rand/Alanna and Logain/Toviene suggest strength may be decisive,) but Mat far less so....
Your point is valid, and I did not miss the fact that what we know of that line remains vague and secondhand, despite repeated references. The Wolf King prophecy provided a direct quote unambiguously fulfilled; Seanchan prophecies of Rand himself are frequently cited, yet never directly, which can only be deliberate.
Also true; different people define "loss" differently. Tuon, and many Seanchan, clearly feel the Dragon must fight the Last Battle at the Empress' direction and on her behalf. It is very plausible that she sees her role much as Elaida saw hers: Indispensable minder of the powerful rabid dog who must defeat the DO, but would quickly destroy the world unrestrained, or if not afterward murdered mercifully but immediately. The empires adam foundation and general view of channelers as dangerously powerful creatures "who MUST be leashed" by the Empress only encourage that view. Plausible as that would be to Tuon, it is probably not Jordans intent.
If it even contains that verse; correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe we know if it was recorded before or after Luthair departed the Westlands.
I very much concur with your expectation, though less that the prophecy heralds it (quite plausible though.) That is one reason I do not expect Egwene to survive TG, or at least not lead the WT: I do not believe her suited to lead a "co-ed" WT (or perhaps "Gray Tower.") All the Bonded Aes Sedai in his wake, and in particular the two he personally Bonded, make Logain a far better choice, IMHO. He is far more familiar with the White Towers operations, personnel and obligations than is any other Ashaman (probably including Rand,) just as he is far more familiar with the saidin and the BTs workings than Egwene or any woman is.
The biggest counter-argument, of course, is Rand ceding Egwene political leadership, but, frankly, I do not see it. Even with Siuans crash course (and her ham fisted diplomacy hardly makes her the best tutor) Ewene does not have the training or disposition. Elayne and Tuon, of course, almost literally imbibed both with their mothers' milk, and it is Elayne Rand has made many efforts to establish as the political authority in two nations (Avis Rhuidean visions support this view, too, albeit dubiously.) She and Tuon make far better choices, with one leading the "free" Westlands and the other the Seanchan and their conquered territories—but ONLY if Rand establishes some working relationship with Tuon.
It is difficult to imagine the Empress (may she live forever) accepting such a relationship as anything less than the superior partner. Rands apparent and growing disregard for political power as anything save means to an end might make that tenable even without a ter'angreals inducement: Tuon handles civil administration and the nightmarish logistics of mobilizing and supporting the armies of two continents, having demonstrated ample skill with both; Rand handles the DO as field marshall.
Tarmon Gaidon began no later than the Battle of Maradon, ironically indicated by Ituraldes declining to state what he intended as hyperbole, once he realized it was no more than obvious fact. I doubt Tuons empire is truly lost; it is certainly in disarray, but the contending factions could prove easy meat for an Empress they all believe dead with her kin. With the Westlands aware of them, its rulers (particularly those on good close terms with her husband-general) might assist the devil they know rather than take their chances with the one they do not (it certainly would not hurt to have the Empress owe them each a favor; she almost certainly would not see it that way, but they would expect her to do so.)
Mat, of course, simply will not stand for women collared for life all around him; FAR too much of his plotline has been devoted to rescuing channelers from adam for that to be remotely plausible. Again, it would be like William Lloyd Garrison moving into the Confederate White House. In Martins universe, where a man who prides himself on incorruptible honor can sacrifice it in an instant for a deal he knows will be broken, that might be "realistic," but not in Randland.
Well, what is the alternative? That the Seanchan, along with the half of the Westlands they conquered, sit out TG? Rand has done everything he can think of to prevent that eventuality, for obvious reasons: (1) He needs them and 2) if the world managed to survive it, the undamaged Seanchan would then ride roughshod over the shattered Westlands. One way or the other, the Seanchan will ride to TG with the Dragon Reborn, either in front of, behind or alongside him. That does not require Tuon be present at Merrilor (again, the blurbs wording suggests it is more likely Rand, Mat et al. will meet and conclude an agreement with Tuon at Ebou Dar either before or after Merrilor,) but does require some kind of arrangement between Rand and Tuon.
Sheer numbers, brute force and outright brutality will do that. Even without the hordes of Trollocs and Myrddraal, a significant portion of surviving Aes Sedai are BA, and Rands plan to recruit and field an army of male channelers loyal to the Light is backfiring spectacularly thanks to Taim.
Nonetheless, Snoopy is tying things together, and do not forget Jordan intended TGS-AMoL to be a single final volume. According to that blueprint, the Seanchan remained at odds with Rand and the Westlands nations not under their heel well over half-way into the last book; how much longer can that reasonably continue? How logical is Mat (or any of the main characters) meeting the Empress in book 14 and NOT returning with a Lacquer Cotta army at their back. It is very possible that the speculated Seanchan attack on the BT will divert to a liberation of Caemlyn, coinciding with Logain and Rand putting paid to Taims account. With the Reds mission to the BT, Merrilor is almost incidental to what is converging on Caemlyn.
Sidebar: What kind of fighting soldier wears LACQUERED armor? With all Jordans sneers at parade ground swords, he has an elite military in gear fabricated by armorers who double as cosmetologists?!
Sure, samurai had some rather ornate armor, as did Medieval knights—for CEREMONIAL use; in combat, I believe they typically wore plain unadorned leather. That shiny lacquer would last as long in a real fight as would gold filigree on a suit of plate: Not past the first solid blow.
Anyway, the threads of the Pattern are coming together rapidly now, and that includes the Seanchans continent and a half. Jordan said outright there would be many loose ends after the Last Battle, that he would not provide a trite "and they all lived happily ever after" ending because that is unrealistic. Still, he, and Sanderson after him, have clearly been building toward some degree of conciliation with the Seanchan critical to Tarmon Gaidon. He has likewise been building toward a radical and fundamental change in Seanchan channeler policy, largely instigated by Mat, and unless he intends channeling to end with the Third Age (a real possibility,) Tuon likely has some squirming to do over that AND Rand as the series concludes.
None of that means Rand must kneel to the Crystal Throne in any but the loosest sense, but all of it strongly suggests he will join Mat in Ebou Dar.
Again, according to the Seanchan prophecies, the Last Battle CANNOT occur until Rand kneels before the Crystal Throne.
Actually, we don't know this, as we never got the actual wording of that verse.
Fair enough; at this point, it is still just hearsay. It is, however, multiple instances of hearsay, all conveying the same essential meaning.
It's also confirmed there are corruptions in the Seanchan Prophecies. That verse was always very suspicious as its the foundation of a conflict between the Westlands/WT and the Seanchan, and the justification of the Return. It's central to the Seanchan - it's what they mention to point out the corruption of the western KC. Yet, falsely or not, Ishamael claimed once it was his doing that brought back the Seanchan...
Has it actually been confirmed that Ishy corrupted the Seanchan prophecies, or is that simply the conclusion most people have drawn? There are MANY ways he could have brought back the Seanchan, particularly given that Semirhage had the leader of the Forerunners (and who knows whom else) firmly under her thumb. If she can slaughter the entire imperial household in a day, Ishy can orchestrate the Seanchan invasion without the need to act indirectly by tediously and minutely warping their prophecies of the Dragon over a few decades every century for a millennium.
The more reliable prophecy we have is that "He will bind the Nine Moons to him". "He" most likely referring to the Dragon, though we can't be sure without the complete prophecy.
Why is that one "more reliable"? Where is it written that Ishy badly corrupted the Seanchan prophecies but left those in the Westlands untouched? Bearing in mind that it was at Hawkwings court WEST of the Aryth where he is generally understood to have been chief counselor. In any event, kneeling to the Crystal Throne and binding the Nine Moons to him are not mutually exclusive; if anything, quite the opposite, as an allegiance to the Empress would unquestionably be a bond. The prophecy we have is not clear whom, if anyone, will be on the controlling end of that bond, but does explicitly state it will exist.
Fun thought: Rand knows all too well people can be involuntarily Bonded; what if the prophecy means THAT? Tuon would likely be more manageable (Bonding does not automatically dominate channelers, yet the PoVs of Rand/Alanna and Logain/Toviene suggest strength may be decisive,) but Mat far less so....
For the other one from Seanchan, we've got different interpretations/wordings by various Seanchan. Some have said the Westland prophecies can't be right, because they do not mention the Dragon serving the Crystal Throne. Is this close to the actual wording or not? Does it specifically mention serving or kneeling - or something else that gets interpreted this way?
Your point is valid, and I did not miss the fact that what we know of that line remains vague and secondhand, despite repeated references. The Wolf King prophecy provided a direct quote unambiguously fulfilled; Seanchan prophecies of Rand himself are frequently cited, yet never directly, which can only be deliberate.
The imperial authorities of course worded it differently as the Dragon having to kneel to the CT. How reliable is it, when for people like the Empress you can only serve her by kneeling to her authority? There are many ways to serve, just not in the Empress's worldview, just like there's no way to serve the Seanchan people without serving their Empress like every last Seanchan (technically, even the Empress serves the Crystal Throne... she does it by being Empress, but still serves).
Tuon said Rand had to kneel before the LB, or all was lost. So that prophecy has an "or else" clause of some kind, confirming we don't have the full thing, nor perhaps something close to the actual words. how close was this to the actual wording? What's lost? The LB for everyone? The Seanchan attempt to reconquer the Westlands? The Seanchan Empire itself? We don't know.
Tuon said Rand had to kneel before the LB, or all was lost. So that prophecy has an "or else" clause of some kind, confirming we don't have the full thing, nor perhaps something close to the actual words. how close was this to the actual wording? What's lost? The LB for everyone? The Seanchan attempt to reconquer the Westlands? The Seanchan Empire itself? We don't know.
Also true; different people define "loss" differently. Tuon, and many Seanchan, clearly feel the Dragon must fight the Last Battle at the Empress' direction and on her behalf. It is very plausible that she sees her role much as Elaida saw hers: Indispensable minder of the powerful rabid dog who must defeat the DO, but would quickly destroy the world unrestrained, or if not afterward murdered mercifully but immediately. The empires adam foundation and general view of channelers as dangerously powerful creatures "who MUST be leashed" by the Empress only encourage that view. Plausible as that would be to Tuon, it is probably not Jordans intent.
We also can surmised how the Seanchan interpret the KC verse "The Unstained Tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign"... Hawking's sigil... It's very easy to misinterpret things...
If it even contains that verse; correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe we know if it was recorded before or after Luthair departed the Westlands.
From the Westlands's perspective, there wasn't much kneeling of the White Tower organization involved... a few AS swearing fealty to Rand. Was this really the fullfilment of that verse (I still doubt it... I think this verse may herald the end of the White Tower of the third age, as all channellers unite behind the sign of the Aes Sedai Guild).
I very much concur with your expectation, though less that the prophecy heralds it (quite plausible though.) That is one reason I do not expect Egwene to survive TG, or at least not lead the WT: I do not believe her suited to lead a "co-ed" WT (or perhaps "Gray Tower.") All the Bonded Aes Sedai in his wake, and in particular the two he personally Bonded, make Logain a far better choice, IMHO. He is far more familiar with the White Towers operations, personnel and obligations than is any other Ashaman (probably including Rand,) just as he is far more familiar with the saidin and the BTs workings than Egwene or any woman is.
The biggest counter-argument, of course, is Rand ceding Egwene political leadership, but, frankly, I do not see it. Even with Siuans crash course (and her ham fisted diplomacy hardly makes her the best tutor) Ewene does not have the training or disposition. Elayne and Tuon, of course, almost literally imbibed both with their mothers' milk, and it is Elayne Rand has made many efforts to establish as the political authority in two nations (Avis Rhuidean visions support this view, too, albeit dubiously.) She and Tuon make far better choices, with one leading the "free" Westlands and the other the Seanchan and their conquered territories—but ONLY if Rand establishes some working relationship with Tuon.
It is difficult to imagine the Empress (may she live forever) accepting such a relationship as anything less than the superior partner. Rands apparent and growing disregard for political power as anything save means to an end might make that tenable even without a ter'angreals inducement: Tuon handles civil administration and the nightmarish logistics of mobilizing and supporting the armies of two continents, having demonstrated ample skill with both; Rand handles the DO as field marshall.
Tuon has not for now managed to get Rand to kneel or serve her and the LB is beginning in Caemlyn. Her empire back home is already lost, the sul'dam problem is a damocles sword on Tuon's head and on her forces. We can't be sure the verse predicts global doom at the hands of the Shadow...
Tarmon Gaidon began no later than the Battle of Maradon, ironically indicated by Ituraldes declining to state what he intended as hyperbole, once he realized it was no more than obvious fact. I doubt Tuons empire is truly lost; it is certainly in disarray, but the contending factions could prove easy meat for an Empress they all believe dead with her kin. With the Westlands aware of them, its rulers (particularly those on good close terms with her husband-general) might assist the devil they know rather than take their chances with the one they do not (it certainly would not hurt to have the Empress owe them each a favor; she almost certainly would not see it that way, but they would expect her to do so.)
Mat, of course, simply will not stand for women collared for life all around him; FAR too much of his plotline has been devoted to rescuing channelers from adam for that to be remotely plausible. Again, it would be like William Lloyd Garrison moving into the Confederate White House. In Martins universe, where a man who prides himself on incorruptible honor can sacrifice it in an instant for a deal he knows will be broken, that might be "realistic," but not in Randland.
There's no intepretation by the characters that Rand must serve or kneel, otherwise the LB can't start. It's wasn't an intepretation of the verse, it was just Tuon saying "failure isn't an option". There's still a very small chance Mat manages to bring Tuon to Merrilor, but it's really slim. She's in no mood to hear reason atm, after setbacks she just made a huge progress by gaining Travelling.
Well, what is the alternative? That the Seanchan, along with the half of the Westlands they conquered, sit out TG? Rand has done everything he can think of to prevent that eventuality, for obvious reasons: (1) He needs them and 2) if the world managed to survive it, the undamaged Seanchan would then ride roughshod over the shattered Westlands. One way or the other, the Seanchan will ride to TG with the Dragon Reborn, either in front of, behind or alongside him. That does not require Tuon be present at Merrilor (again, the blurbs wording suggests it is more likely Rand, Mat et al. will meet and conclude an agreement with Tuon at Ebou Dar either before or after Merrilor,) but does require some kind of arrangement between Rand and Tuon.
I doubt RJ built the Seanchan-Westlands conflict with such depth only to solve it almost miraculously on the day the LB starts. He wanted a conflict within the Light to last some way into the LB itself. That will help justify giving the Shadow a series of early victory.
Sheer numbers, brute force and outright brutality will do that. Even without the hordes of Trollocs and Myrddraal, a significant portion of surviving Aes Sedai are BA, and Rands plan to recruit and field an army of male channelers loyal to the Light is backfiring spectacularly thanks to Taim.
Nonetheless, Snoopy is tying things together, and do not forget Jordan intended TGS-AMoL to be a single final volume. According to that blueprint, the Seanchan remained at odds with Rand and the Westlands nations not under their heel well over half-way into the last book; how much longer can that reasonably continue? How logical is Mat (or any of the main characters) meeting the Empress in book 14 and NOT returning with a Lacquer Cotta army at their back. It is very possible that the speculated Seanchan attack on the BT will divert to a liberation of Caemlyn, coinciding with Logain and Rand putting paid to Taims account. With the Reds mission to the BT, Merrilor is almost incidental to what is converging on Caemlyn.
Sidebar: What kind of fighting soldier wears LACQUERED armor? With all Jordans sneers at parade ground swords, he has an elite military in gear fabricated by armorers who double as cosmetologists?!
Sure, samurai had some rather ornate armor, as did Medieval knights—for CEREMONIAL use; in combat, I believe they typically wore plain unadorned leather. That shiny lacquer would last as long in a real fight as would gold filigree on a suit of plate: Not past the first solid blow.Anyway, the threads of the Pattern are coming together rapidly now, and that includes the Seanchans continent and a half. Jordan said outright there would be many loose ends after the Last Battle, that he would not provide a trite "and they all lived happily ever after" ending because that is unrealistic. Still, he, and Sanderson after him, have clearly been building toward some degree of conciliation with the Seanchan critical to Tarmon Gaidon. He has likewise been building toward a radical and fundamental change in Seanchan channeler policy, largely instigated by Mat, and unless he intends channeling to end with the Third Age (a real possibility,) Tuon likely has some squirming to do over that AND Rand as the series concludes.
None of that means Rand must kneel to the Crystal Throne in any but the loosest sense, but all of it strongly suggests he will join Mat in Ebou Dar.