Active Users:801 Time:23/12/2024 07:33:18 AM
I think you may understimate the diversity of Darkfriends. Joel Send a noteboard - 21/05/2012 07:09:56 PM
I'm almost 100% sure she's a darkfriend


Verin made an interesting comment about her when she was working on figuring Cadsuane's allegences out before she left Rand and Company in Tear. And there is the question of who told Semirhage/Shadar Haran/Elza about the wards on Cadsuane's box ... It's been debated on a few sites!


Shaidar Haran didn't need anyone to tell him there was a ward on the box. He's a Myrrdraal. Remember how Moiraine used to warn that most of her wards but the one meant to forewarn about Shadowspawn would attract the Fades. For the same reason, Shaidar Haran didn't need anyone to tell him where to look for what Cadsuane had hidden.

Not that Sorilea can't be a darkfriend (there's nothing very obvious to suggest she is, though), but the whole "there needs to be someone who warned SH about the ward" angle doesn't hold water as evidence.

There may be something to the fact it happened when Cadsuane was meeting the WO, but this too can be totally circumstancial considering Elza could easily have been keeping watch to spot when Cadsune left the building. It also doesn't point to Sorilea in particular, and Sorilea gave Cadsuane the key advice about Rand's psychology that made her find the right approach to be accepted at Rand's side. She also kept working with Cadsuane after she was cast out, further dismissing the possibility Sorilea wanted Cadsuane out of the way.

The idea that Sorilea's real aim in Cairhien was to give Cadsuane Traveling so she'd use Alana to find Rand and thus place Verin and Elza as spies near him is the most interesting bit, but sounds a bit far fetched, when you consider the Forsaken already knew quite well Rand was in Far Madding and it's not Elza/Verin who could help there. Beside, there's zero evidence Elza and Verin got any orders from a Forsaken concerning the Cleansing (to stop him or kill him), so it looks very unlikely the Shadow knew they had joined Rand by then. It's at the manor there were signs Elza received orders, as she was starting to plot about killing people and this may have been because she knew a Forsaken got involved (She seemed to act from her Compulsion, so it may be Verin herself she now thought a threat to Rand! It's supported by the fact Elza put no such plan in motion, and Verin's the one wo left at the time). This is coherent with the fact it's not long after Verin decided to escape, right after the Shadow's attack. Could be the signs of TG that convinced her it was time, could be her fear she could receive orders soon she couldn't obey, or a mix of both.

The plan of Cadsuane with Amys and Sorilea was hardly a bad plan. At the time Cadsuane presented it, nothing had happened yet to make think it might backfire badly. They just all failed to see how much Rand changed after the episode with Semirhage. Rand was just too far gone in his insanity/paranoia to react as they hoped he would.

The big mistake in all of this was not to understand their only slim hope to make it work was to let Nynaeve handle everything, including Tam - and that mistake is to lay at Cadsuane's feet, as she underestimated badly Nynaeve's maturity and experience as Wisdom.

Rand was too far gone for it to have had much success, what the Pattern needed was a huge shock, and Cadsuane, Sorilea and even Nynaeve were caught in Rand's ta'veren web. The whole storyline is a string of missed signs, small mistakes - all leading to the chain reaction the Wheel needed to provoke the moment of Epiphany. There's nothing there to suggest any manipulation of Cadsuane.

The whole process by which the WO are chosen, and their training, makes it rather unlikely one of them would embrace the Shadow. They would basically need to be delusional (rejecting all they see at Rhuidean) or genocidal (hating the Aiel so much they want to destroy them). Another factor is the communal role of the WO which is so strong, so dedicated to social service. The WO are trained to be selfless, Aviendha's whole storyline was about giving up what she liked to understand her role in life was to serve her people, that her Ability her sept needed. That's not exactly a crucible to form DF, who are egoistic, individualistic/concerned all the time with their interests.
It's only among one clan, the Shaido, that a culture of denial developped among its corrupted WO, and it's seriously suggested that it all originates from the clan losing gender balance, with weak and too influencable clan and sept chiefs, unable to be the necessary match to their roofmistresses and WO, which Sevanna used to gain power. The Shaido leaders tried to establish a full matriarchy, those whose role is to be concerned with the management of the septs, and matters of ethics and balance and inter-clan diplomacy, seized control of the warriors as well, and that became an explosive combo. The only Aiel DF we've seen so far was a Maiden. A Shaido Maiden, from Sevana's sept (see a pattern here?)

It would be hard for WO to exist as DF, unless a whole secret group of them emerged. They are mostly concerned with their sept, and then less in clan business (the septs are pretty far apart), and more rarely they have to interfere in inter-clan matters. The WO deal mostly with other WO and roofmistresses. It's much easier for groups of DF to form within septs or societies, and of the two, it's in septs it's most likely nest of DF might emerge (Aiel are unforgiving to DF, spreading those beliefs to fellow society brothers/sisters from other septs/clans would be extremely risky business). So far, we know of one very corrupted sept among the Aiel, which had both a corrupted power-blind leader and one DF, and it's the Jumai Shaido (I was about to say, look in that sept for more, but in truth the only living Jumai we still have is Sevanna herself. They may have had DF WO, but we don't know any Jumai Shaido WO).

The group with Amys, Bair, Sorilea, Melaine have always worked hard and with determination. It's largely thanks to their efforts the clan chiefs have not rebelled against Rand in the Arad Doman fiasco. There's no evidence one of these WO tried to worsen the gap forming between Rand and the Chiefs (which a DF would have done). Melaine is shown as a bit more refractory to changes, but the others make her come to terms. Bair has made a mistake or two, but nothing her culture can't explain (like worrying more about keeping the clans together after Rand was kidnapped, but overlooking that Colavaere taking the throne may be something to worry about). After the LOC kidnapping, they all worked hard to patch things up, again with no evidence one of them tried to use as a wedge to divide the clans. It appears if there's DF among the Aiel leaders near Rand, they're at the periphery of the core WO (the most "difficult" CC about Rand have WO who have played very small roles so far), or perhaps one of the clan chiefs (so far it's always been the chiefs grumbling at time, in Cairhien like in AD, and the WO tying to patch things up. For the WO, in the last books, I'd rather start looking among those the most deadset against the Seanchan as we know it's one of Moridin's goal to keep Tuon and Rand apart, but so far the two very angry are Aviendha and Amys! The Maiden who told Aviendha and Amys the Seanchan were flaunting their Shaido captives - which could be a plot of Graendal as she had to keep Rand from a Seanchan agreement and we've seen no real evidence of efforts there, was Coranna, who is a background character seen only once in ACOS. The reactions of the WO when Aviendha returns may hold be the real clues.

I referenced Ingtar below: His fanatical devotion to his people, country and cause MADE him a Darkfriend. An empty promise to prevent He Who Comes with the Dawn breaking and remaking the Aiel, preserving only a remnant (or their total destruction if they failed to follow him, a real possibility until Cairhiens liberation) could be quite a hook with them, ESPECIALLY with chiefs and WOs. The slaughter of all barely human Wetlanders (particularly sub-human Treekillers,) would be no more deterrent than the Shadows plans for the Southerners Ingtar resentfully defended.

I know they often seem like the Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight, but it would not be realistic for ALL Darkfriends to be completely selfish idiots or the naïve unfortunates playing at being naughty Fain met. People like that make great cannon fodder, but are useless for anything else; seducing the great and powerful who pay the greatest dividends would require an appropriate lever. Even the strongest and noblest usually have an effective lever if one knows how to find it, and doing just that is very much evils modus operandi.

With both those points in mind, while "It would be hard for WO to exist as DF, unless a whole secret group of them emerged," the same is true of Aes Sedia, yet the Black Ajah has existed longer than the Tower that has always denied that fact. The Shadow would be every bit as eager to place Darkfriends in critical leadership postions among the Aiel as it was in the Westlands and Seanchan. That would naturally include the Shaido, and the Jumai sept (though I recall no indication Sevanna nor any of her cohorts were Darkfriends, only more generic petty examples of malice,) but would no more be restricted to them than possessing Mili Skane made Sheriam and Alviarin undesirable. The whole point of Darkfriends is that their presence is pervasive and ubiquitous, especially at high levels of power, not confined to societys relatively impotent gutter fringe.

As for the Sorilea/Darkfriend/Domination Band connection, someone had to inform the Shadow Cadsuane had it in the first place, ward or no ward. The list of people to whom she entrusted that information, let alone its precise location, is VERY short; basically two people. Consequently, it is reasonable (though far from certain) that one or both of those two is a Darkfriend. Sorilea makes a slightly better candidate than Bair because 1) she has significantly more prestige and influence and 2) unlike Bair, she can channel (if only just) and could thus be turned to the Shadow even if she did not give her allegiance willingly.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
AMOL discussion : Cadsuane, the Aiel, Perrin - 08/05/2012 09:47:52 AM 3559 Views
Cadsuane *NM* - 08/05/2012 09:48:07 AM 547 Views
Cadsuane died in Knife of Dreams *NM* - 08/05/2012 10:43:12 AM 610 Views
Natural causes - 11/05/2012 09:45:33 PM 911 Views
Sorilea's going to shank Cadsuane - 13/05/2012 06:38:29 AM 1102 Views
Very possible - 18/05/2012 08:37:03 PM 884 Views
Re: Very possible - 18/05/2012 11:02:20 PM 987 Views
I think you may understimate the diversity of Darkfriends. - 21/05/2012 07:09:56 PM 914 Views
And I think you should fact check. - 01/07/2012 01:25:43 PM 826 Views
You are right, of course; I had forgotten that. - 02/07/2012 03:13:07 PM 768 Views
the Aiel *NM* - 08/05/2012 09:48:18 AM 407 Views
Re: the Aiel are absorbed into the tinkers and learn to sing songs. - 10/05/2012 10:51:58 PM 861 Views
I don't quite see that happening. - 02/06/2012 02:43:13 AM 726 Views
Perrin *NM* - 08/05/2012 09:48:30 AM 489 Views
I hope he dies in the Prologue - 08/05/2012 10:42:05 AM 1016 Views
Perrin is awsome - 12/05/2012 02:01:34 PM 789 Views
I never said he was dull. He annoys the crap out of me with his whining *NM* - 12/05/2012 05:43:28 PM 353 Views
he's done whining now but yea it was gettin old - 12/05/2012 11:34:42 PM 696 Views
I was just very irritated when in book 11... - 14/05/2012 03:24:55 AM 867 Views
Perrin has always been one of my favorites... - 02/06/2012 02:41:37 AM 844 Views
Is it too late to trade him for Hopper and/or Rolan? - 21/05/2012 05:32:23 PM 761 Views
I think he already saved Rand the 2nd time - 21/05/2012 11:21:46 PM 962 Views
Perrin's death would be a huge tragedy - 26/06/2012 09:19:34 PM 823 Views

Reply to Message