I will have to take your word on the special effects.
Joel Send a noteboard - 21/05/2012 08:05:46 AM
You clearly know far better than I.
The One Power is nothing. ¨People obsess with that, but it's really all basic stuff nowadays. CGI would take care of nearly everything and is far less less expensive that some of the techniques you brought up (and I kind of know this, digital VFX is what I do for a living... TV shows try to avoid SFX on set as much as possible, because the techniques aren't always that expensive in themselves, but most take a great deal of time and slow down filming a lot, and that makes them very expensive to use.).
What's very expensive for TV are stuff like CG set expansions, very involved motion tracking, creatures, particle effects. They're very clever how they do it on GoT (which is a big budget show). Nothing's gratuitous and people most often won't notice they found a way to make an impressive shot 10x less expensive by not moving the camera, as would rather have been done in a feature film. Or they'll give us a few very expensive shots, and most of the rest will be cut-saving ones, by clever framing. They can pull it off, notably, because they skip VFX scenes with tons of extras that would require tons of angles in one scene.
But even then, the kind of budget they have on GOT is not really thinkable for a 22 ep/season show.
And forget scenes like Dumai's Wells and such, that's totally unthinkable without SW/LOTR-level of budget. Those crowd simulator like Massive they use in some movies since LOTR, it's way out of TV's budget except for extremely simple shots (crowds standing there simple, forget anything like battles and such).
There's also more than budget (though it's linked, as time is money and it's not a cliché in VFX): TV doesn't have enough time either.
I am still inclined to think most sets could be handled with location shots and facades. Most of the series takes place in either small towns, countryside or wilderness. Even the biggest cities would not be considered noteworthy in many countries today; the challenge there would be depicting the scale while preserving the Medieval/Renaissance setting.
It could only be done with many unknown actors playing characters we know well, which would almost invariably outrage hordes of fans, many of whom would be subjected to one (or several) of their favorite characters portrayed in an awkward and/or stilted way. Look at how people complained about Viggo Mortensen as "Stareagorn" (I actually thought he did a great job, since I cannot hold him responsible for Jacksons script requiring him to lead Eowyn on in TTT, but every time I see Liv Tyler I am very conscious of the fact her dad was stoned out of his mind throughout the '70s.)
Regrouping the books for feature films is nigh impossible; any compilation that made a film series short enough to be tenable would almost unavoidably cut a LOT of stuff from the first half dozen or so volumes. For example, easiest way to avoid the audience confusing Manetherens fall and the Trolloc Wars with the end of the AoL and the War of the Power? Combine them, or drop the Trolloc Wars entirely.
Neither solution will satisfy twenty year fans of the series any more than dropping Glorfindel to turn Arwen into "Xena: Elf-Warrior-Princess" satisfied me. I got into a big discussion about this recently with some friends, one of whom has (still) never read the series, and it provided me some interesting insight into how people previously ignorant of TLotR perceived the films. I already realized general audiences demanded Aragorn have a more prominent love interest, but what I did not anticipate was the desire for Arwen as a "strong female character" (utterly at odds with her character in the books, where she is barely mentioned until the end, and NEVER anywhere near danger due to Elronds desire to prevent her meeting her mothers fate.) Apparently Eowyn was not enough, and Galadriel does not have enough screen time to make up the difference (even though anyone familiar with the Silmarillion cannot help realizing she towers over every other character in TLotR except (possibly) Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron.)
With TWoT we would see much the same sort of thing multiplied by the greater number of characters. It still offends me that Glorfindel, almost certainly the same Glorfindel who fell defending Gondolins refugees from a balrog, was not in the films, but no one who has not read the Silmarillion knows or cares. That makes it almost irrelevant to producers more concerned about finishing in the black than satisfying die hard fans. Someshta would have the same role in any WoT films as Bombadil had in ever film version of TLotR: None; he is a great character, but a prosthetics headache only present for (IIRC) two scenes in the entire series. So he goes on the cutting room floor—now who kills Balthamel...?
Realistically, the actual content in the first half of the series makes it difficult to compress them to more than two at a time, though that could always be increased after ACoS. Averaging anything less than two books per film pushes it past seven films and requires finding actors who can convincingly play kids in their late teens for a solid decade. There is a reason TV teen dramas rarely run past five years (OK, there are many reasons, but that is a big one.)
It is not impossible; the first five books especially contain a LOT of travel, and Jordan is not obliged to painstakingly describe every fold of every leaf of every tree passed, since he is not tasked with conveying a world foreign to our own but recognizable as its plausible precursor. Jordan therefore reserves his painstaking detail for far more important matters: Clothes (to be fair, the detail he devotes to clothing does do a great deal to establish the presence of many rich and diverse cultures, especially in the Westlands.) The long stretches on horseback with Moiraine and Lan, however, also provide a convenient excuse to info dump the readers under the guise of the characters staving off the boredom that comes with days of uninteresting road trips. Any adaptation that retained much of the backstory would be obliged to do it the same way, perhaps as a flashback to avoid twenty minutes of characters plodding along on horses conversing (though that would probably be a lot cheaper than depicting the fall of Manetheren.)
The real narrative problem is that until CoT every book has a sharp prominent climax, and most are fairly eventful until TPoD. Any combination is thus challenging, but SPLITTING any would be unthinkable for feature films unless the remainder were combined with the entirety of the pre/succeeding volume. Jackson did that to some extent with TTT, reserving Cirith Ungol for the final film, possible because he cut nearly everything after Aragorns coronation. Doubling up still makes the most sense, providing climaxes for the first half of the series in Falme, the siege of Cairhien (or the journey to Rhuidean) and Dumai's Wells, with the Eye of the World, Rand taking Callandor and "Choices" providing mid-film peaks. Still very challenging though; a LOT of things happen in TSR and TFoH, which would almost of necessity form the bulk of two separate films, forcing TDR and LoC to contract to accommodate them. Compared to that, combining TEotW and TGH is almost trivial (particularly since so much of TGH is travel scenes.)
It could be done, but would have to be a money maker second and foremost a labor of love akin to what Jackson did with TLotR (though it might be more accurate to call that an act of stalking, with TWoT taking TLotRs place as the bound and gagged victim of desire. ) A TV series would be far more tenable, because it would not be forced to cram everything into a half dozen bloated installments. Then you just have to convince people to play Morgase and Tallanvor for a few hundred dollars in the first season, knowing they will have crucial roles from the middle of the series to the end. I just stumbled on a cast list that had a number of very good choices for many roles, with the problem being that, for a series or film, it would be impractical to cast Bruce Willis as Abell Cauthon or John Goodman as Vanin.
It could be done, but would require MANY people VERY committed to the project, and I do not expect it will be done, let alone well, any time soon. Feature films are almost out of the question, which would mean doing it with TVs smaller budgets, and convincing a lot of extras to fill roles in armies for no more reward than the privilege of saying they were on TV.
I do not think the special effects budget as much an obstacle as casting is; as such things go, TWoT is not chock full o' "big 'splosions." Some of the most memorable scenes provide obvious instances (e.g. Dumai's Wells, the Cleansing, almost every direct combat between Rand and Forsaken,) but most episodes involving the One Power and similar non-material phenomena can be easily, convincingly and inexpensively depicted by some combination of CGI, super-imposition, stop-motion filming and/or thin wires.
The One Power is nothing. ¨People obsess with that, but it's really all basic stuff nowadays. CGI would take care of nearly everything and is far less less expensive that some of the techniques you brought up (and I kind of know this, digital VFX is what I do for a living... TV shows try to avoid SFX on set as much as possible, because the techniques aren't always that expensive in themselves, but most take a great deal of time and slow down filming a lot, and that makes them very expensive to use.).
What's very expensive for TV are stuff like CG set expansions, very involved motion tracking, creatures, particle effects. They're very clever how they do it on GoT (which is a big budget show). Nothing's gratuitous and people most often won't notice they found a way to make an impressive shot 10x less expensive by not moving the camera, as would rather have been done in a feature film. Or they'll give us a few very expensive shots, and most of the rest will be cut-saving ones, by clever framing. They can pull it off, notably, because they skip VFX scenes with tons of extras that would require tons of angles in one scene.
But even then, the kind of budget they have on GOT is not really thinkable for a 22 ep/season show.
And forget scenes like Dumai's Wells and such, that's totally unthinkable without SW/LOTR-level of budget. Those crowd simulator like Massive they use in some movies since LOTR, it's way out of TV's budget except for extremely simple shots (crowds standing there simple, forget anything like battles and such).
There's also more than budget (though it's linked, as time is money and it's not a cliché in VFX): TV doesn't have enough time either.
I am still inclined to think most sets could be handled with location shots and facades. Most of the series takes place in either small towns, countryside or wilderness. Even the biggest cities would not be considered noteworthy in many countries today; the challenge there would be depicting the scale while preserving the Medieval/Renaissance setting.
And yes, the casting on WOT would be the biggest nightmare, much bigger than VFX. I've been saying that all along. Another big problem is that RJ on purpose spent well over a third of book one mimicking the tone and plot of LOTR, then he gave fairy tale overtones to the middle part, and then switched to more classic epic fantasy for the ending. That worked well for some in the book, but on film the fact it's so close to LOTR in the first hour of the movie will draw tons of acerbic comparisons from reviewers and some of the audience. WOT also has a important change in tone/focus by the mid-series. It hasn't sit well with many readers, but that's nothing compared to what would happen with a TV/movie audience.
It could only be done with many unknown actors playing characters we know well, which would almost invariably outrage hordes of fans, many of whom would be subjected to one (or several) of their favorite characters portrayed in an awkward and/or stilted way. Look at how people complained about Viggo Mortensen as "Stareagorn" (I actually thought he did a great job, since I cannot hold him responsible for Jacksons script requiring him to lead Eowyn on in TTT, but every time I see Liv Tyler I am very conscious of the fact her dad was stoned out of his mind throughout the '70s.)
The way you regroup the books makes no sense at all. They have problems cramming EOTW in a single movie apparently. A postproduction heavy movie which lasts 3h30/4h costs twice as much as a 2h one, for the same revenues. Hollywood isn't very keen on those nowadays (not that they ever were, they basically invented the 90min for FLF norm...).
People go around saying "they can cut this, and then that" but they just don't realize how much gets also added for a movie to make sense to anyone who hasn't got tons of exposition from the books. OP concepts are complicated for example, and for much of the plot to make sense, you can't skip it. In a movie, you don't have the luxury you have in a book to pepper bits of exposition everywhere and build it up. In TV and even more movies, you need to devote scenes to each concept. OP/the Wheel cosmology and the DO/ta'veren/the WOS-Breaking, the TW, Manetheren and Aridhol, the Borderlands, the conflict in Caemlyn etc. There's a massive lot of exposition to include in EOTW for it to make sense. Just conveying enough of the backstory of Manetheren and the TW (avoiding to mix up the audience with the WOS/Breaking, would need a good 5 minutes, and then another good 5 for Aridhol - that's already a 12th of the movie right there). A lot of the plot is also driven by complicated matters (just think of the Aiel and Cairhien, for example) - twenty countries, tons of cities, a lot of backstory and so on. There are reasons why RJ slowed things down by book 4... he needed more and more space for exposition. The first three books are relatively OK, for long movies or a TV season each. It's by TSR things would derail...
It's a very bad series for a movie franchise. When the source material can't transfer well to the screen without losing its soul because of all sort of constraints, why bother? There are tons of stories based around the same core as WOT that would make far better TV or movie projects (Sanderson's Mistborn, for instance - and beside, it's an original take on Fantasy). If a network really wanted a WOT-style show, they'd be far better to actually work with a Fantasy author to get a great story and world crafted specifically for the medium, which a TV writing team could then take over. A world built taking care of all budget considerations, a manageable main and secondary cast and care to have the minor parts not recurring, a great care taken to write storyarcs that fit well the patterns of a TV season and so on. You don't make a Lost by adapting it from a book, you write it yourself to take all the advantages a weekly 22 episode show gain you.
I mentionned LHOTP merely for the series's tone and how character driven the show was. If WOT took place in the TR we wouldn't be arguing...
People go around saying "they can cut this, and then that" but they just don't realize how much gets also added for a movie to make sense to anyone who hasn't got tons of exposition from the books. OP concepts are complicated for example, and for much of the plot to make sense, you can't skip it. In a movie, you don't have the luxury you have in a book to pepper bits of exposition everywhere and build it up. In TV and even more movies, you need to devote scenes to each concept. OP/the Wheel cosmology and the DO/ta'veren/the WOS-Breaking, the TW, Manetheren and Aridhol, the Borderlands, the conflict in Caemlyn etc. There's a massive lot of exposition to include in EOTW for it to make sense. Just conveying enough of the backstory of Manetheren and the TW (avoiding to mix up the audience with the WOS/Breaking, would need a good 5 minutes, and then another good 5 for Aridhol - that's already a 12th of the movie right there). A lot of the plot is also driven by complicated matters (just think of the Aiel and Cairhien, for example) - twenty countries, tons of cities, a lot of backstory and so on. There are reasons why RJ slowed things down by book 4... he needed more and more space for exposition. The first three books are relatively OK, for long movies or a TV season each. It's by TSR things would derail...
It's a very bad series for a movie franchise. When the source material can't transfer well to the screen without losing its soul because of all sort of constraints, why bother? There are tons of stories based around the same core as WOT that would make far better TV or movie projects (Sanderson's Mistborn, for instance - and beside, it's an original take on Fantasy). If a network really wanted a WOT-style show, they'd be far better to actually work with a Fantasy author to get a great story and world crafted specifically for the medium, which a TV writing team could then take over. A world built taking care of all budget considerations, a manageable main and secondary cast and care to have the minor parts not recurring, a great care taken to write storyarcs that fit well the patterns of a TV season and so on. You don't make a Lost by adapting it from a book, you write it yourself to take all the advantages a weekly 22 episode show gain you.
I mentionned LHOTP merely for the series's tone and how character driven the show was. If WOT took place in the TR we wouldn't be arguing...
Regrouping the books for feature films is nigh impossible; any compilation that made a film series short enough to be tenable would almost unavoidably cut a LOT of stuff from the first half dozen or so volumes. For example, easiest way to avoid the audience confusing Manetherens fall and the Trolloc Wars with the end of the AoL and the War of the Power? Combine them, or drop the Trolloc Wars entirely.
Neither solution will satisfy twenty year fans of the series any more than dropping Glorfindel to turn Arwen into "Xena: Elf-Warrior-Princess" satisfied me. I got into a big discussion about this recently with some friends, one of whom has (still) never read the series, and it provided me some interesting insight into how people previously ignorant of TLotR perceived the films. I already realized general audiences demanded Aragorn have a more prominent love interest, but what I did not anticipate was the desire for Arwen as a "strong female character" (utterly at odds with her character in the books, where she is barely mentioned until the end, and NEVER anywhere near danger due to Elronds desire to prevent her meeting her mothers fate.) Apparently Eowyn was not enough, and Galadriel does not have enough screen time to make up the difference (even though anyone familiar with the Silmarillion cannot help realizing she towers over every other character in TLotR except (possibly) Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron.)
With TWoT we would see much the same sort of thing multiplied by the greater number of characters. It still offends me that Glorfindel, almost certainly the same Glorfindel who fell defending Gondolins refugees from a balrog, was not in the films, but no one who has not read the Silmarillion knows or cares. That makes it almost irrelevant to producers more concerned about finishing in the black than satisfying die hard fans. Someshta would have the same role in any WoT films as Bombadil had in ever film version of TLotR: None; he is a great character, but a prosthetics headache only present for (IIRC) two scenes in the entire series. So he goes on the cutting room floor—now who kills Balthamel...?
Realistically, the actual content in the first half of the series makes it difficult to compress them to more than two at a time, though that could always be increased after ACoS. Averaging anything less than two books per film pushes it past seven films and requires finding actors who can convincingly play kids in their late teens for a solid decade. There is a reason TV teen dramas rarely run past five years (OK, there are many reasons, but that is a big one.)
It is not impossible; the first five books especially contain a LOT of travel, and Jordan is not obliged to painstakingly describe every fold of every leaf of every tree passed, since he is not tasked with conveying a world foreign to our own but recognizable as its plausible precursor. Jordan therefore reserves his painstaking detail for far more important matters: Clothes (to be fair, the detail he devotes to clothing does do a great deal to establish the presence of many rich and diverse cultures, especially in the Westlands.) The long stretches on horseback with Moiraine and Lan, however, also provide a convenient excuse to info dump the readers under the guise of the characters staving off the boredom that comes with days of uninteresting road trips. Any adaptation that retained much of the backstory would be obliged to do it the same way, perhaps as a flashback to avoid twenty minutes of characters plodding along on horses conversing (though that would probably be a lot cheaper than depicting the fall of Manetheren.)
The real narrative problem is that until CoT every book has a sharp prominent climax, and most are fairly eventful until TPoD. Any combination is thus challenging, but SPLITTING any would be unthinkable for feature films unless the remainder were combined with the entirety of the pre/succeeding volume. Jackson did that to some extent with TTT, reserving Cirith Ungol for the final film, possible because he cut nearly everything after Aragorns coronation. Doubling up still makes the most sense, providing climaxes for the first half of the series in Falme, the siege of Cairhien (or the journey to Rhuidean) and Dumai's Wells, with the Eye of the World, Rand taking Callandor and "Choices" providing mid-film peaks. Still very challenging though; a LOT of things happen in TSR and TFoH, which would almost of necessity form the bulk of two separate films, forcing TDR and LoC to contract to accommodate them. Compared to that, combining TEotW and TGH is almost trivial (particularly since so much of TGH is travel scenes.)
It could be done, but would have to be a money maker second and foremost a labor of love akin to what Jackson did with TLotR (though it might be more accurate to call that an act of stalking, with TWoT taking TLotRs place as the bound and gagged victim of desire. ) A TV series would be far more tenable, because it would not be forced to cram everything into a half dozen bloated installments. Then you just have to convince people to play Morgase and Tallanvor for a few hundred dollars in the first season, knowing they will have crucial roles from the middle of the series to the end. I just stumbled on a cast list that had a number of very good choices for many roles, with the problem being that, for a series or film, it would be impractical to cast Bruce Willis as Abell Cauthon or John Goodman as Vanin.
It could be done, but would require MANY people VERY committed to the project, and I do not expect it will be done, let alone well, any time soon. Feature films are almost out of the question, which would mean doing it with TVs smaller budgets, and convincing a lot of extras to fill roles in armies for no more reward than the privilege of saying they were on TV.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Movie
10/05/2012 05:23:07 AM
- 1240 Views
Not likely to happen any time soon
10/05/2012 11:23:33 PM
- 878 Views
Right People
11/05/2012 01:16:55 AM
- 731 Views
Hollywood would just get it all wrong anyway. Are they going to do 12 movies? Otherwise,
11/05/2012 03:04:32 PM
- 679 Views
I have always thought it would be much better
12/05/2012 05:19:20 PM
- 790 Views
Re: I have always thought it would be much better
16/05/2012 03:23:54 AM
- 765 Views
There could be a good market in the US since the success of shows like Clone Wars and Justice League
16/05/2012 01:55:56 PM
- 595 Views
In many cases, adjacent books could be merged with little significant loss.
14/05/2012 03:21:04 AM
- 1202 Views
That won't happen anytime soon anyway
16/05/2012 03:08:00 AM
- 983 Views
A TV series is a lot more practical than a film series, since it is a soap opera in many ways.
21/05/2012 01:23:04 AM
- 809 Views
Re: A TV series is a lot more practical than a film series, since it is a soap opera in many ways.
21/05/2012 03:49:52 AM
- 1139 Views
I will have to take your word on the special effects.
21/05/2012 08:05:46 AM
- 2605 Views
Re: I will have to take your word on the special effects.
21/05/2012 03:41:47 PM
- 611 Views
Odd and foolish as it sounds, I admit I had not considered the demands of cameras and lighting
21/05/2012 04:57:38 PM
- 718 Views
Re: Odd and foolish as it sounds, I admit I had not considered the demands of cameras and lighting
03/06/2012 06:43:54 PM
- 712 Views
At 1 season per book, how do you keep those Aes Sedai ageless for 14 years? *NM*
03/06/2012 07:15:37 PM
- 279 Views
I can only imagine how horrible the Rand/Ishy fight on Toman Head would be *NM*
13/05/2012 04:06:53 AM
- 315 Views
At this point, I HIGHLY doubt that a movie could be made about the books.
02/06/2012 02:46:53 AM
- 748 Views