The difference there is that Rand immediately realized and admitted he acted rashly, something I cannot recall Egwene ever doing in connection with Bode (though I may simply have forgotten her doing so.) However, I would not characterize Narishmas Callandor retrieval as the perfectly safe mission you imply; IIRC, the first thing he said to Rand on his return was that he was nearly killed by RANDS WARDS, to say nothing of the fact every living male Forsaken (and Taim) would have cheerfully slit his throat in a second to get their hands on Callandor. To suggest that was somehow far less dangerous than sending a novice to make cuendillar in the heart of a war against people BOUND BY THE POWER NOT TO USE IT AS A WEAPON is ridiculous. Even after capturing Egwene (the titular leader of those with whom they were at war) all they did was drug her so she could not channel and send her back to novice classes. If any of the Forsaken had caught Narishma with Callandor he would not have had time to scream before he died.

Yet Rand sent Narishma for Callandor anyway, despite his rising paranoia and suspicion of all those around him (and it being the second most powerful male sa'angreal ever made) because he had too many other concerns to personally address each of them. Egwene could not even delegate a comparatively minor task, with virtually no risk of betrayal, to the person best suited, and it nearly cost the White Tower everything. The lesson she learned from that? The Rebels could not be allowed to rescue her from her own idiocy; the girl-Amyrlin had a PLAN! That Elaidas equally but more overtly domineering rule made it a success does not make it any wiser; on the contrary, it is a further argument against leaders trying to dominate everything and everyone around them. Unless Egwenes grand plan involved the Seanchan raiding the Tower and carrying Elaida off as damane, it was as much dumb luck as any wisdom on her part; as much as the Usurper Towers residents loathed and feared Elaida, they were never going to replace her with the proud treasonous novice in the dungeon.


Egwene did not have more experience with the Oath Rod than the Sitters did (not that that would stop her) but having others amass data for ones personal review, analysis and DECISION MAKING is very limited delegation. Counting US revenue and expenditures is delegated to the GAO, but the Constitution reserves collecting and spending revenue to Congress.

I will credit Egwene with enough sense to know the Black Ajah investigation was well under way before she ever returned to the Tower, and that charging into the middle of it was likely to end with them all on their knees in Shayol Ghul, but I award few points for not screwing up the glaringly and dangerously obvious.

Egwene (mercifully) knows she is completely unqualified to manage the army, but never valued it except as a lever against the Hall, first in Salidar when they refused to act, then in Tar Valon when THAT Hall remained loyal to Elaida. With those values expended, she casually surrendered control over the army to the Hall in exchange for VERY valuable authority to deal with the Dragon. The Novices and Accepted are much the same; you forgot to mention she has not assumed direct personal control of the scullery maids, dockhands and other groups she has no desire to control.

Siuans sole remaining vestige of independence is controlling the Eyes and Ears; many have tried and failed to seize them from her.

So, out of all of that, the only notable decision to her credit is letting Nynaeve lead the assault on the Black Ajah. Truly impressive.


I am aware of no version of the Arthurian Cycle in which Gawaine kills Arthur. In most versions, Lancelot kills Gareth (who idolized him) amid battle rage while rescuing Guinevere when she is about to be executed for treason. Gawaine, enraged at witnessing his brothers mentor slay him, besieges Joyous Garde, fights a savage battle with Lancelot, and is slowly worn down and killed once the sun passes noon and his strength begins to wane rather than wax, but forgives Lancelot with his dying breath. None of that involves any of them killing Arthur, who, per the WoT parallel, is usually mortally wounded while slaying Mordred, and carried off to Avalon for "healing," with his ultimate fate unknown. Gawyns principle arc is concerned with which role he plays when Egwene faces execution, and SEEMS resolved (though I do not rule out HIM weepingly plunging a dagger into HER heart if she is turned.)



There are a total of TWO, the same number of foreshadowings that Egwene may be turned to the Shadow; one episode counts for both. Thus my statement "As for 'myriad' foreshadowings she will be asked to kill Rand, there are at least as many foreshadowings of her being turned to the Shadow" is valid.


That is indeed absurd; it is considerably easier to find fault with Egwene since ToM, as I have repeatedly noted.


My point is that Sandersons understanding of Egwene is not on par with Jordans; he had a better, intuitive, grasp of how she would behave in a variety of situations, even those that would never occur in print, than Sanderson, who can only draw conclusions from what he has read in the books and Jordans notes. That makes his general pronouncements about her less certain and absolute than Jordans, because what would be canon from the latter is more of an educated guess from the former. Sandersons access to Jordans notes and general knowledge of the serious makes him reliable about specific events, but asked "if Egwene were a tree, what kind of tree would she be?" Sanderson has little more idea than the rest of us.


Lie? No; that would be as bad as Jordan telling us "Slayer killed Asmo" just so he could surprise us with the truth in the books later. Mislead? Hell, yes; Jordan routinely did so in interviews, and if Sanderson has done it less, it is only because he has had less opportunities and must be more concerned about inadvertently revealing too much too soon. Good grief, Aes Sedai have been prevaricating their way through the pages of TWoT and around the First Oath from the very start; do you honestly still take everything the authors say at face value? The truth an author speaks is not the truth you hear; we must simply RAFO....


Again, she is not mustering them to play Scrabble.


She has yet to mention them, to Nynaeve, the WOs, her fellow Aes Sedai, the rulers she is begging to come for the sake of the world, or even in her own head. She may have very valid and compelling reasons, but if so, Sanderson is concealing them from us until the final volume, though you are certainly free to speculate what they may be (even though Egwene has not, even once.)


"FORCE HER HAND." That is an unambiguous statement she intends coercion if she cannot convince him. "SWAY THEM TO HER WAY OF THINKING." A nearly as clearly stated intent to manipulate Westlands rulers into taking her side.


Now is what we are discussing; my whole point there was that not dominating those around her as a captive was due to circumstance rather than integrity, and neither here nor there to how she behaves now that she actually has a great deal of real power. Egwene, Novice in Tar Valons dungeons, would obviously not assemble the Westlands armies to force Rand to do (or not do) anything, because she could not, but was manifestly not the Egwene, Amyrlin in Tar Valons Hall, doing precisely that now. The Egwene in TGS and the Egwene in TGH are equally irrelevant to how the Egwene in AMoL will behave.


Correct.


She had few opportunities to do anything but speak with impotent fellow novices and her Red captors. She did use those few opportunities nevertheless, playing on the suspicion Elaida created to foster uncertainty with her captors, and even gradually subverting Silviana to her cause. Also recall the bizarre spectacle of the captive would-be Amyrlin meeting with various Aes Sedai (under her captors' watchful eyes,) something Elaida encouraged to discredit the Tower-in-Exile, but which Egwene consciously used, not to establish solidarity and unity, but to actively foster the growing DISUNITY between the Usurper Towers residents and its Amyrlin.

Now, obviously Egwene wanted Aes Sedai to be collectively united under a strong Amyrlin; she simply wanted herself to be that Amyrlin rather than Elaida. Thus it would not be in her interest (quite the contrary) to promote Aes Sedai insubordination against every directive from every Amyrlin, only to convince them their PRESENT Amyrlin was unfit for the stole. Again, the most laughable part of her grand plan is that it only succeeded due to the Seanchan raid (an event her Dreams foretold without specifying a date) carrying off Elaida as damane (something she had no reason to anticipate, let alone incorporate in planning.)


Seriously? Salidar is where she learned and honed the fine art of covert domination through manipulation she so adroitly employs now.


Manipulation is not force; that is the beauty of it: People do what as directed without feeling compelled, often without even REALIZING they are doing so until far too late, if ever. That kind of leadership is every bit as dominant as what Elaida did, but far more effective because the puppets seldom see the strings on which they dance, and even then can never be certain they see the RIGHT ones. The case of the Hall trading authority over the army for authority to deal with heads of state is a prime example: They thought they had swindled Egwene, only to learn too late she had instead swindled them. Sure, "you cannot con an honest man," but that does not make con artists any more honest than their marks are.

As for the amendment to Tower law: First of all, there is NO way she could have forced a penance on the Hall for meeting behind her back, something they had every right and power to do. More importantly, however, no Amyrlin could get the Halls approval for treaties of alliance between the White Tower and the local butcher, much less the Sea Folk or Aiel, without the Lesser Consensus. The amendment did absolutely nothing to limit Egwenes power; it simply ensured the Hall could not enact policy (such as deposing her as they did Siuan) without her knowledge and involvement. She did not blunt her own power one whit, but blunted theirs a great deal, largely because 1) drawing the obvious comparison with Elaida usurping the stole alarmed and shamed them and 2) she is a major character in the series.


She certainly COULD have called such a meeting but, as you note, cannot even get a Lesser Consensus to approve relatively trivial matters, much less a secret alliance between foreign states and/or large channeling groups. Tower Law requires a quorum of Sitters to enact policy, and even if those firmly behind Egwene unanimously supported those alliances, there are not enough to provide that quorum and deliver a binding consensus, lesser or greater. Egwene gave up NOTHING in exchange for more personal security than any Amyrlin in history, by shaming the very people who convened a secret meeting to undermine her into banning any future ones.

THAT is manipulation in its highest purest form: She got her strongest opponents to voluntarily relinquish their greatest weapon against her FOR NOTHING.


Egwene does not demand: She manipulates. Her style is very different from and far more effective than Elaidas (watching Elaida attempt "manipulation" was like watching someone do needlepoint with a sledgehammer) but her goal is identical, and no more open to negotiation or modification.


Oh, Egwene is a study in situational ethics; that does not make her any more open to others input, or a consensus builder. She often does the wrong thing for the right reasons, but let us not confuse pragmatism with nobility. Everything she is doing in assembling the Westlands rulers and armies to "convince" Rand not to break the Seals, and act at her behest when he "forces her hand" by refusing, flies in the face of her statement that "[Aes Sedai] simply cannot be allowed to dice with the Last Battle or the Dragon Reborn." She has more integrity than anyone else in the Hall, but is still no better than First among Manipulators.


I assure you I realize that; the problem is Egwene made it policy and habit rather than a method of last resort, and applies it to everyone. The closest thing she has to a confidante is Siuan, and only because the latter has COMPLETELY (and unconvincingly) subordinated herself to Egwenes will. Everyone else receives varying degrees of manipulation, with the extent determined by how much or little inclined debate her wishes. EVERYONE else; she even manipulates her lover, the kind of behavior more typical of cads in bad romance novels than of heroines. Egwene makes what should be necessity habit; she often does so with the good motives and to good effect, but the ends do not justify the means, and the latter is far from praiseworthy where Egwene is concerned.


Rand, at least in his current form, manipulates when he feels (rightly or not) debate will do no good; Egwene does nothing BUT manipulate, with even supposed "discussions" no more than another subtle form of manipulation. You seem to be laboring under the misconception continually getting people to obey against their will is legitimate if they do so unwittingly rather than fearfully. If anything, it is less so, because coercion is at least open domination easily recognized, and thus opposed (if not always successfully.) Manipulation is far more insidious, because resisting apparent goals one opposes often leads, by design, to achieving ACTUAL goals one opposes.

All that said, Rand is still far from perfect, but does at least see value in true PARTNERSHIPS, debating different ideas, sharing responsibility and power, convincing others to follow rather than deceiving them into compliance. He is the kind of leader people often "want to obey" even without some fictional ta'veren effect, because they not only respect his abilities, but trust his motives as much as his judgement. Habitually manipulative leaders are often effective, but few follow them out of loyalty, trust or true respect; even their closest allies see a hook in everything they do, for one very simple reason: One is always there....

Consider this: Suppose Egwene were WRONG about something. Something really big and important, say, whether the Dragon should break the Seals on the DOs prison. Her approach would be exactly the same as in all other cases, and many powerful people who disagreed with her true position would find themselves unknowingly advancing it anyway. When it all came crashing down and she convinced them to slit their own throats, betray their own prophesied savior, would she be commended because they never realized what she was doing? Would anyone be better off than if Elaida had succeeded in carrying him imprisoned and shielded to Tar Valon as a prisoner?

Tyranny comes in more forms than just the mailed fist. What is most important in leadership, its substance or form? Right now, the substance of Egwenes leadership is little different from Elaidas, she is just proceeding far more quickly and effectively because her unilateral decision making is far more subtle, and thus far more difficult to oppose.


Fair enough; Rands childhood sweetheart, the Amyrlin, could certainly do that, without the need to let her tell the Dragon Reborn how to fight the Last Battle, or instruct the Seals maker on their function and importance.


Yeah, I really do not expect a reform if she falls; taking it back would undermine the lesson: "Arrogance and unilateral behavior does not lead to IRREVOCABLE doom if you are 'bad ass' enough; you will just experience unpleasant but temporary hard times." To have meaning the fall must be as irrevocable as it is complete.


The biggest growth in Rand in ToM is that he is far less unilateral, far more critical of his own actions and far more interested in both delegating responsibilities and sincerely seeking input from others on important decisions and acts. I did note elsewhere that the only reason he gets away with manipulating Egwene into mustering the Westlands armies for him is that he has the "protagonist insurance" she lacks, but he does seem sincere in seeking Aes Sedai counsel to fill in the necessary but still lacking parts of his plans for the Seals. His "leadership" consists of more than just pulling thousands of strings to make his puppets dance, and, unlike Egwene with Gawyn, he does not pull any with Min, Aviendha or even Elayne (ruler of the Westlands largest and most powerful nation, especially after he helped her add Cairhien to it.) He does not get a free pass, no, but I much prefer his style of leadership to Egwenes, because, at least now, he treats manipulation and coercion alike as necessary evils to be employed only (but promptly) when unavoidable.