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Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. Joel Send a noteboard - 21/05/2012 03:28:48 AM
I'm kind of shocked that anyone thinks that Egwene is in for a fall in the last book. She's going to be one of the principle protagonists.

Just because she doesn't agree with Rand doesn't mean she's in for the plunge. That's a very simplistic way of looking at her character.

Disputing that would be rather "simplistic," too, no? :P

It is not merely that she disagrees with Rand, but that she is so adamant about it, to the point of assembling armies and poisoning their friends since childhood against the plan. If she backs down in the event, everything obviously changes, but backing down in confrontations is not exactly Egwenes hallmark, is it? Her habit is to feign submission and immediately begin devising alternate methods to accomplish her unwavering objective. While the series often calls both stubborn, RAND has backed down far more often than Egwene (the case that comes most readily to mind is his abortive war against the Seanchan.) The biggest difference is that Rand has often witnessed, recognized and regretted the high cost of his arrogance and obstinance. For all the talk of "encapsulating leadership," that is not a leadership trait we have seen much in Egwene.

As I say, if she DOES back down, uncharacteristic as that would be, everything changes. If, however, she does not, if she insists on opposing Rands plan to break the Seals with the army she is assembling for that purpose (which would be VERY characteristic,) then the BEST case scenario is the Dragon Reborn publicly and successfully defying the Amyrlins authority literally in front of the whole world. We know Rand must break the Seals as assuredly as Egwene "knows" he must NOT, and before the audience she is gathering, the only possibilities are that she either relents or badly loses a mammoth confrontation. The former is quite inconsistent with her character, leaving the latter the only plausible option. The only question is just how bad the very bad defeat will be.

Of course she will back down in some form. If she deliberately challenged Rand after their meeting at Merillor it could only spell disaster for her and the Aes Sedai - they have no hope of defeating him in any way.

They could always try to Shield him, though how he would fight the Last Battle in that state is unclear, and any Ashaman with him would likely be somewhat upset.

Clearly she wants to put her arguments across to him. She may actually convince him to do a few things, but even if she doesn't, everyone know that Egwene and the rest of the band from Emonds Field are going to rally behind him for the LB. I can't believe you think RJ would plan her demise prior to the LB just to settle a minor contest they've had since childhood.

The thing is, in all of her discussions with those she is poisoning against Rands plan, she has yet to MAKE any arguments except "Rand must not break the Seals because it would loose the DO on the world." Prophecy and common sense says the Seals WILL break and the DO WILL be loosed eventually whether Rand breaks the Seals or not. Far more importantly in this context, however, is that 1) Egwene has not presented even a speculative alternative to Rands plan, even in her own mind and 2) her only "counter-argument" is that it will hasten something universally known to be inevitable. The only logical arguments presented on the subject have come from Rand and those sympathetic to his plan.

Egwene has never spoken of hearing out Rands arguments or presenting any counter-arguments of her own: Her efforts consist wholly of convincing everyone she can that Rands plan MUST be stopped at any cost, and assembling the Westlands leaders (with their armies) toward that end. She is not bringing them to Merrilor for a discussion or negotiation, but an ultimatum, one Rand almost certainly must reject.

She SHOULD back down, but that does not mean she WILL; in the context of Sandersons statements that her character development is complete, it does not even seem likely. Rands character arc has been all about developing, then smoothing, the edge of his indomitable will; Egwenes has been about hardening and concealing her equally indomitable one. Time and again, what we have seen in TWoT is that hard=brittle and "clever" people often outsmart themselves.

No, I do not think RJ intended to destroy Egwene just to settle her childish competition with Rand. I think he MAY well have intended to destroy Egwene for many of the same reasons Melville destroyed Ahab, reasons that make them more central to their respective stories than anything they do themselves. Reserving fatal flaws to minor and/or distasteful characters robs the bildungsroman of its impact, because no one casts themselves as the villain in their own life story. If tragedy can befall even the most gifted, beloved and PROMINENT characters through arrogance or carelessness, it can happen to anyone else the same way. Let us not forget that TWoT began with its most indisputable protagonists arrogance leading him to suicide and legendary infamy.
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The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 03:52:14 PM 5021 Views
It's pretty damn cool. - 03/05/2012 03:59:36 PM 2670 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 04:08:09 PM 2798 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 04:17:19 PM 2774 Views
the pit of doom is hot - 12/06/2012 01:57:18 AM 2269 Views
I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. - 03/05/2012 04:26:42 PM 2823 Views
yes. I sincerely doubt she has that kind of competency - 03/05/2012 05:52:22 PM 2685 Views
Re: I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. - 04/05/2012 11:10:49 AM 2536 Views
Heh - Cannoli-baiting *NM* - 04/05/2012 04:46:51 PM 1988 Views
*NM* - 05/05/2012 09:04:15 PM 1908 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 05:06:19 PM 2436 Views
I really like it - 03/05/2012 05:54:51 PM 2720 Views
The sword grip is not akward or wrong - 03/05/2012 06:20:54 PM 2451 Views
something like this? - 03/05/2012 06:46:59 PM 3038 Views
Its the sword thats not a sword (its a night light!) - 04/05/2012 04:47:27 PM 2452 Views
oh no fair enough! like i said, I just think it looks a little awkward. - 04/05/2012 10:04:21 PM 2411 Views
Me, too! - 12/05/2012 01:18:06 AM 2517 Views
Well... - 03/05/2012 06:09:51 PM 2817 Views
I think it is EG and Nyn - 03/05/2012 06:24:13 PM 2513 Views
Pretty sure it's Mo and Nyn - 03/05/2012 06:40:49 PM 2550 Views
Yeah... - 03/05/2012 07:55:32 PM 2466 Views
when did Nynaeve cut her hair? - 08/05/2012 07:33:04 PM 4054 Views
It was burned off during her testing for the shawl. - 12/06/2012 02:53:43 AM 3210 Views
Egwene is a distinct possibility... - 03/05/2012 11:37:48 PM 2600 Views
She is - 04/05/2012 12:15:21 AM 2705 Views
I don't know... - 04/05/2012 12:25:53 AM 2422 Views
Re: I don't know... - 04/05/2012 02:47:02 AM 2614 Views
I'm not disagreeing with most of that... - 08/05/2012 02:58:53 AM 2309 Views
"You expect me to wise up?" "No, Egwene, I expect you to DIE!" - 11/05/2012 01:36:09 AM 2530 Views
What books have you been reading? - 11/05/2012 01:57:31 AM 2560 Views
I agree - 11/05/2012 02:51:38 PM 2666 Views
The other quotes you requested, as promised. - 13/05/2012 03:29:41 AM 2621 Views
You misinterpreting quotes is hardly worth requoting... - 13/05/2012 11:36:21 AM 2321 Views
Agreed - 13/05/2012 03:39:12 PM 2427 Views
Exactly... - 13/05/2012 05:53:17 PM 2385 Views
Never said she was evil, just wrong. Horribly and tragically wrong. - 14/05/2012 02:34:27 AM 2418 Views
- 14/05/2012 04:23:21 AM 2348 Views
Re- - 21/05/2012 02:43:49 AM 2824 Views
Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 14/05/2012 02:21:42 AM 2426 Views
Then she wouldn't be a "protagonist" - 14/05/2012 04:38:34 AM 2367 Views
Again, I never said she is or will become evil. - 21/05/2012 03:03:32 AM 2532 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 14/05/2012 08:32:50 AM 2479 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 21/05/2012 03:28:48 AM 2314 Views
For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 01:58:26 AM 2507 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 03:51:31 AM 2724 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 06:41:32 AM 2495 Views
Yeah... - 14/05/2012 07:47:16 AM 2508 Views
Re: Yeah... - 14/05/2012 04:40:49 PM 2542 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 21/05/2012 06:21:48 AM 2458 Views
Look at their foreheads - 16/05/2012 08:38:51 AM 2556 Views
Re: I think it is EG and Nyn - 03/05/2012 07:38:36 PM 2508 Views
I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 03/05/2012 09:05:58 PM 2341 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 03/05/2012 11:28:42 PM 2494 Views
Idea - 04/05/2012 10:11:05 AM 2487 Views
Re: Idea - 04/05/2012 12:09:17 PM 2472 Views
Or.... - 04/05/2012 12:19:16 PM 2361 Views
This would explain the hidden hand - 04/05/2012 08:54:00 PM 2502 Views
That's a good point. - 04/05/2012 08:59:41 PM 2633 Views
Nah... - 07/05/2012 01:56:13 PM 2554 Views
Can you draw a blade - 08/05/2012 06:00:28 AM 2482 Views
It depens on the construction of the scabbard - 10/05/2012 01:36:30 PM 2400 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 04/05/2012 02:49:51 PM 1562 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 04/05/2012 07:42:12 PM 2598 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 07/05/2012 08:02:26 PM 2380 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 07/05/2012 09:32:45 PM 2620 Views
Thanks! *NM* - 13/05/2012 10:56:06 AM 2351 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 07:25:37 PM 2357 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 07:36:09 PM 2486 Views
It's his left hand Rand lost *NM* - 03/05/2012 08:00:01 PM 1931 Views
Thanks for the imput! *NM* - 03/05/2012 08:24:59 PM 2302 Views
I does not look like Nynaeve and Moiraine - 03/05/2012 11:39:01 PM 2429 Views
Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... - 03/05/2012 11:44:50 PM 2582 Views
Re: Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... - 03/05/2012 11:51:02 PM 3412 Views
Am I the only one who sees the red dot in her forehead? *NM* - 09/05/2012 08:36:53 PM 1962 Views
looks *$%$%*@ great *NM* - 04/05/2012 02:47:00 AM 2040 Views
i quite like it! as far as the women go... - 04/05/2012 06:38:10 PM 2568 Views
No Maidens of the Spear - 05/05/2012 05:09:27 PM 2552 Views
Re: No Maidens of the Spear - 07/05/2012 02:02:36 PM 2663 Views
nynaeve with no braid?.... are we sure its not egwene? or did no one tell him the hairstyles? *NM* - 08/05/2012 06:48:49 PM 1843 Views
Nyn cut her braid off. *NM* - 08/05/2012 06:55:02 PM 2089 Views
I thought it was burned off during her test for Aes Sedaihood. *NM* - 08/05/2012 07:25:51 PM 951 Views
I don't remember this at all *NM* - 08/05/2012 07:51:04 PM 2079 Views
Regarding the identities of the women on the back: - 09/05/2012 08:52:47 PM 2684 Views
What the hell is on the ground close to the bottom edge of the picture? *NM* - 10/05/2012 05:55:07 AM 2017 Views
A misplaced logo? *NM* - 10/05/2012 08:24:52 AM 1953 Views
Possibly one of the Seals? - 11/05/2012 01:42:13 AM 2466 Views
agreed - 10/05/2012 07:16:39 AM 2545 Views
Partially concur - 10/05/2012 01:17:31 PM 2325 Views
She's in the Pit of F*ing Doom. Ben Stein would be excited *NM* - 12/05/2012 04:22:44 AM 904 Views
i agree with the big about how Moiraine should be depicted - 12/05/2012 11:04:53 PM 1398 Views
you can see a second weapon in Rand's belt too - 13/05/2012 08:51:34 PM 1356 Views
That looks pretty cool, better than most of the other WoT covers - 26/06/2012 07:37:29 AM 1178 Views

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