Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls.
Joel Send a noteboard - 21/05/2012 03:28:48 AM
I'm kind of shocked that anyone thinks that Egwene is in for a fall in the last book. She's going to be one of the principle protagonists.
Just because she doesn't agree with Rand doesn't mean she's in for the plunge. That's a very simplistic way of looking at her character.
Just because she doesn't agree with Rand doesn't mean she's in for the plunge. That's a very simplistic way of looking at her character.
Disputing that would be rather "simplistic," too, no?
It is not merely that she disagrees with Rand, but that she is so adamant about it, to the point of assembling armies and poisoning their friends since childhood against the plan. If she backs down in the event, everything obviously changes, but backing down in confrontations is not exactly Egwenes hallmark, is it? Her habit is to feign submission and immediately begin devising alternate methods to accomplish her unwavering objective. While the series often calls both stubborn, RAND has backed down far more often than Egwene (the case that comes most readily to mind is his abortive war against the Seanchan.) The biggest difference is that Rand has often witnessed, recognized and regretted the high cost of his arrogance and obstinance. For all the talk of "encapsulating leadership," that is not a leadership trait we have seen much in Egwene.
As I say, if she DOES back down, uncharacteristic as that would be, everything changes. If, however, she does not, if she insists on opposing Rands plan to break the Seals with the army she is assembling for that purpose (which would be VERY characteristic,) then the BEST case scenario is the Dragon Reborn publicly and successfully defying the Amyrlins authority literally in front of the whole world. We know Rand must break the Seals as assuredly as Egwene "knows" he must NOT, and before the audience she is gathering, the only possibilities are that she either relents or badly loses a mammoth confrontation. The former is quite inconsistent with her character, leaving the latter the only plausible option. The only question is just how bad the very bad defeat will be.
Of course she will back down in some form. If she deliberately challenged Rand after their meeting at Merillor it could only spell disaster for her and the Aes Sedai - they have no hope of defeating him in any way.
They could always try to Shield him, though how he would fight the Last Battle in that state is unclear, and any Ashaman with him would likely be somewhat upset.
Clearly she wants to put her arguments across to him. She may actually convince him to do a few things, but even if she doesn't, everyone know that Egwene and the rest of the band from Emonds Field are going to rally behind him for the LB. I can't believe you think RJ would plan her demise prior to the LB just to settle a minor contest they've had since childhood.
The thing is, in all of her discussions with those she is poisoning against Rands plan, she has yet to MAKE any arguments except "Rand must not break the Seals because it would loose the DO on the world." Prophecy and common sense says the Seals WILL break and the DO WILL be loosed eventually whether Rand breaks the Seals or not. Far more importantly in this context, however, is that 1) Egwene has not presented even a speculative alternative to Rands plan, even in her own mind and 2) her only "counter-argument" is that it will hasten something universally known to be inevitable. The only logical arguments presented on the subject have come from Rand and those sympathetic to his plan.
Egwene has never spoken of hearing out Rands arguments or presenting any counter-arguments of her own: Her efforts consist wholly of convincing everyone she can that Rands plan MUST be stopped at any cost, and assembling the Westlands leaders (with their armies) toward that end. She is not bringing them to Merrilor for a discussion or negotiation, but an ultimatum, one Rand almost certainly must reject.
She SHOULD back down, but that does not mean she WILL; in the context of Sandersons statements that her character development is complete, it does not even seem likely. Rands character arc has been all about developing, then smoothing, the edge of his indomitable will; Egwenes has been about hardening and concealing her equally indomitable one. Time and again, what we have seen in TWoT is that hard=brittle and "clever" people often outsmart themselves.
No, I do not think RJ intended to destroy Egwene just to settle her childish competition with Rand. I think he MAY well have intended to destroy Egwene for many of the same reasons Melville destroyed Ahab, reasons that make them more central to their respective stories than anything they do themselves. Reserving fatal flaws to minor and/or distasteful characters robs the bildungsroman of its impact, because no one casts themselves as the villain in their own life story. If tragedy can befall even the most gifted, beloved and PROMINENT characters through arrogance or carelessness, it can happen to anyone else the same way. Let us not forget that TWoT began with its most indisputable protagonists arrogance leading him to suicide and legendary infamy.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed.
03/05/2012 03:52:14 PM
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Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed.
03/05/2012 04:08:09 PM
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I think I like Callandor from TDR better..
03/05/2012 04:26:42 PM
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I really like it
03/05/2012 05:54:51 PM
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The sword grip is not akward or wrong
03/05/2012 06:20:54 PM
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well, for one, I didn't say it was "wrong" so don't jump down my throat.
04/05/2012 10:03:06 PM
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If you think that was jumping down your throat... seriously... *NM*
07/05/2012 01:51:45 PM
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when I initially read it, it came off that way. I apologize if I misinterpreted you. *NM*
09/05/2012 04:58:13 PM
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Its the sword thats not a sword (its a night light!)
04/05/2012 04:47:27 PM
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oh no fair enough! like i said, I just think it looks a little awkward.
04/05/2012 10:04:21 PM
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Well...
03/05/2012 06:09:51 PM
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I think it is EG and Nyn
03/05/2012 06:24:13 PM
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Pretty sure it's Mo and Nyn
03/05/2012 06:40:49 PM
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Yeah...
03/05/2012 07:55:32 PM
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Egwene is a distinct possibility...
03/05/2012 11:37:48 PM
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She is
04/05/2012 12:15:21 AM
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I don't know...
04/05/2012 12:25:53 AM
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Re: I don't know...
04/05/2012 02:47:02 AM
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"You expect me to wise up?" "No, Egwene, I expect you to DIE!"
11/05/2012 01:36:09 AM
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What books have you been reading?
11/05/2012 01:57:31 AM
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Egwene made many things "clear;" I dug up all the ToM quotes for a post near this time last year
11/05/2012 01:12:05 PM
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The other quotes you requested, as promised.
13/05/2012 03:29:41 AM
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You misinterpreting quotes is hardly worth requoting...
13/05/2012 11:36:21 AM
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Agreed
13/05/2012 03:39:12 PM
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Exactly...
13/05/2012 05:53:17 PM
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Never said she was evil, just wrong. Horribly and tragically wrong.
14/05/2012 02:34:27 AM
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Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls.
14/05/2012 02:21:42 AM
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Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls.
14/05/2012 08:32:50 AM
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Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls.
21/05/2012 03:28:48 AM
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For the most part, very little interpretation was required.
14/05/2012 01:58:26 AM
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Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required.
14/05/2012 03:51:31 AM
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Re: I think it is EG and Nyn
03/05/2012 07:38:36 PM
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I could be wrong, but I believe Rand used Calandor as a sword in the Stone.
03/05/2012 08:06:45 PM
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I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
03/05/2012 09:05:58 PM
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Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
03/05/2012 11:28:42 PM
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Idea
04/05/2012 10:11:05 AM
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Re: Idea
04/05/2012 12:09:17 PM
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This would explain the hidden hand
04/05/2012 08:54:00 PM
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Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
04/05/2012 02:49:51 PM
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Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
04/05/2012 07:42:12 PM
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Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
07/05/2012 08:02:26 PM
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I actually found the champion/politician split between parallels very convincing.
11/05/2012 01:35:34 PM
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Re: I actually found the champion/politician split between parallels very convincing.
11/05/2012 04:06:50 PM
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Egwenes problem is her knack for seeing the error of her ways without ever LEARNING it.
13/05/2012 04:57:27 AM
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The Seanchan assassin...
13/05/2012 11:47:53 AM
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You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again.
14/05/2012 02:08:26 AM
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Re: You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again.
14/05/2012 04:08:11 AM
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Re: You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again.
21/05/2012 01:59:15 AM
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looks a little 'naughty pirate novel' but is pretty fricken awesome! *NM*
03/05/2012 06:50:42 PM
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Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed.
03/05/2012 07:25:37 PM
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I does not look like Nynaeve and Moiraine
03/05/2012 11:39:01 PM
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Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM....
03/05/2012 11:44:50 PM
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Re: Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM....
03/05/2012 11:51:02 PM
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nynaeve with no braid?.... are we sure its not egwene? or did no one tell him the hairstyles? *NM*
08/05/2012 06:48:49 PM
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Nyn cut her braid off. *NM*
08/05/2012 06:55:02 PM
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I thought it was burned off during her test for Aes Sedaihood. *NM*
08/05/2012 07:25:51 PM
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Right, my mistake. Then she cut her hair to make it straight again. *NM*
08/05/2012 08:54:33 PM
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Regarding the identities of the women on the back:
09/05/2012 08:52:47 PM
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What the hell is on the ground close to the bottom edge of the picture? *NM*
10/05/2012 05:55:07 AM
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It's Michael Whelan's signature. I looked it up and found it in a different book cover *NM*
11/05/2012 07:05:22 AM
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That looks pretty cool, better than most of the other WoT covers
26/06/2012 07:37:29 AM
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