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Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. Joel Send a noteboard - 21/05/2012 03:28:48 AM
I'm kind of shocked that anyone thinks that Egwene is in for a fall in the last book. She's going to be one of the principle protagonists.

Just because she doesn't agree with Rand doesn't mean she's in for the plunge. That's a very simplistic way of looking at her character.

Disputing that would be rather "simplistic," too, no? :P

It is not merely that she disagrees with Rand, but that she is so adamant about it, to the point of assembling armies and poisoning their friends since childhood against the plan. If she backs down in the event, everything obviously changes, but backing down in confrontations is not exactly Egwenes hallmark, is it? Her habit is to feign submission and immediately begin devising alternate methods to accomplish her unwavering objective. While the series often calls both stubborn, RAND has backed down far more often than Egwene (the case that comes most readily to mind is his abortive war against the Seanchan.) The biggest difference is that Rand has often witnessed, recognized and regretted the high cost of his arrogance and obstinance. For all the talk of "encapsulating leadership," that is not a leadership trait we have seen much in Egwene.

As I say, if she DOES back down, uncharacteristic as that would be, everything changes. If, however, she does not, if she insists on opposing Rands plan to break the Seals with the army she is assembling for that purpose (which would be VERY characteristic,) then the BEST case scenario is the Dragon Reborn publicly and successfully defying the Amyrlins authority literally in front of the whole world. We know Rand must break the Seals as assuredly as Egwene "knows" he must NOT, and before the audience she is gathering, the only possibilities are that she either relents or badly loses a mammoth confrontation. The former is quite inconsistent with her character, leaving the latter the only plausible option. The only question is just how bad the very bad defeat will be.

Of course she will back down in some form. If she deliberately challenged Rand after their meeting at Merillor it could only spell disaster for her and the Aes Sedai - they have no hope of defeating him in any way.

They could always try to Shield him, though how he would fight the Last Battle in that state is unclear, and any Ashaman with him would likely be somewhat upset.

Clearly she wants to put her arguments across to him. She may actually convince him to do a few things, but even if she doesn't, everyone know that Egwene and the rest of the band from Emonds Field are going to rally behind him for the LB. I can't believe you think RJ would plan her demise prior to the LB just to settle a minor contest they've had since childhood.

The thing is, in all of her discussions with those she is poisoning against Rands plan, she has yet to MAKE any arguments except "Rand must not break the Seals because it would loose the DO on the world." Prophecy and common sense says the Seals WILL break and the DO WILL be loosed eventually whether Rand breaks the Seals or not. Far more importantly in this context, however, is that 1) Egwene has not presented even a speculative alternative to Rands plan, even in her own mind and 2) her only "counter-argument" is that it will hasten something universally known to be inevitable. The only logical arguments presented on the subject have come from Rand and those sympathetic to his plan.

Egwene has never spoken of hearing out Rands arguments or presenting any counter-arguments of her own: Her efforts consist wholly of convincing everyone she can that Rands plan MUST be stopped at any cost, and assembling the Westlands leaders (with their armies) toward that end. She is not bringing them to Merrilor for a discussion or negotiation, but an ultimatum, one Rand almost certainly must reject.

She SHOULD back down, but that does not mean she WILL; in the context of Sandersons statements that her character development is complete, it does not even seem likely. Rands character arc has been all about developing, then smoothing, the edge of his indomitable will; Egwenes has been about hardening and concealing her equally indomitable one. Time and again, what we have seen in TWoT is that hard=brittle and "clever" people often outsmart themselves.

No, I do not think RJ intended to destroy Egwene just to settle her childish competition with Rand. I think he MAY well have intended to destroy Egwene for many of the same reasons Melville destroyed Ahab, reasons that make them more central to their respective stories than anything they do themselves. Reserving fatal flaws to minor and/or distasteful characters robs the bildungsroman of its impact, because no one casts themselves as the villain in their own life story. If tragedy can befall even the most gifted, beloved and PROMINENT characters through arrogance or carelessness, it can happen to anyone else the same way. Let us not forget that TWoT began with its most indisputable protagonists arrogance leading him to suicide and legendary infamy.
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The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 03:52:14 PM 5305 Views
It's pretty damn cool. - 03/05/2012 03:59:36 PM 2966 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 04:08:09 PM 3033 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 04:17:19 PM 3029 Views
the pit of doom is hot - 12/06/2012 01:57:18 AM 2544 Views
I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. - 03/05/2012 04:26:42 PM 3096 Views
yes. I sincerely doubt she has that kind of competency - 03/05/2012 05:52:22 PM 2956 Views
Re: I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. - 04/05/2012 11:10:49 AM 2780 Views
Heh - Cannoli-baiting *NM* - 04/05/2012 04:46:51 PM 2153 Views
*NM* - 05/05/2012 09:04:15 PM 2065 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 05:06:19 PM 2703 Views
I really like it - 03/05/2012 05:54:51 PM 2983 Views
The sword grip is not akward or wrong - 03/05/2012 06:20:54 PM 2712 Views
something like this? - 03/05/2012 06:46:59 PM 3319 Views
Its the sword thats not a sword (its a night light!) - 04/05/2012 04:47:27 PM 2695 Views
oh no fair enough! like i said, I just think it looks a little awkward. - 04/05/2012 10:04:21 PM 2696 Views
Me, too! - 12/05/2012 01:18:06 AM 2790 Views
Well... - 03/05/2012 06:09:51 PM 3089 Views
I think it is EG and Nyn - 03/05/2012 06:24:13 PM 2760 Views
Pretty sure it's Mo and Nyn - 03/05/2012 06:40:49 PM 2794 Views
Yeah... - 03/05/2012 07:55:32 PM 2737 Views
when did Nynaeve cut her hair? - 08/05/2012 07:33:04 PM 4369 Views
It was burned off during her testing for the shawl. - 12/06/2012 02:53:43 AM 3617 Views
Egwene is a distinct possibility... - 03/05/2012 11:37:48 PM 2873 Views
She is - 04/05/2012 12:15:21 AM 2961 Views
I don't know... - 04/05/2012 12:25:53 AM 2685 Views
Re: I don't know... - 04/05/2012 02:47:02 AM 2926 Views
I'm not disagreeing with most of that... - 08/05/2012 02:58:53 AM 2599 Views
"You expect me to wise up?" "No, Egwene, I expect you to DIE!" - 11/05/2012 01:36:09 AM 2848 Views
What books have you been reading? - 11/05/2012 01:57:31 AM 2868 Views
I agree - 11/05/2012 02:51:38 PM 2950 Views
The other quotes you requested, as promised. - 13/05/2012 03:29:41 AM 2865 Views
You misinterpreting quotes is hardly worth requoting... - 13/05/2012 11:36:21 AM 2583 Views
Agreed - 13/05/2012 03:39:12 PM 2671 Views
Exactly... - 13/05/2012 05:53:17 PM 2622 Views
Never said she was evil, just wrong. Horribly and tragically wrong. - 14/05/2012 02:34:27 AM 2688 Views
- 14/05/2012 04:23:21 AM 2591 Views
Re- - 21/05/2012 02:43:49 AM 3070 Views
Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 14/05/2012 02:21:42 AM 2710 Views
Then she wouldn't be a "protagonist" - 14/05/2012 04:38:34 AM 2598 Views
Again, I never said she is or will become evil. - 21/05/2012 03:03:32 AM 2776 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 14/05/2012 08:32:50 AM 2777 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 21/05/2012 03:28:48 AM 2584 Views
For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 01:58:26 AM 2799 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 03:51:31 AM 2992 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 06:41:32 AM 2742 Views
Yeah... - 14/05/2012 07:47:16 AM 2758 Views
Re: Yeah... - 14/05/2012 04:40:49 PM 2826 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 21/05/2012 06:21:48 AM 2735 Views
Look at their foreheads - 16/05/2012 08:38:51 AM 2833 Views
Re: I think it is EG and Nyn - 03/05/2012 07:38:36 PM 2793 Views
I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 03/05/2012 09:05:58 PM 2598 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 03/05/2012 11:28:42 PM 2783 Views
Idea - 04/05/2012 10:11:05 AM 2737 Views
Re: Idea - 04/05/2012 12:09:17 PM 2744 Views
Or.... - 04/05/2012 12:19:16 PM 2599 Views
This would explain the hidden hand - 04/05/2012 08:54:00 PM 2728 Views
That's a good point. - 04/05/2012 08:59:41 PM 2937 Views
Nah... - 07/05/2012 01:56:13 PM 2786 Views
Can you draw a blade - 08/05/2012 06:00:28 AM 2738 Views
It depens on the construction of the scabbard - 10/05/2012 01:36:30 PM 2646 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 04/05/2012 02:49:51 PM 1814 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 04/05/2012 07:42:12 PM 2893 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 07/05/2012 08:02:26 PM 2648 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 07/05/2012 09:32:45 PM 2959 Views
Thanks! *NM* - 13/05/2012 10:56:06 AM 2647 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 07:25:37 PM 2592 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 07:36:09 PM 2773 Views
It's his left hand Rand lost *NM* - 03/05/2012 08:00:01 PM 2089 Views
Thanks for the imput! *NM* - 03/05/2012 08:24:59 PM 2465 Views
I does not look like Nynaeve and Moiraine - 03/05/2012 11:39:01 PM 2713 Views
Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... - 03/05/2012 11:44:50 PM 2837 Views
Re: Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... - 03/05/2012 11:51:02 PM 3653 Views
Am I the only one who sees the red dot in her forehead? *NM* - 09/05/2012 08:36:53 PM 2157 Views
looks *$%$%*@ great *NM* - 04/05/2012 02:47:00 AM 2206 Views
i quite like it! as far as the women go... - 04/05/2012 06:38:10 PM 2824 Views
No Maidens of the Spear - 05/05/2012 05:09:27 PM 2802 Views
Re: No Maidens of the Spear - 07/05/2012 02:02:36 PM 2921 Views
nynaeve with no braid?.... are we sure its not egwene? or did no one tell him the hairstyles? *NM* - 08/05/2012 06:48:49 PM 1994 Views
Nyn cut her braid off. *NM* - 08/05/2012 06:55:02 PM 2243 Views
I thought it was burned off during her test for Aes Sedaihood. *NM* - 08/05/2012 07:25:51 PM 1110 Views
I don't remember this at all *NM* - 08/05/2012 07:51:04 PM 2244 Views
Regarding the identities of the women on the back: - 09/05/2012 08:52:47 PM 3011 Views
What the hell is on the ground close to the bottom edge of the picture? *NM* - 10/05/2012 05:55:07 AM 2178 Views
A misplaced logo? *NM* - 10/05/2012 08:24:52 AM 2106 Views
Possibly one of the Seals? - 11/05/2012 01:42:13 AM 2678 Views
agreed - 10/05/2012 07:16:39 AM 2776 Views
Partially concur - 10/05/2012 01:17:31 PM 2589 Views
She's in the Pit of F*ing Doom. Ben Stein would be excited *NM* - 12/05/2012 04:22:44 AM 1058 Views
i agree with the big about how Moiraine should be depicted - 12/05/2012 11:04:53 PM 1684 Views
you can see a second weapon in Rand's belt too - 13/05/2012 08:51:34 PM 1623 Views
That looks pretty cool, better than most of the other WoT covers - 26/06/2012 07:37:29 AM 1402 Views

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