Re: You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again.
Joel Send a noteboard - 21/05/2012 01:59:15 AM
You do realize that if Gawyn had done as Egwene asked and not interfered right from the beginning, the first Bloodknife would have been caught in Egwene's warding, and she would have known Seanchan soldiers were still in the Tower, right? Instead, she got a garbled story about an assassin clothed in shadow...
So it is Gawyns fault she jumped to a false conclusion?
Definitely. She had no way of assuming the existence of ter'angreal wielding kamikaze Seanchan before the point when Gawyn interrupted one. When did do so, all he could provide was a description that matched exactly how Mesaana was seen disguised in TAR, and pointed most obviously to a channeler.
The problem was making assumptions in the first place. You know what they say happens when you assume....
Is anything ever Egwenes fault?
Lots of things are. For example, letting her pique with Siuan preventing her from fully debriefing Siuan on what happened when they came into the WT to rescue her. While Siuan herself should definitely have mentioned the Bloodknife, I hold Egwene equally responsible for not asking for all the facts.
It is also Egwene's fault that she ever let Gawyn hang around and distracted her from her task. The moment she saw that he was not ready to accept her as things stood, she should have asked him to take time off in Andor to consider things. By dithering and letting her feelings come in the way, she lost a precious opportunity to identify threats to her and other AS.
I could go on. Egwene is far from perfect.
The former is a great example of the kind of thing that frustrates me about Egwene: Assuming she always knows best, and viewing others as assets (or, more often, liabilities) rather than partners. She was at her best seeking and then employing counsel from first the WOs and then Siuan, rather than sifting them for data (or planting her own) she can turn to her own predetermined plans. That in turn puts your latter example in perspective: Gawyn was incapable of being Egwenes mindless toady, which, due to her current attitude, made them incapable of working together, nearly killing both of them.
Say we go with your premise: Her warding captures the first Bloodknife, his colleagues do not stick a knife in him on the spot to keep him silent
What colleagues? There was only one Bloodknife that first time, and Egwene was nearby to apprehend him as soon as her wards went off.
You think the other two bloodknives were on a coffee break or something? Not waiting nearby to back up their teammate (as in the second attack on Egwene)?
(as (probably) Sheriam did with the Gray Man in the Tower during Egwenes first residence) and the Tower takes him prisoner. Assuming he does not have and use a suicide pill,
This is supposed to be a magical, mind controlled pill that will enter his system even though he's bound hand and foot and hanging from the air, right? Okay...
Actually, I was thinking of something like the cyanide tablet concealed in a false tooth that Hermann Göring used to commit suicide in his cell. Their entire military careers consist of training for and then executing suicide missions; do you not think they have some pretty effective contingcies against capture? Again, that is assuming one of his two fellow Bloodknives does not simply walk up and stick a knife in his heart, as (probably) Sheriam did with the Gray Man bound hand and foot and hanging from the air in the Tower.
are you asking me to believe she could and would break sufficiently break him with interrogation to reveal there were still others lose in the Tower? Or is it more likely that his capture would simply convince her he was a lone wolf, a straggler from the previous raid who did not make it out when the others fled?
Of course she could have broken him. Remember the Chair of Remorse? And Egwene actually is a master of TAR, so she would have been able to use it even better, playing up the Bloodknife's own fears.
Also, the capture of this guy would definitely have made Siuan speak up. If there can be two...
Egwene is not exactly a master interrogator, even assuming the Chair or Remorse would be as effective against assassins so dedicated they eagerly devote their lives to training for suicide missions. Again: Their professional careers consist of training for and then executing suicide missions; they assuredly make multiple and extensive provisions for capture. Even common Seanchan foot soldiers imbibe from birth a kind of "death before dishonor" mentality the Hitler Youth could only envy; what do you think their elite assassin corps is like?
After all, Egwene still thinks that raid was a fullscale assault (which is why the ACTUAL assault will almost certainly catch her completely by surprise and unprepared.)
And here again we have your total disregard of the facts at hand. For a guy excoriating a character for supposed biases and lack of logic, you show an astounding lack of care with your own statements...
The facts at hand are that the Seanchan are planning a REAL occupation assault that will make the previous raid look like a parade ground maneuver, but Egwene is completely unaware of it (even though she should not be, given her previous Dreams involving the Seanchan.) She (mistakenly) believes the Seanchan ALREADY launched such an assault, but were bravely beaten off by the child Amyrlins heroic sa'angreal-aided stand amid Accepted and Novices. In the context of that mammoth misconception, Egwene would be naturally prone to another: That, during their sudden panicked rout, the Seanchan abandoned some of the shock troops entrusted with capturing Tar Valon, who simply failed to escape with the rest, and are reduced to desperate doomed guerilla tactics behind enemy lines until inevitably caught and executed.
Egwene faintly heard screaming as the to'raken swept past. Terrified screaming. It wasn't a full-scale attack—it was a raid! A raid to capture marath'damane!
She hesitated. Chances were good that the Seanchan had Traveling now. Nobody was safe from them, no matter how far or close they might be.
She hesitated. Chances were good that the Seanchan had Traveling now. Nobody was safe from them, no matter how far or close they might be.
You clearly skip over parts where Egwene shows that she is capable, logical, and insightful. Without the context of these moments, you then construct a picture of the character that suits your biases, and stick to it, ignoring all evidence that exists in the very books to the contrary. Its ironic how the very flaws your wrongly accuse Egwene of possessing are so blatantly evident in your own thought process.
Those were her initial thoughts, and her subsequent ones suggest she once more came to see it as an attack, due to the scale of force involved. However, even if she did not revise her first revised opinion, that only compounds her foolishness and false sense of security, because it means that, despite her realization that "Chances were good that the Seanchan had Traveling now. Nobody was safe from them, no matter how far or close they might be" she still anticipates NO full scale attack on the Tower.
Everything she knows of the Seanchan should tell her it is not only inevitable but, if they have Traveling (about which she was mistaken until, ironically, they captured Elaida during that raid,) imminent as soon a they know the Towers location. The White Tower is the locus of Aes Sedai the Seanchan consider more dangerous than rabid dogs, and a damane grab-bag. Yet the Egwene who repeatedly urged Elaida to prepare for a Seanchan assault has seemingly forgotten they exist since bloodying them and driving them from the riven Tower. She is occupied with other far more important plans, and apparently remains so even after no less than three Seanchan assassins repeatedly try to murder her in her bed.
The problem with expecting her to react rationally and logically if Gawyn did not interfere is that its belied by her habit of reacting irrationally and illogically on that and so many other occasions. She KNOWS she screwed up with Gawyn, both in behaving in a way that drove him away and in forbidding him (essentially) to save her life, errors so grave they almost killed BOTH of them. Do not hold your breath expecting her to admit either to him though; she has the benefit of "Amyrlin Infallibility." Or maybe just "Egwene Infallibility;" previous Amyrlins have repeatedly and indisputably erred, but THEY were not Egwene.
Substitute your name with Egwene's here and you'd have hit the mark quite closely.
Again, my starting point in this discussion was as someone who had consistently defended Egwenes behavior right up until ToM, but now finds it indefensible. I cannot imagine any more complete and clear statement of personal fallibility on this subject. Again, this is not about Gatorade vs. Haterade, but whether her behavior is justifiable. Despite whatever "bias" I may or may not have, I have often in the past argued her behavior is justifiable, but can do so no longer.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed.
03/05/2012 03:52:14 PM
- 4934 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed.
03/05/2012 04:08:09 PM
- 2715 Views
I think I like Callandor from TDR better..
03/05/2012 04:26:42 PM
- 2730 Views
I really like it
03/05/2012 05:54:51 PM
- 2627 Views
The sword grip is not akward or wrong
03/05/2012 06:20:54 PM
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well, for one, I didn't say it was "wrong" so don't jump down my throat.
04/05/2012 10:03:06 PM
- 2506 Views
If you think that was jumping down your throat... seriously... *NM*
07/05/2012 01:51:45 PM
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when I initially read it, it came off that way. I apologize if I misinterpreted you. *NM*
09/05/2012 04:58:13 PM
- 2015 Views
Its the sword thats not a sword (its a night light!)
04/05/2012 04:47:27 PM
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oh no fair enough! like i said, I just think it looks a little awkward.
04/05/2012 10:04:21 PM
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Well...
03/05/2012 06:09:51 PM
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I think it is EG and Nyn
03/05/2012 06:24:13 PM
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Pretty sure it's Mo and Nyn
03/05/2012 06:40:49 PM
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Yeah...
03/05/2012 07:55:32 PM
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Egwene is a distinct possibility...
03/05/2012 11:37:48 PM
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She is
04/05/2012 12:15:21 AM
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I don't know...
04/05/2012 12:25:53 AM
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Re: I don't know...
04/05/2012 02:47:02 AM
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"You expect me to wise up?" "No, Egwene, I expect you to DIE!"
11/05/2012 01:36:09 AM
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What books have you been reading?
11/05/2012 01:57:31 AM
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Egwene made many things "clear;" I dug up all the ToM quotes for a post near this time last year
11/05/2012 01:12:05 PM
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The other quotes you requested, as promised.
13/05/2012 03:29:41 AM
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You misinterpreting quotes is hardly worth requoting...
13/05/2012 11:36:21 AM
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Agreed
13/05/2012 03:39:12 PM
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Exactly...
13/05/2012 05:53:17 PM
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Never said she was evil, just wrong. Horribly and tragically wrong.
14/05/2012 02:34:27 AM
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Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls.
14/05/2012 02:21:42 AM
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For the most part, very little interpretation was required.
14/05/2012 01:58:26 AM
- 2450 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required.
14/05/2012 03:51:31 AM
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Re: I think it is EG and Nyn
03/05/2012 07:38:36 PM
- 2419 Views
I could be wrong, but I believe Rand used Calandor as a sword in the Stone.
03/05/2012 08:06:45 PM
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I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
03/05/2012 09:05:58 PM
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Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
03/05/2012 11:28:42 PM
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Idea
04/05/2012 10:11:05 AM
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Re: Idea
04/05/2012 12:09:17 PM
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This would explain the hidden hand
04/05/2012 08:54:00 PM
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Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
04/05/2012 02:49:51 PM
- 1475 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
04/05/2012 07:42:12 PM
- 2502 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
07/05/2012 08:02:26 PM
- 2323 Views
I actually found the champion/politician split between parallels very convincing.
11/05/2012 01:35:34 PM
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Re: I actually found the champion/politician split between parallels very convincing.
11/05/2012 04:06:50 PM
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Egwenes problem is her knack for seeing the error of her ways without ever LEARNING it.
13/05/2012 04:57:27 AM
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The Seanchan assassin...
13/05/2012 11:47:53 AM
- 2233 Views
You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again.
14/05/2012 02:08:26 AM
- 2269 Views
Re: You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again.
14/05/2012 04:08:11 AM
- 2308 Views
Re: You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again.
21/05/2012 01:59:15 AM
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looks a little 'naughty pirate novel' but is pretty fricken awesome! *NM*
03/05/2012 06:50:42 PM
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Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed.
03/05/2012 07:25:37 PM
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I does not look like Nynaeve and Moiraine
03/05/2012 11:39:01 PM
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Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM....
03/05/2012 11:44:50 PM
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Re: Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM....
03/05/2012 11:51:02 PM
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nynaeve with no braid?.... are we sure its not egwene? or did no one tell him the hairstyles? *NM*
08/05/2012 06:48:49 PM
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Nyn cut her braid off. *NM*
08/05/2012 06:55:02 PM
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I thought it was burned off during her test for Aes Sedaihood. *NM*
08/05/2012 07:25:51 PM
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Right, my mistake. Then she cut her hair to make it straight again. *NM*
08/05/2012 08:54:33 PM
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Regarding the identities of the women on the back:
09/05/2012 08:52:47 PM
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What the hell is on the ground close to the bottom edge of the picture? *NM*
10/05/2012 05:55:07 AM
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It's Michael Whelan's signature. I looked it up and found it in a different book cover *NM*
11/05/2012 07:05:22 AM
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That looks pretty cool, better than most of the other WoT covers
26/06/2012 07:37:29 AM
- 1092 Views