Active Users:927 Time:15/11/2024 06:28:05 AM
Re: You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again. Joel Send a noteboard - 21/05/2012 01:59:15 AM
You do realize that if Gawyn had done as Egwene asked and not interfered right from the beginning, the first Bloodknife would have been caught in Egwene's warding, and she would have known Seanchan soldiers were still in the Tower, right? Instead, she got a garbled story about an assassin clothed in shadow...

So it is Gawyns fault she jumped to a false conclusion?

Definitely. She had no way of assuming the existence of ter'angreal wielding kamikaze Seanchan before the point when Gawyn interrupted one. When did do so, all he could provide was a description that matched exactly how Mesaana was seen disguised in TAR, and pointed most obviously to a channeler.

The problem was making assumptions in the first place. You know what they say happens when you assume.... ;)

Is anything ever Egwenes fault?

Lots of things are. For example, letting her pique with Siuan preventing her from fully debriefing Siuan on what happened when they came into the WT to rescue her. While Siuan herself should definitely have mentioned the Bloodknife, I hold Egwene equally responsible for not asking for all the facts.

It is also Egwene's fault that she ever let Gawyn hang around and distracted her from her task. The moment she saw that he was not ready to accept her as things stood, she should have asked him to take time off in Andor to consider things. By dithering and letting her feelings come in the way, she lost a precious opportunity to identify threats to her and other AS.

I could go on. Egwene is far from perfect.

The former is a great example of the kind of thing that frustrates me about Egwene: Assuming she always knows best, and viewing others as assets (or, more often, liabilities) rather than partners. She was at her best seeking and then employing counsel from first the WOs and then Siuan, rather than sifting them for data (or planting her own) she can turn to her own predetermined plans. That in turn puts your latter example in perspective: Gawyn was incapable of being Egwenes mindless toady, which, due to her current attitude, made them incapable of working together, nearly killing both of them.

Say we go with your premise: Her warding captures the first Bloodknife, his colleagues do not stick a knife in him on the spot to keep him silent

What colleagues? There was only one Bloodknife that first time, and Egwene was nearby to apprehend him as soon as her wards went off.

You think the other two bloodknives were on a coffee break or something? Not waiting nearby to back up their teammate (as in the second attack on Egwene)?

(as (probably) Sheriam did with the Gray Man in the Tower during Egwenes first residence) and the Tower takes him prisoner. Assuming he does not have and use a suicide pill,

This is supposed to be a magical, mind controlled pill that will enter his system even though he's bound hand and foot and hanging from the air, right? Okay...

Actually, I was thinking of something like the cyanide tablet concealed in a false tooth that Hermann Göring used to commit suicide in his cell. Their entire military careers consist of training for and then executing suicide missions; do you not think they have some pretty effective contingcies against capture? Again, that is assuming one of his two fellow Bloodknives does not simply walk up and stick a knife in his heart, as (probably) Sheriam did with the Gray Man bound hand and foot and hanging from the air in the Tower.

are you asking me to believe she could and would break sufficiently break him with interrogation to reveal there were still others lose in the Tower? Or is it more likely that his capture would simply convince her he was a lone wolf, a straggler from the previous raid who did not make it out when the others fled?

Of course she could have broken him. Remember the Chair of Remorse? And Egwene actually is a master of TAR, so she would have been able to use it even better, playing up the Bloodknife's own fears.

Also, the capture of this guy would definitely have made Siuan speak up. If there can be two...

Egwene is not exactly a master interrogator, even assuming the Chair or Remorse would be as effective against assassins so dedicated they eagerly devote their lives to training for suicide missions. Again: Their professional careers consist of training for and then executing suicide missions; they assuredly make multiple and extensive provisions for capture. Even common Seanchan foot soldiers imbibe from birth a kind of "death before dishonor" mentality the Hitler Youth could only envy; what do you think their elite assassin corps is like?

After all, Egwene still thinks that raid was a fullscale assault (which is why the ACTUAL assault will almost certainly catch her completely by surprise and unprepared.)

And here again we have your total disregard of the facts at hand. For a guy excoriating a character for supposed biases and lack of logic, you show an astounding lack of care with your own statements...

The facts at hand are that the Seanchan are planning a REAL occupation assault that will make the previous raid look like a parade ground maneuver, but Egwene is completely unaware of it (even though she should not be, given her previous Dreams involving the Seanchan.) She (mistakenly) believes the Seanchan ALREADY launched such an assault, but were bravely beaten off by the child Amyrlins heroic sa'angreal-aided stand amid Accepted and Novices. In the context of that mammoth misconception, Egwene would be naturally prone to another: That, during their sudden panicked rout, the Seanchan abandoned some of the shock troops entrusted with capturing Tar Valon, who simply failed to escape with the rest, and are reduced to desperate doomed guerilla tactics behind enemy lines until inevitably caught and executed.

Egwene faintly heard screaming as the to'raken swept past. Terrified screaming. It wasn't a full-scale attack—it was a raid! A raid to capture marath'damane!

She hesitated. Chances were good that the Seanchan had Traveling now. Nobody was safe from them, no matter how far or close they might be.


You clearly skip over parts where Egwene shows that she is capable, logical, and insightful. Without the context of these moments, you then construct a picture of the character that suits your biases, and stick to it, ignoring all evidence that exists in the very books to the contrary. Its ironic how the very flaws your wrongly accuse Egwene of possessing are so blatantly evident in your own thought process.

Those were her initial thoughts, and her subsequent ones suggest she once more came to see it as an attack, due to the scale of force involved. However, even if she did not revise her first revised opinion, that only compounds her foolishness and false sense of security, because it means that, despite her realization that "Chances were good that the Seanchan had Traveling now. Nobody was safe from them, no matter how far or close they might be" she still anticipates NO full scale attack on the Tower.

Everything she knows of the Seanchan should tell her it is not only inevitable but, if they have Traveling (about which she was mistaken until, ironically, they captured Elaida during that raid,) imminent as soon a they know the Towers location. The White Tower is the locus of Aes Sedai the Seanchan consider more dangerous than rabid dogs, and a damane grab-bag. Yet the Egwene who repeatedly urged Elaida to prepare for a Seanchan assault has seemingly forgotten they exist since bloodying them and driving them from the riven Tower. She is occupied with other far more important plans, and apparently remains so even after no less than three Seanchan assassins repeatedly try to murder her in her bed.

The problem with expecting her to react rationally and logically if Gawyn did not interfere is that its belied by her habit of reacting irrationally and illogically on that and so many other occasions. She KNOWS she screwed up with Gawyn, both in behaving in a way that drove him away and in forbidding him (essentially) to save her life, errors so grave they almost killed BOTH of them. Do not hold your breath expecting her to admit either to him though; she has the benefit of "Amyrlin Infallibility." Or maybe just "Egwene Infallibility;" previous Amyrlins have repeatedly and indisputably erred, but THEY were not Egwene. :P

Substitute your name with Egwene's here and you'd have hit the mark quite closely.

Again, my starting point in this discussion was as someone who had consistently defended Egwenes behavior right up until ToM, but now finds it indefensible. I cannot imagine any more complete and clear statement of personal fallibility on this subject. Again, this is not about Gatorade vs. Haterade, but whether her behavior is justifiable. Despite whatever "bias" I may or may not have, I have often in the past argued her behavior is justifiable, but can do so no longer.
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The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 03:52:14 PM 4934 Views
It's pretty damn cool. - 03/05/2012 03:59:36 PM 2580 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 04:08:09 PM 2715 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 04:17:19 PM 2682 Views
the pit of doom is hot - 12/06/2012 01:57:18 AM 2178 Views
I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. - 03/05/2012 04:26:42 PM 2730 Views
yes. I sincerely doubt she has that kind of competency - 03/05/2012 05:52:22 PM 2600 Views
Re: I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. - 04/05/2012 11:10:49 AM 2450 Views
Heh - Cannoli-baiting *NM* - 04/05/2012 04:46:51 PM 1952 Views
*NM* - 05/05/2012 09:04:15 PM 1872 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 05:06:19 PM 2353 Views
I really like it - 03/05/2012 05:54:51 PM 2627 Views
The sword grip is not akward or wrong - 03/05/2012 06:20:54 PM 2368 Views
something like this? - 03/05/2012 06:46:59 PM 2938 Views
Its the sword thats not a sword (its a night light!) - 04/05/2012 04:47:27 PM 2370 Views
oh no fair enough! like i said, I just think it looks a little awkward. - 04/05/2012 10:04:21 PM 2314 Views
Me, too! - 12/05/2012 01:18:06 AM 2425 Views
Well... - 03/05/2012 06:09:51 PM 2730 Views
I think it is EG and Nyn - 03/05/2012 06:24:13 PM 2415 Views
Pretty sure it's Mo and Nyn - 03/05/2012 06:40:49 PM 2466 Views
Yeah... - 03/05/2012 07:55:32 PM 2375 Views
when did Nynaeve cut her hair? - 08/05/2012 07:33:04 PM 3939 Views
It was burned off during her testing for the shawl. - 12/06/2012 02:53:43 AM 3118 Views
Egwene is a distinct possibility... - 03/05/2012 11:37:48 PM 2522 Views
She is - 04/05/2012 12:15:21 AM 2609 Views
I don't know... - 04/05/2012 12:25:53 AM 2345 Views
Re: I don't know... - 04/05/2012 02:47:02 AM 2510 Views
I'm not disagreeing with most of that... - 08/05/2012 02:58:53 AM 2214 Views
"You expect me to wise up?" "No, Egwene, I expect you to DIE!" - 11/05/2012 01:36:09 AM 2441 Views
What books have you been reading? - 11/05/2012 01:57:31 AM 2464 Views
I agree - 11/05/2012 02:51:38 PM 2553 Views
The other quotes you requested, as promised. - 13/05/2012 03:29:41 AM 2529 Views
You misinterpreting quotes is hardly worth requoting... - 13/05/2012 11:36:21 AM 2234 Views
Agreed - 13/05/2012 03:39:12 PM 2335 Views
Exactly... - 13/05/2012 05:53:17 PM 2300 Views
Never said she was evil, just wrong. Horribly and tragically wrong. - 14/05/2012 02:34:27 AM 2355 Views
- 14/05/2012 04:23:21 AM 2262 Views
Re- - 21/05/2012 02:43:49 AM 2730 Views
Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 14/05/2012 02:21:42 AM 2324 Views
Then she wouldn't be a "protagonist" - 14/05/2012 04:38:34 AM 2287 Views
Again, I never said she is or will become evil. - 21/05/2012 03:03:32 AM 2437 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 14/05/2012 08:32:50 AM 2393 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 21/05/2012 03:28:48 AM 2229 Views
For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 01:58:26 AM 2450 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 03:51:31 AM 2632 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 06:41:32 AM 2393 Views
Yeah... - 14/05/2012 07:47:16 AM 2398 Views
Re: Yeah... - 14/05/2012 04:40:49 PM 2457 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 21/05/2012 06:21:48 AM 2370 Views
Look at their foreheads - 16/05/2012 08:38:51 AM 2462 Views
Re: I think it is EG and Nyn - 03/05/2012 07:38:36 PM 2419 Views
I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 03/05/2012 09:05:58 PM 2267 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 03/05/2012 11:28:42 PM 2403 Views
Idea - 04/05/2012 10:11:05 AM 2396 Views
Re: Idea - 04/05/2012 12:09:17 PM 2380 Views
Or.... - 04/05/2012 12:19:16 PM 2262 Views
This would explain the hidden hand - 04/05/2012 08:54:00 PM 2412 Views
That's a good point. - 04/05/2012 08:59:41 PM 2537 Views
Nah... - 07/05/2012 01:56:13 PM 2470 Views
Can you draw a blade - 08/05/2012 06:00:28 AM 2395 Views
It depens on the construction of the scabbard - 10/05/2012 01:36:30 PM 2313 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 04/05/2012 02:49:51 PM 1475 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 04/05/2012 07:42:12 PM 2502 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 07/05/2012 08:02:26 PM 2323 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 07/05/2012 09:32:45 PM 2535 Views
Thanks! *NM* - 13/05/2012 10:56:06 AM 2295 Views
I actually found the champion/politician split between parallels very convincing. - 11/05/2012 01:35:34 PM 2408 Views
Re: I actually found the champion/politician split between parallels very convincing. - 11/05/2012 04:06:50 PM 2186 Views
Egwene-Mat... - 11/05/2012 09:05:07 PM 2283 Views
Re: Egwene-Mat... - 12/05/2012 05:31:29 AM 2619 Views
Egwenes problem is her knack for seeing the error of her ways without ever LEARNING it. - 13/05/2012 04:57:27 AM 2577 Views
The Seanchan assassin... - 13/05/2012 11:47:53 AM 2233 Views
You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again. - 14/05/2012 02:08:26 AM 2269 Views
Re: You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again. - 14/05/2012 04:08:11 AM 2308 Views
Re: You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again. - 21/05/2012 01:59:15 AM 2328 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 07:25:37 PM 2274 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 07:36:09 PM 2389 Views
It's his left hand Rand lost *NM* - 03/05/2012 08:00:01 PM 1892 Views
Thanks for the imput! *NM* - 03/05/2012 08:24:59 PM 2265 Views
I does not look like Nynaeve and Moiraine - 03/05/2012 11:39:01 PM 2345 Views
Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... - 03/05/2012 11:44:50 PM 2487 Views
Re: Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... - 03/05/2012 11:51:02 PM 3328 Views
Am I the only one who sees the red dot in her forehead? *NM* - 09/05/2012 08:36:53 PM 1927 Views
looks *$%$%*@ great *NM* - 04/05/2012 02:47:00 AM 2004 Views
i quite like it! as far as the women go... - 04/05/2012 06:38:10 PM 2476 Views
No Maidens of the Spear - 05/05/2012 05:09:27 PM 2471 Views
Re: No Maidens of the Spear - 07/05/2012 02:02:36 PM 2569 Views
nynaeve with no braid?.... are we sure its not egwene? or did no one tell him the hairstyles? *NM* - 08/05/2012 06:48:49 PM 1818 Views
Nyn cut her braid off. *NM* - 08/05/2012 06:55:02 PM 2052 Views
I thought it was burned off during her test for Aes Sedaihood. *NM* - 08/05/2012 07:25:51 PM 895 Views
I don't remember this at all *NM* - 08/05/2012 07:51:04 PM 2041 Views
Regarding the identities of the women on the back: - 09/05/2012 08:52:47 PM 2576 Views
What the hell is on the ground close to the bottom edge of the picture? *NM* - 10/05/2012 05:55:07 AM 1981 Views
A misplaced logo? *NM* - 10/05/2012 08:24:52 AM 1920 Views
Possibly one of the Seals? - 11/05/2012 01:42:13 AM 2386 Views
agreed - 10/05/2012 07:16:39 AM 2464 Views
Partially concur - 10/05/2012 01:17:31 PM 2270 Views
She's in the Pit of F*ing Doom. Ben Stein would be excited *NM* - 12/05/2012 04:22:44 AM 870 Views
i agree with the big about how Moiraine should be depicted - 12/05/2012 11:04:53 PM 1315 Views
you can see a second weapon in Rand's belt too - 13/05/2012 08:51:34 PM 1263 Views
That looks pretty cool, better than most of the other WoT covers - 26/06/2012 07:37:29 AM 1092 Views

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