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Re: Egwene under compulsion Datakim Send a noteboard - 20/05/2012 06:37:23 AM

Indeed. That "compulsion" is called Siuan Sanche, who convinced Egwene she was wrong and to adopt this vision.


My point here was that Egwene accepted Siuans view very easily. I mean it would be one thing if there were no side-effects from the oaths, but unless I am mistaken Egwene already knew at this point that the oaths cut the lifespan of the user in half.

And all Siuan could offer for her pro-oaths view was that they are what define Aes Sedai. That seemed to me to be a very weak explanation for either dying 50% too early, or being forced to retire from the tower to some knitting circle, which in practise would mean sending the most experienced AS in the tower to the pasture.

I would have thought that Egwene, not having been "brainwashed" by years as a tower initiate should have been able to realise that Aes Sedai don't suddenly stop being Aes Sedai just because they do the smart thing and give up the oaths, and that there are other traditions that can be made up to add cohesion to the Aes Sedai, and other actions the Aes Sedai can take to make the population at large trust them (such as free healing stations in every city just to give an example).

Thats why I brought this up as one possible candidate.


That compulsion is called common sense, and even then Egwene made a secret moral decision to free Logain. That was before Halima started messing up her concentration with blinding headaches, and Halima was the one pushing to have Logain killed.


Sure, but the point was that maybe Halima enhanced aspects that were already there. So basically, Egwene was distrustfull of Rand for several reasons, and Halima might have taken advantage of that by strenghtening that distrust even more, making it more difficult for Egwene to work with Rand.


WTF? Aran'gar was long gone when Egwene could have made any such decision.


The Seanchan are the boogeyman of Egwenes (and for valid reason given the torture) and there is no doubt that of all the groups around, a tower filled with channelers would be a primary target for Seanchan attack. You don't need to be a dreamer to predict that the Seanchan would very much like destroy the tower.

Though I admit this is the least likely possibility. Mostly I was just throwing examples where Halima could have done what you yourself suggested and used compulsion+psychology to create more subtle and longer lasting compulsions by weakening/strenghtening feelings and thoughts that were already present in Egwenes mind, rather than installing forcible and blatant compulsions like "kill the dragon reborn" which Egwenes mind would instantly try to fight off as hard as possible.


That's because, as we've learned from Elza, Verin was very clever and compelled all the sisters to find in themselves the deepest motives they could find to swear an oath to TDR. It's the kind of cleverness you'd expect from Graendal. You can't get people to do what you wish unless you understand their psychology really well and find the right triggers and buttons to use.


But who is to say that Halima might not have done the same thing? Or something similar. Moghedien was never implied to be a master compeller, and even she knew that if you worked with the mind rather than against it, you could create compulsions that last a lifetime (her compulsion to LIVE). Halima may not be as good psychologist as Graendal, but that does not necessarily mean she was totally incompetent. Graendal was best of the best. Halima might have just been average compared to her, but even average might be sufficient. Especially since Halima had quite a bit of time to observe Egwene and learn her habits and what makes her tick.


The descriptions of Compulsion in TGS broke the established working of Compulsion in the previous books. Previously, it was mostly about psychology, and a very deft touch at casting the net on the right areas of the brains so you interfere with just what thought processes or emotions you mean to alter, which is why Graendal is the best. Brandon got it wrong that it's about casting complex weaves in which the orders are included... he forgot it's well established Graendal's speciality isn't brain anatomy or messing in the brain with the OP (Semirhage can do this, to stimulate nerve centers etc.) but non-OP psychology....


Actually, in Lord of Chaos chapter 6 we get a POV from Sammael, who observers Graendals "pets" who have suffered compulsion similar to that boy Nynaeve found. There Sammael thinks that its possible to use compulsion like a "hammer" and totally rewrite a persons entire mind (which Graendal does to those near her), but its also possible to use compulsion with such delicacy that its nearly undetectable. So both types of compulsions were present in the series prior to TGS, and Graendal is master at both. Brandon did not invent this.


There's zero evidence of Egwene being compelled about anything. We've got countless POVs and none of her decisions are unexplained/unmotivated.


Theres still one book to go. Truthfully, I kinda agree that there should have been some hints by now, but its still possible for some very subtle "Verin-like" compulsion to be present that will suddenly manifest in the meeting at FoM.


The biggest piece of evidence Halima never compelled Egwene (who isn't a good subject at all for Compulsion.. you forget where her great Dreaming talent comes from: her willpower!) is that she had to use Sheriam and Delana and pressure them so much to get to know what Egwene was up to, and Aran'gar beat Sheriam because Sheriam wasn't getting enough information to her in time!


This could be explained by Halima not wanting to use too rough compulsion on Egwene and damaging her mind or doing anything that would alter her to the point of suspicion. The "theory" I am suggesting is that Egwene is under some very slight and subtle compulsion and nothing more. Compulsion closer to to Verins compulsion rather than the type of compulsion Graendal uses on her pets.

If Halima had used compulsion to interrogate Egwene directly, she would have first had to use compulsion to make Egwene talk, and then actually used even more compulsion to erase her memories of that. And we know from Nynaeve that compulsion that blatant (blocked memories) can be broken through by someone with a strong willpower. Perfecly reasonable then that Halima would not have wanted to risk Egwene suddenly recalling those memories.
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Egwene under compulsion - 17/05/2012 05:40:31 AM 1677 Views
Re: Egwene under compulsion - 17/05/2012 08:27:50 AM 948 Views
To add to that - 17/05/2012 01:46:02 PM 811 Views
Re: To add to that - 18/05/2012 06:04:07 AM 827 Views
Re: To add to that - 18/05/2012 08:58:23 AM 696 Views
Re: To add to that - 19/05/2012 04:00:49 AM 706 Views
Re: To add to that - 19/05/2012 11:04:14 AM 655 Views
Re: To add to that - 20/05/2012 05:38:31 AM 645 Views
I think you are misunderstanding what I meant - 18/05/2012 04:22:38 PM 658 Views
Re: Egwene under compulsion - 18/05/2012 11:31:01 PM 822 Views
Except we know Aran'gar was punished in some way for "losing control of her charge" - 18/05/2012 11:47:44 PM 607 Views
Re: Except we know Aran'gar was punished in some way for "losing control of her charge" - 19/05/2012 12:31:10 AM 818 Views
Yes I know. That's the point we are discussing. - 19/05/2012 12:44:27 AM 586 Views
Re: Yes I know. That's the point we are discussing. - 20/05/2012 07:01:23 AM 699 Views
Fair point on Ishamael - 20/05/2012 03:36:32 PM 732 Views
Re: Fair point on Ishamael - 21/05/2012 01:56:30 PM 725 Views
You are over simplifying it I think - 21/05/2012 03:33:48 PM 734 Views
Re: Except we know Aran'gar was punished in some way for "losing control of her charge" - 20/05/2012 06:54:40 AM 639 Views
Well, Elza did somehow... - 20/05/2012 11:04:56 AM 643 Views
It happened off screen - 20/05/2012 03:44:40 PM 649 Views
Re: It happened off screen - 21/05/2012 01:45:26 PM 625 Views
Re: Egwene under compulsion - 19/05/2012 12:05:32 AM 940 Views
And lets not forget that Egwene knows to counter compulsion... - 19/05/2012 01:13:39 AM 713 Views
The Headaches - 19/05/2012 04:47:23 AM 694 Views
Re: The Headaches - 19/05/2012 05:12:26 PM 763 Views
Re: Egwene under compulsion - 20/05/2012 06:37:23 AM 644 Views
Like I said before... - 20/05/2012 07:30:58 PM 673 Views
Re: Like I said before... - 20/05/2012 08:57:17 PM 584 Views
Finding a weave and recognizing the symptoms are different things - 21/05/2012 03:13:12 AM 560 Views
Re: Finding a weave and recognizing the symptoms are different things - 21/05/2012 01:32:30 PM 630 Views
No argument that a subtle compulsion would be necessary - 21/05/2012 01:48:06 PM 664 Views
Re: No argument that a subtle compulsion would be necessary - 21/05/2012 01:57:44 PM 634 Views
Re: No argument that a subtle compulsion would be necessary - 21/05/2012 02:44:09 PM 692 Views
Re: Like I said before... - 21/05/2012 01:21:34 PM 552 Views
Re: Like I said before... - 21/05/2012 06:00:35 PM 706 Views
Seems logical to me, for whatever that is worth. - 21/05/2012 07:28:11 PM 512 Views

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