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Re: The Headaches DomA Send a noteboard - 19/05/2012 05:12:26 PM
That's because, as we've learned from Elza, Verin was very clever and compelled all the sisters to find in themselves the deepest motives they could find to swear an oath to TDR. It's the kind of cleverness you'd expect from Graendal. You can't get people to do what you wish unless you understand their psychology really well and find the right triggers and buttons to use.

The descriptions of Compulsion in TGS broke the established working of Compulsion in the previous books. Previously, it was mostly about psychology, and a very deft touch at casting the net on the right areas of the brains so you interfere with just what thought processes or emotions you mean to alter, which is why Graendal is the best. Brandon got it wrong that it's about casting complex weaves in which the orders are included... he forgot it's well established Graendal's speciality isn't brain anatomy or messing in the brain with the OP (Semirhage can do this, to stimulate nerve centers etc.) but non-OP psychology....

There's zero evidence of Egwene being compelled about anything. We've got countless POVs and none of her decisions are unexplained/unmotivated.

The biggest piece of evidence Halima never compelled Egwene (who isn't a good subject at all for Compulsion.. you forget where her great Dreaming talent comes from: her willpower!) is that she had to use Sheriam and Delana and pressure them so much to get to know what Egwene was up to, and Aran'gar beat Sheriam because Sheriam wasn't getting enough information to her in time! If Aran'gar was compelling Egwene, she could ask Egwene for whatever information she wanted while she was under the weaves, and with the headaches Halima had no shortage of occasions. The other related confirmation Halima didn't have her under compulsion is how she constantly asked questions or tried to remain around when Egwene had meetings, to spy.

What Halima did was give Egwene blinding headaches, which had two advantages: justify being around her more to spy, and interfering with her Dreaming ability which could become dangerous to the Shadow (as Moridin well knew, he's a Dreamer himself). It also made Egwene crankier, tired and less concentrated. Halima's interference worked but not so well. Egwene still Dreamed, if not as much as usual.


As you point out Egwene would not be a good candidate for compulsion because she is very strong willed. It does not mean that Aran'gar would not at least try to use it on her.
In some cases Aran'gar could have totally failed, or totally succeeded, or partially succeeded.

Just a theory: Aran'gar attempts compulsion on Egwene but she does not succumb to it, she does however start experiencing some bad headaches as her subconscious fights the directives. Aran'gar notices the results of the compulsion attempt and decides to purposely intensify the headaches. The purpose of this would be to interfere with Egwene's dreaming talent, to provide a reason for Aran'gar to remain close by, and to make her more irritable and stressed out in order to make her more pliable. Aran'gar could use the time around Egwene to experiment, (which fears to play on, which insecurities to use, which likes/dislikes that could be expanded on).
Aran'gar had a lot of time and many opportunities to try many different things.


The headaches were just a way for Halima to mess with Egwene's mental state (tiredness/bad sleep, concentration etc.) and to get a motive to sleep near Egwene to be able to interfere with her Dreams.

It's all there in Aran'gar's POV: her skills with Dreams/TAR were limited, so she needed to be very close. To be very close while Egwene slept, she needed a reason for Egwene to ask her to sleep nearby, and that reason was the headaches Aran'gar created and that she posed as having the skills to help with. Once again, that's a confirmation that Aran'gar didn't use Compulsion on Egwene: she had to manipulate her the mundane way, she had no "magical" influence over Egwene that succesful compulsion would have given her. Halima may well have been forwarned Moghedien taught Egwene about Compulsion, the weave and how it worked. Add to that her strong will, that probably made it very dangerous to attempt - Egwene's inconscious would recognize and resist that weave with all her being.

When the headaches still didn't give her enough time near Egwene, she increased them and killed two of her maids, who among their daily tasks, were helping Egwene from supper to sleeptime, and sleeping on a cot nearby. They rotated. What happened after their deaths was that Chesa served Egwene all day, and often at night Halima offered to take over, soothe her headaches than do the maid duties to put her to sleep (there are many people very suspicious of Chesa now that Sheriam, who provided her, is confirmed as BA. Though some think all there was there was that Sheriam tried to use Chesa as spy on Egwene without Chesa being a DF, and as Halima used Sheriam as spy she left Sheriam's spy alone...) But Egwene has kept her distances to the end, she liked Halima but found her nosy (and never forgot she was also the secretary of a Sitter).

I find that in the end, most people with big Compulsion theories simply don't understand well how Egwene reasons and formed her opinions. Most of Egwene's thinking about Rand for instance comes from how she reacted to what happened from Tear to Egwene's departure for Salidar: eg: Moiraine suddenly acting like his servant and Rand playing the ruler often with arrogance, how things have gone between Egwene and Rand after Moiraine's departure, the dealings between Rand and the WO, Rand's arrogance with Tower envoys, the fact the Rebel embassy suddenly went out of contact, Rand's efforts to find out where the Rebels were, the fact he believed Alviarin would help him, his sending of Mat to Salidar and so on. Then there came all sort of distorted news/interpretations, like the apparent compulsion of AS in Cairhien (which did happen. Egwene simply mistook what Verin did for something Rand did), and the fears he had acquired an Aes Sedai advisor Siuan always thought was a DF.

At first, Egwene did want to deal with Rand on a more personal level, reason with him directly (and bring him on the side of the rebels). Siuan convinced her she couldn't possibly do this, politically. It's Siuan who is the most fearful and circumspect about Rand, she convinced Egwene to put any notion of dealing with Rand herself out of her head.

Egwene's change of mind about the Oaths? It's Siuan again. Egwene explicitely said so herself.

The Seanchan? Egwene's opinions come from a traumatic personal experience as damane. She's been their slave. She didn't manage to convince the Aes Sedai, all of them from Siuan to Lelaine to even the sisters in the Tower didn't see any way the Seanchan could ever get close without them knowing it weeks in advance as their armies moved... so they dithered, and rejected Egwene's dreams. Egwene stepped out of a Dream once that was showing her how to solve the conflict. She refused to see it to the end because it involved her and a Seanchan woman "helping each other". That's nothing to do with Compulsion, Egwene hates the Seanchan bitterly since Toman's Head.




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Egwene under compulsion - 17/05/2012 05:40:31 AM 1662 Views
Re: Egwene under compulsion - 17/05/2012 08:27:50 AM 932 Views
To add to that - 17/05/2012 01:46:02 PM 800 Views
Re: To add to that - 18/05/2012 06:04:07 AM 816 Views
Re: To add to that - 18/05/2012 08:58:23 AM 684 Views
Re: To add to that - 19/05/2012 04:00:49 AM 693 Views
Re: To add to that - 19/05/2012 11:04:14 AM 646 Views
Re: To add to that - 20/05/2012 05:38:31 AM 630 Views
I think you are misunderstanding what I meant - 18/05/2012 04:22:38 PM 645 Views
Re: Egwene under compulsion - 18/05/2012 11:31:01 PM 810 Views
Except we know Aran'gar was punished in some way for "losing control of her charge" - 18/05/2012 11:47:44 PM 595 Views
Re: Except we know Aran'gar was punished in some way for "losing control of her charge" - 19/05/2012 12:31:10 AM 802 Views
Yes I know. That's the point we are discussing. - 19/05/2012 12:44:27 AM 579 Views
Re: Yes I know. That's the point we are discussing. - 20/05/2012 07:01:23 AM 692 Views
Fair point on Ishamael - 20/05/2012 03:36:32 PM 721 Views
Re: Fair point on Ishamael - 21/05/2012 01:56:30 PM 712 Views
You are over simplifying it I think - 21/05/2012 03:33:48 PM 724 Views
Re: Except we know Aran'gar was punished in some way for "losing control of her charge" - 20/05/2012 06:54:40 AM 628 Views
Well, Elza did somehow... - 20/05/2012 11:04:56 AM 632 Views
It happened off screen - 20/05/2012 03:44:40 PM 636 Views
Re: It happened off screen - 21/05/2012 01:45:26 PM 617 Views
Re: Egwene under compulsion - 19/05/2012 12:05:32 AM 927 Views
And lets not forget that Egwene knows to counter compulsion... - 19/05/2012 01:13:39 AM 695 Views
The Headaches - 19/05/2012 04:47:23 AM 686 Views
Re: The Headaches - 19/05/2012 05:12:26 PM 753 Views
Re: Egwene under compulsion - 20/05/2012 06:37:23 AM 629 Views
Like I said before... - 20/05/2012 07:30:58 PM 662 Views
Re: Like I said before... - 20/05/2012 08:57:17 PM 566 Views
Finding a weave and recognizing the symptoms are different things - 21/05/2012 03:13:12 AM 550 Views
Re: Finding a weave and recognizing the symptoms are different things - 21/05/2012 01:32:30 PM 621 Views
No argument that a subtle compulsion would be necessary - 21/05/2012 01:48:06 PM 652 Views
Re: No argument that a subtle compulsion would be necessary - 21/05/2012 01:57:44 PM 622 Views
Re: No argument that a subtle compulsion would be necessary - 21/05/2012 02:44:09 PM 679 Views
Re: Like I said before... - 21/05/2012 01:21:34 PM 542 Views
Re: Like I said before... - 21/05/2012 06:00:35 PM 692 Views
Seems logical to me, for whatever that is worth. - 21/05/2012 07:28:11 PM 496 Views

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