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Re: Very possible DomA Send a noteboard - 18/05/2012 11:02:20 PM
I'm almost 100% sure she's a darkfriend


Verin made an interesting comment about her when she was working on figuring Cadsuane's allegences out before she left Rand and Company in Tear. And there is the question of who told Semirhage/Shadar Haran/Elza about the wards on Cadsuane's box ... It's been debated on a few sites!


Shaidar Haran didn't need anyone to tell him there was a ward on the box. He's a Myrrdraal. Remember how Moiraine used to warn that most of her wards but the one meant to forewarn about Shadowspawn would attract the Fades. For the same reason, Shaidar Haran didn't need anyone to tell him where to look for what Cadsuane had hidden.

Not that Sorilea can't be a darkfriend (there's nothing very obvious to suggest she is, though), but the whole "there needs to be someone who warned SH about the ward" angle doesn't hold water as evidence.

There may be something to the fact it happened when Cadsuane was meeting the WO, but this too can be totally circumstancial considering Elza could easily have been keeping watch to spot when Cadsune left the building. It also doesn't point to Sorilea in particular, and Sorilea gave Cadsuane the key advice about Rand's psychology that made her find the right approach to be accepted at Rand's side. She also kept working with Cadsuane after she was cast out, further dismissing the possibility Sorilea wanted Cadsuane out of the way.

The idea that Sorilea's real aim in Cairhien was to give Cadsuane Traveling so she'd use Alana to find Rand and thus place Verin and Elza as spies near him is the most interesting bit, but sounds a bit far fetched, when you consider the Forsaken already knew quite well Rand was in Far Madding and it's not Elza/Verin who could help there. Beside, there's zero evidence Elza and Verin got any orders from a Forsaken concerning the Cleansing (to stop him or kill him), so it looks very unlikely the Shadow knew they had joined Rand by then. It's at the manor there were signs Elza received orders, as she was starting to plot about killing people and this may have been because she knew a Forsaken got involved (She seemed to act from her Compulsion, so it may be Verin herself she now thought a threat to Rand! It's supported by the fact Elza put no such plan in motion, and Verin's the one wo left at the time). This is coherent with the fact it's not long after Verin decided to escape, right after the Shadow's attack. Could be the signs of TG that convinced her it was time, could be her fear she could receive orders soon she couldn't obey, or a mix of both.

The plan of Cadsuane with Amys and Sorilea was hardly a bad plan. At the time Cadsuane presented it, nothing had happened yet to make think it might backfire badly. They just all failed to see how much Rand changed after the episode with Semirhage. Rand was just too far gone in his insanity/paranoia to react as they hoped he would.

The big mistake in all of this was not to understand their only slim hope to make it work was to let Nynaeve handle everything, including Tam - and that mistake is to lay at Cadsuane's feet, as she underestimated badly Nynaeve's maturity and experience as Wisdom.

Rand was too far gone for it to have had much success, what the Pattern needed was a huge shock, and Cadsuane, Sorilea and even Nynaeve were caught in Rand's ta'veren web. The whole storyline is a string of missed signs, small mistakes - all leading to the chain reaction the Wheel needed to provoke the moment of Epiphany. There's nothing there to suggest any manipulation of Cadsuane.

The whole process by which the WO are chosen, and their training, makes it rather unlikely one of them would embrace the Shadow. They would basically need to be delusional (rejecting all they see at Rhuidean) or genocidal (hating the Aiel so much they want to destroy them). Another factor is the communal role of the WO which is so strong, so dedicated to social service. The WO are trained to be selfless, Aviendha's whole storyline was about giving up what she liked to understand her role in life was to serve her people, that her Ability her sept needed. That's not exactly a crucible to form DF, who are egoistic, individualistic/concerned all the time with their interests.
It's only among one clan, the Shaido, that a culture of denial developped among its corrupted WO, and it's seriously suggested that it all originates from the clan losing gender balance, with weak and too influencable clan and sept chiefs, unable to be the necessary match to their roofmistresses and WO, which Sevanna used to gain power. The Shaido leaders tried to establish a full matriarchy, those whose role is to be concerned with the management of the septs, and matters of ethics and balance and inter-clan diplomacy, seized control of the warriors as well, and that became an explosive combo. The only Aiel DF we've seen so far was a Maiden. A Shaido Maiden, from Sevana's sept (see a pattern here?)

It would be hard for WO to exist as DF, unless a whole secret group of them emerged. They are mostly concerned with their sept, and then less in clan business (the septs are pretty far apart), and more rarely they have to interfere in inter-clan matters. The WO deal mostly with other WO and roofmistresses. It's much easier for groups of DF to form within septs or societies, and of the two, it's in septs it's most likely nest of DF might emerge (Aiel are unforgiving to DF, spreading those beliefs to fellow society brothers/sisters from other septs/clans would be extremely risky business). So far, we know of one very corrupted sept among the Aiel, which had both a corrupted power-blind leader and one DF, and it's the Jumai Shaido (I was about to say, look in that sept for more, but in truth the only living Jumai we still have is Sevanna herself. They may have had DF WO, but we don't know any Jumai Shaido WO).

The group with Amys, Bair, Sorilea, Melaine have always worked hard and with determination. It's largely thanks to their efforts the clan chiefs have not rebelled against Rand in the Arad Doman fiasco. There's no evidence one of these WO tried to worsen the gap forming between Rand and the Chiefs (which a DF would have done). Melaine is shown as a bit more refractory to changes, but the others make her come to terms. Bair has made a mistake or two, but nothing her culture can't explain (like worrying more about keeping the clans together after Rand was kidnapped, but overlooking that Colavaere taking the throne may be something to worry about). After the LOC kidnapping, they all worked hard to patch things up, again with no evidence one of them tried to use as a wedge to divide the clans. It appears if there's DF among the Aiel leaders near Rand, they're at the periphery of the core WO (the most "difficult" CC about Rand have WO who have played very small roles so far), or perhaps one of the clan chiefs (so far it's always been the chiefs grumbling at time, in Cairhien like in AD, and the WO tying to patch things up. For the WO, in the last books, I'd rather start looking among those the most deadset against the Seanchan as we know it's one of Moridin's goal to keep Tuon and Rand apart, but so far the two very angry are Aviendha and Amys! The Maiden who told Aviendha and Amys the Seanchan were flaunting their Shaido captives - which could be a plot of Graendal as she had to keep Rand from a Seanchan agreement and we've seen no real evidence of efforts there, was Coranna, who is a background character seen only once in ACOS. The reactions of the WO when Aviendha returns may hold be the real clues.

This message last edited by DomA on 18/05/2012 at 11:41:36 PM
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Cadsuane *NM* - 08/05/2012 09:48:07 AM 540 Views
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Re: Very possible - 18/05/2012 11:02:20 PM 979 Views
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